Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 2: Regular Season

[Hivemind]

McMic's biggest problems:
Mediocre size at 6'0" 180
Mediocre strength
Mediocre speed

Everything you just typed applies to Sidney Crosby, as well. There's a lot more to a scouting report than "combine"-type stats.

(And you're underrating McMichael's speed)

 

[g00n]

LOL CMM has done what exactly to draw a Crosby comparison of any kind?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

The assumption is that McMichael was physically unready last season. I don't really buy that, otherwise his impacts would have probably been much worse than they were last year. Because I do agree, you need some level of physical attributes in order to be effective.

But assuming he wasn't physically ready last year, it would be even more boneheaded to deny him an opportunity this year because he was able to put up good impacts last year despite not being physically ready. So imagine how good he'll be this year when he is actually ready!

The flip side of that, if he WAS physically ready, maybe he’s in the top-10 of the Calder discussion….btw Fever was 14th In the voting lol….

It‘s pretty clear last year he needed to improve his strength and his skating could have done with an off-season program like Protas apparently had this summer.

Is he ready now physically? I know you don’t watch the games, but what do the spreadsheets say so far this preseason about his compete level in the gritty areas and skating as compared to last year?

 

[zappa4ever]

Everything you just typed applies to Sidney Crosby, as well. There's a lot more to a scouting report than "combine"-type stats.

(And you're underrating McMichael's speed)

lol, OK I didn't want to shart that much on McMic, I'll add mediocre quickness, mediocre edgework...

tho I disagree about Crosby re: mediocre strength -- his lower body strength, balance and edgework are elite, I'd say Crosby's stickwork, shot, Hockey IQ and work ethic also out-do McMediocre

 

[HecticGlow]

I think the hidden part that some people may not be seeing about CMM is likely his NHL level endurance simply wasn't there. It could very well explain why he put up very good fancies then got benched in the 3rd period a lot. The idea that he wasn't at NHL level endurance is also shared with Protas based on this quote:



Point is that it may not have been that CMM wasn't playing the game PL wanted, it may simply have been that he couldn't sustain it for 18 mins like the other top forwards with experience could. Meaning he wasn't ready for full NHL duty, but it wasn't his game that wasn't ready, it was his legs... his wind... his strength. Vince Lombardi once said "fatigue makes cowards of all men" and anyone who has played any sport like hockey knows you can't go all out on every shift all game, but the top players in the league are also the most fit, endurance wise.

While I agree with your overall sentiment, there’s still the reality that CMM was benched at the deadline in favour of guys like Johan Larsson and Mojo.

But there does appear sometimes to be an assumption around here that because a guy plays well, statistically, in his 8 minutes of ice time he’d keep those numbers up when regularly playing at 18 minutes a game, every game. I think a degree of his analytical success also belongs to the coaching staff - not playing him in third periods when the tempo and pressure ramps up, for example, and as you suggest playing him limited minutes to ensure he doesn’t become physically or mentally overwhelmed.

To be clear, I’m not a CMM hater by any means. I’m just not sure we’re managing his development as well as we could, which is concerning given how that went for Burakovsky, Vrana, Stephenson and other forwards since Kuzy.

 

[Calicaps]

Everything you just typed applies to Sidney Crosby, as well. There's a lot more to a scouting report than "combine"-type stats.

(And you're underrating McMichael's speed)

Maybe Crosby today. Young Crosby was an immovable object.

 

[Hivemind]

lol, OK I didn't want to shart that much on McMic, I'll add mediocre quickness, mediocre edgework...

tho I disagree about Crosby re: mediocre strength -- his lower body strength, balance and edgework are elite, I'd say Crosby's stickwork, shot, Hockey IQ and work ethic also out-do McMediocre

Yeah, this lazy-ass scouting report of CMM will be fun to quote in a couple years. Would have loved to see your assessment of players like Claude Giroux, Jake Guentzel, Jordan Kyrou, and Mikael Granlund as they were breaking into the league.

Obviously Crosby is going to be better than McM (and 99.9% of the NHL) in many categories. But he's not some spectacular physical specimen, and he's never been known for his size or speed. Players in the NHL can succeed because of other attributes. CMM was known at basically every level for his hockey IQ and ability to play at full speed. All signs point to that being able to carry over to the NHL level, should he be given an actually opportunity (and not just 6 minutes with zero PP time).

Maybe Crosby today. Young Crosby was an immovable object.

If CMM is "only" as good as Crosby today, I'll take that and run as fast as I can.

 

[zappa4ever]

///All signs point to that being able to carry over to the NHL level, should he be given an actually opportunity (and not just 6 minutes with zero PP time).

C'mon now, upthread it was 8mins/gm, now 6?

McMic ATOI is over 10 minutes and played 45 games with 10+

I don't pre-anoint any prospect, I let them prove it on the ice
Apparently that's where a few of us disagree

I'd love to see him make it, I have several doubts it's coming any time soon

 

[Calicaps]

If CMM is "only" as good as Crosby today, I'll take that and run as fast as I can.

