CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[Tom ServoMST3K]

It would have been so much better for the Phoenix market if the team had just moved in '09.

The extended saga has salted the earth imo.

 

[Boris Zubov]

It would have been so much better for the Phoenix market if the team had just moved in '09.

The extended saga has salted the earth imo.

The NHL was overdue for a shit load of bad karma from extorting that $50M from Glendale.

 

[paul-laus]

At this point, I think they're at least 5 years away from a new arena (if it ever comes).

And that’s why this has to come to some sort of resolution for the love of god. It’s been hockey’s version of purgatory for far too long. To be completely honest, I’m in utter disbelief that the NHL is prepared to let the franchise play a lame duck season at the Mullett when the hopes for an arena now seem so distant….unless the current Suns owner is more willing to play ball than the previous one, I just don’t see how they avoid pulling up stakes eventually…

 

[TheGreenTBer]

It would have been so much better for the Phoenix market if the team had just moved in '09.

The extended saga has salted the earth imo.

I kind of agree.

Not only has it put the existing fans through a long, drawn-out hell, there's no guarantee it was even worth it since they still might leave anyways and it's basically been like slowly ripping a band-aid off over 15 years worth of dense hair and skin.

They might have been in front of LV on the expansion list a few years ago (way bigger city), and given how LV has done there's no reason Phoenix couldn't have done the same thing with a proper arena and owner. Maybe that wouldn't have been a long enough time to wait, I don't know, but NHL hockey 100% could have worked in the Phoenix area if done properly.

 

[wildcat48]

Funny, because I’ve heard the same thing about Ottawa. “It’s too far”. “Out in the boonies!!” Etc…. etc….

You’re mixing apples and oranges and making a fruit salad.

It’s been explained here so many times that no two markets can be equally compared.

It is too far. That's why they are looking at LeBreton Flats.

 

[StreetHawk]

I kind of agree.

Not only has it put the existing fans through a long, drawn-out hell, there's no guarantee it was even worth it since they still might leave anyways and it's basically been like slowly ripping a band-aid off over 15 years worth of dense hair and skin.

They might have been in front of LV on the expansion list a few years ago (way bigger city), and given how LV has done there's no reason Phoenix couldn't have done the same thing with a proper arena and owner. Maybe that wouldn't have been a long enough time to wait, I don't know, but NHL hockey 100% could have worked in the Phoenix area if done properly.

Jets should never have relocated to Phoenix. Between it not being an nhl arena for capacity, the suns controlling the revenue from the arena, the age of the arena at just 4 years, and No ownership ties between the 2 clubs it was simply too much to overcome.

For AZ to have made it they needed to be an expansion city. Being forced to have a sound arena setup like Nash, Min, Atl, cbs we’re forced to. And the arena to be completed before puck drop.

None of these empty promises and real estate deals that a couple of these AZ owners placed ahead of the team.

 

[mouser]

Is it possible for them to tweak the original proposal and have it revoted on later in the year? Yes it would push back construction but that is a minimal concern at this point

It’s possible, but not realistic. There would be another referendum, likely in May 2024 adding an additional year of delay, with no guarantee of winning the second refendum.

If the team does have a viable Plan B they can break ground on by the end of 2023 the new arena opening date should be similar to the rejected TED proposal. Unlike the TED proposal, any Plan B site shouldn‘t require 6-9 months of land remediation before starting arena construction.

 

[TheLegend]

It is too far. That's why they are looking at LeBreton Flats.

I get that. Someone else who doesn’t know the Phoenix Metro geography worth spit seems to think differently

 

[LightningStorm]

How do you guys rate Portland as a relocation possibility for the Yotes? They are who I hope gets them the most. The Pacific NW is a natural fit for hockey, and with 2021 being long overdue for Seattle getting a team, I would find it cool if the US part of this region got a 2nd team immediately. The Rose Garden (Moda Center) was built to accommodate hockey.

I think Houston ultimately gets the Coyotes if they move, but Portland is where I hope they go.

 

[Major4Boarding]

It isn't that simple.

Fertitta didn't want to pay the going rate for a NHL team, that's probably the only reason why he doesn't have a NHL team right now.

And considering the NHL holds the franchise values above every else in their list of priorities, they aren't going to let him get it for anything less. He was borderline publicly outed as a cheapskate after the details of his meeting with Daly were released.

Fertitta is the only one who could own that any Houston franchise. If he doesn't want to pay the going rate for a NHL team, and nothing has indicated his attitude has changed, then the NHL isn't going to Houston. And as an aside, right after he was too cheap to put up the cash for a NHL team, he bought a steakhouse chain in a deal worth eight figures, so it's not like he has been putting liquid capital aside to save up.

I want to focus on Fertitta for a moment. Tilman on why he jumped off the horse on buying the Commanders (bid $5.6B). Ya'll pay attention to the last 50 seconds (3:35 - 4:30 mark)



Tilman was on CNBC again the other day regarding "the state of the consumer in the restaurant sector, casino stocks and the sports industry". However, that video is locked for subscription-based reasons. But I'll focus on the Sports Industry part.

Regarding high-end franchise offerings (says he was "involved" in the Denver and Commanders process) - "there's not alot of buyers out there, when you start talking about these numbers... You look at all these people. It's the same people that are looking at all these teams and you just eliminated one in Denver, you eliminated one in Phoenix, and you eliminated one now in the NFL".

Ended that with "It'll be interesting to see all the prices stay up".

Believes that franchises have hit their peak in relation to valuations. However, he brought up that he bought the Rockets for $2.2B 6 years ago and said "one statistic I looked at is, no team has ever sold for less (than purchased) and I've essentially doubled my money in these 6 years in owning 100% of that team".

Lastly, "but, at the same time, we're in numbers now that where Middle Class Billionaires like myself can't own them anymore by themselves and alot of those people that are in front of me in that Forbes 100 don't have any desire to own a team or already own a team and they're out saving the World".

"So this is really going to be interesting to follow what happens with these sports teams in the next few years".

Interesting.

 

[StreetHawk]

I want to focus on Fertitta for a moment. Tilman on why he jumped off the horse on buying the Commanders (bid $5.6B). Ya'll pay attention to the last 50 seconds (3:35 - 4:30 mark)



Tilman was on CNBC again the other day regarding "the state of the consumer in the restaurant sector, casino stocks and the sports industry". However, that video is locked for subscription-based reasons. But I'll focus on the Sports Industry part.

Regarding high-end franchise offerings (says he was "involved" in the Denver and Commanders process) - "there's not alot of buyers out there, when you start talking about these numbers... You look at all these people. It's the same people that are looking at all these teams and you just eliminated one in Denver, you eliminated one in Phoenix, and you eliminated one now in the NFL".

Ended that with "It'll be interesting to see all the prices stay up".

Believes that franchises have hit their peak in relation to valuations. However, he brought up that he bought the Rockets for $2.2B 6 years ago and said "one statistic I looked at is, no team has ever sold for less (than purchased) and I've essentially doubled my money in these 6 years in owning 100% of that team".

Lastly, "but, at the same time, we're in numbers now that where Middle Class Billionaires like myself can't own them anymore by themselves and alot of those people that are in front of me in that Forbes 100 don't have any desire to own a team or already own a team and they're out saving the World".

"So this is really going to be interesting to follow what happens with these sports teams in the next few years".

Interesting.

Sounds like he may sell the rockets once he feels the prices have peaked. At the prices for nba in the $4 bill range for larger markets you would need to be worth several billion to get in the game and probably look for minority investors for 25-40% to offset the cost.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Lastly, "but, at the same time, we're in numbers now that where Middle Class Billionaires like myself can't own them anymore by themselves and alot of those people that are in front of me in that Forbes 100 don't have any desire to own a team or already own a team and they're out saving the World".

"So this is really going to be interesting to follow what happens with these sports teams in the next few years".

Interesting.

The bolded is hilarious.

 

[Headshot77]

I want to focus on Fertitta for a moment

"but, at the same time, we're in numbers now that where Middle Class Billionaires like myself can't own them anymore by themselves and alot of those people that are in front of me in that Forbes 100 don't have any desire to own a team or already own a team and they're out saving the World".

Did he just say the phrase "Middle Class Billionaire". I think I am gonna throw up.

 

[powerstuck]

Feels like the team is saying ''WE will build an arena just don't know where''.

So If I am a representative of any of the cities invoved, well there is your permit, now pay for it yourself.

Why?
Is the arena outside?
Not trying to be an ass, I have no idea what the arena looks like. I just now that 13,000 is more than 5,000 loo

Thing is, if you are the league and/or a team owner, you can argue for a while that 13000 isn't far off 15321 (Winnipeg).

At 5000 everyone know's it cannot last more than a few seasons while a new barn is found.

 

[JimAnchower]

I want to focus on Fertitta for a moment. Tilman on why he jumped off the horse on buying the Commanders (bid $5.6B). Ya'll pay attention to the last 50 seconds (3:35 - 4:30 mark)



Tilman was on CNBC again the other day regarding "the state of the consumer in the restaurant sector, casino stocks and the sports industry". However, that video is locked for subscription-based reasons. But I'll focus on the Sports Industry part.

Regarding high-end franchise offerings (says he was "involved" in the Denver and Commanders process) - "there's not alot of buyers out there, when you start talking about these numbers... You look at all these people. It's the same people that are looking at all these teams and you just eliminated one in Denver, you eliminated one in Phoenix, and you eliminated one now in the NFL".

Ended that with "It'll be interesting to see all the prices stay up".

Believes that franchises have hit their peak in relation to valuations. However, he brought up that he bought the Rockets for $2.2B 6 years ago and said "one statistic I looked at is, no team has ever sold for less (than purchased) and I've essentially doubled my money in these 6 years in owning 100% of that team".

Lastly, "but, at the same time, we're in numbers now that where Middle Class Billionaires like myself can't own them anymore by themselves and alot of those people that are in front of me in that Forbes 100 don't have any desire to own a team or already own a team and they're out saving the World".

"So this is really going to be interesting to follow what happens with these sports teams in the next few years".

Interesting.

Sounds like he's only buying the Coyotes if the price is very favorable towards him. So if there are people willing to pay more, they'll go there.

 

[JimAnchower]

I’m not going to get into the speculation of what’s going on “behind the scenes”. I’d like to keep my sanity.

But there is plenty of logic behind the pressure Bettman is likely to be facing from other owners and the PA to answer the question, “what is the plan?”. And it’s going to have to be in place soon…. As in before the start of next season IMO.

How much power does Bettman have in this situation? Is Meruelo running the Coyotes in such a way that runs afowl of the franchise ownership agreement? If not, there isn't much Bettman can do. If he tries to take away the keys, Meruelo is going to sue. That will be expensive for the league and take years to resolve. And's let's not even get into the other owners going through discovery and deposition. So what options does Bettman have?

He could apply some pressure on Meruelo to sell, like saying "You really need to resolve this.". He could remove Meruelo from any ownership committees. If the Coyotes revenue is far below the 31st team, maybe adjust the revenue sharing calculations to some minimum that is between the Coyotes and the 31st team.

But in the end, Bettman isn't running this, Meruelo is.

 

[GKJ]

The owners are a boys club. When a club wants to kick you out, they figure out how to do just that.

 

[patnyrnyg]

It is too far. That's why they are looking at LeBreton Flats.

Been there twice. Once stayed near arena, was not a long drive to see all the stuff downtown. Second time stayed downtown, was not a far drive to the arena.

 

[OG6ix]

Personally, I feel like the yotes are bringing up this whole Mesa thing in order to sell tickets for next year (and maybe however long they have to stay at mullet before relocating). It's bad enough that they are in a 5k arena with high ticket prices but imagine telling your fans flat out the team is going to relocate...

 

[Tawnos]

How do you guys rate Portland as a relocation possibility for the Yotes? They are who I hope gets them the most. The Pacific NW is a natural fit for hockey, and with 2021 being long overdue for Seattle getting a team, I would find it cool if the US part of this region got a 2nd team immediately. The Rose Garden (Moda Center) was built to accommodate hockey.

I think Houston ultimately gets the Coyotes if they move, but Portland is where I hope they go.

They're getting near the threshold where they could support both NHL and NBA, but I'm not sure they're quite there yet. But since we're seriously talking about SLC around here that might be out the window in the right circumstance. I remain skeptical in both cases though.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Sounds like he's only buying the Coyotes if the price is very favorable towards him. So if there are people willing to pay more, they'll go there.

One thing about wealthy people, is they tend to make financial decisions based on what is best for them. The "middle class billionaire..." comment aside, he is right about how many people can afford to pay the "going rate" for a team. None of the people who have the money to buy a team AND have enough money to fund the team in case of losses, are going to buy the team without a favorable arena lease or them owning an arena themselves. So, let's start there. How many people have the money to spend on the team at this going rate AND own an arena that doesn't have an NHL team? Secondly all these people that have the money, regardless of arena situation or not, are well aware of the Coyotes situation in Arizona. The league can try to force Mureulo to sell all they want. They can try all they want to mandate a very high price for the team. If nobody is will to pay that, then what? I guess the league can buy the team, but do they want to do that? League can try to force Mureulo to move the team, but there has to be an arena willing to take them. Will all the issues that have been reported about some of his questionable business practices (not paying vendors and then making offers to settle, etc), what arena is going to give him a lease? For example, KC. If I am the person in charge of brokering the deal on the arena's side, I am either making him buy the arena and a favorable price to me, or he is paying the rent and all the expenses up front as he can't be trusted to make his payments on time. So basically I am saying, "Yeah, we really don't want you here. BUT, if you are ready to be bent over a barrell we will take you." Just like when someone asks me if I am available to tutor and I say my rate is $200/hr. I give that amount because I have no real interest in tutoring, but everyone has their price.

 

[Mightygoose]

Personally, I feel like the yotes are bringing up this whole Mesa thing in order to sell tickets for next year (and maybe however long they have to stay at mullet before relocating). It's bad enough that they are in a 5k arena with high ticket prices but imagine telling your fans flat out the team is going to relocate...

Yes it seems like the opposite strategy from the Oakland A's. Though they looked at more sites over a longer period, there's no mystery plan B from Howard Terminal and they're open about looking at Vegas.

Sad thing is many of the A's crowds now will fit into Mullet with room to spare. At the same time it wouldn't take much to paper the rest of the team or league being transparent about relocating being a possibility.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I'm with you on this one.

Generally, the fact that Meruelo/Gutierrez don't seem to have another site already chosen suggests to me that one of the following is true:

- All of this is a smokescreen for the behind-the-scenes dealings for a relocation, or
- The entire NHL leadership is so half-baked that they actually think Mullett for 6-7 years is an ok idea, or
- Bettman is the only one who is crazy, and the BOG and the PA are about to go bonkers and throw a huge fit into Bettman's lap

There is probably a good chunk of NHL leadership (owners) that are fine with them using Mullett forever. Keeps overall revenues for the league lower and a lower salary cap all while their revenues increase as do their profits. I think many people here are greatly overestimating how badly the other owners want the team out of Phoenix. The NHLPA on the otherhand? Well, that is a horse of a different color.

 

[Llama19]

Is Mesa the next city on the Arizona Coyotes radar? Here's how Mesa leaders are reacting

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2023/05/19/heres-how-mesa-leaders-are-reacting-to-a-possible-coyotes-arena/70233675007/

 

[aqib]

No shit... of course they will start from scratch. So what...??

They can engage all they want. Bottom line is you have to find someone who's willing to see the economic benefits outweigh the costs.

Wanna park?? Costs are millions and make no money for the city. "Affordable housing"?? Yeah right.

Nick Wood was asked that specific question and it penciled out to $500,000...... per unit after you factored in all the costs.

Maybe they find someone who's willing to set a half billion on fire for philanthropy purposes.

Meanwhile.... tick tock..... tick tock.....

This time they will engage the public at the start and do a proper process not a sham like this one was