Sure, but CMM's absolutely not that good. And who said "only"? I just said maybe that description fits Crosby today. Even if they share mediocre physical attributes (and that's a big if), CMM's hockey IQ and it seems his commitment to training aren't in the same constellation as Sidney's.

 

[Hivemind]

C'mon now, upthread it was 8mins/gm, now 6?

McMic ATOI is over 10 minutes and played 45 games with 10+

I don't pre-anoint any prospect, I let them prove it on the ice
Apparently that's where a few of us disagree

I'd love to see him make it, I have several doubts it's coming any time soon

You're haggling over a rhetorical difference in minutes. Point is that he got far fewer minutes than he earned, and got effectively zero powerplay time. A reminder that Marcus Johansson, Garnet Hathaway, and freakin' Michael Sgarbossa got more time on the powerplay than McMichael did last year. They were benching him for Johan Larsson, a guy who failed his physical and had to go back to Europe this season. Despite that, he still posted more points/60 than TJ Oshie or Nicklas Backstrom. That's not fancy stats, that's just points per minute played. He absolutely was proving it on the ice, but the coaches didn't give him runway to put up big time boxcar stats. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. Even when McMichael scored, he got benched in the third period.

 

[Langway]

Obviously Crosby is going to be better than McM (and 99.9% of the NHL) in many categories. But he's not some spectacular physical specimen, and he's never been known for his size or speed.

What in the world? Size in terms of height, sure, but strength on the puck, hockey thickness and the like have always been there. Crosby isn't Gretzky or Gaudreau. His speed is weaker now with how fast the game has evolved around him in 15 years but the IQ and competitiveness have been the hallmarks. Both are areas McMichael has long needed to improve. He's perhaps stronger now...but that hasn't been too evident in practice in the pre-season.

He fundamentally seems like more or less the same player and that's one that may struggle to cement himself in a top six role or generally put it all together against men. Maybe he fares better at center rather than having to work the walls so much but competitiveness is going to be an unavoidable obstacle he has to overcome to both earn the coaches trust and put it all together. Without that I'm not sure there's all that much there. The Vrana route won't work here.

 

[g00n]

CMM's comments about being fine with his current physique and weight and Langway's comment above got me thinking more about an old suspicion.

Of course it's just speculation, but I wonder if one reason he gets low TOI and keeps ending up on the wing is they WANT to grind some toughness and grit into him.

One way to get a soft or perimeter player out of his habits is to force him into a banger role on the boards. Sink or swim. If you just give him the 3C position nothing changes.

Too crazy? Probably. But you never know. Lavi had similar concerns with Kuzy. Why not CMM? What makes him immune?

 

[Calicaps]

CMM's comments about being fine with his current physique and weight and Langway's comment above got me thinking more about an old suspicion.

Of course it's just speculation, but I wonder if one reason he gets low TOI and keeps ending up on the wing is they WANT to grind some toughness and grit into him.

One way to get a soft or perimeter player out of his habits is to force him into a banger role on the boards. Sink or swim. If you just give him the 3C position nothing changes.

Too crazy? Probably. But you never know. Lavi had similar concerns with Kuzy. Why not CMM? What makes him immune?

Could be. Whatever the strategy, I wouldn't be surprised if the project with him is less about how he performs in his 8/6/10/whatever minutes a night and more about the complacent attitude. He outperformed expectations in juniors, then got an early promotion to the big club because of Covid. So he may be feeling a bit too good about himself.

I can imagine that Lavi wants him to be dissatisfied with the status quo rather than "fine with the current" state of things, to want more, and to do the work to get more. Which brings us 'round to your point about 3C... giving it to him doesn't help cultivate more drive. But in the end, if he doesn't have or cannot develop that drive, then he'll never be a real difference-maker. Would be a bummer.

 

[Hivemind]

What in the world? Size in terms of height, sure, but strength on the puck, hockey thickness and the like have always been there. Crosby isn't Gretzky or Gaudreau.

Follow the quote-chain back and you'll see the context here. It was in response to an incredibly shallow evaluation that only used height/weight for "size" and made completely arbitrary evaluations of size and speed for CMM. I wasn't intending to compare CMM to Crosby, I was pointing out how that shallow of an evaluation is absurd.

 

[Langway]

Follow the quote-chain back and you'll see the context here. It was in response to an incredibly shallow evaluation that only used height/weight for "size" and made completely arbitrary evaluations of size and speed for CMM. I wasn't intending to compare CMM to Crosby, I was pointing out how that shallow of an evaluation is absurd.

Except Crosby has always been right around 200 lbs. Pretty big difference, esp. with most of that being lower body strength allowing for loads of puck protection.

IINM McMichael did say he put on some more muscle in the off-season and he does train with Gary Roberts & Co. But there's training and there's training. There's doing it and there's living it. I don't know that he's got that dawg in him, essentially. And so what's the carrying strength? Initially it was a certain offensive craftiness but that seems to have waned along with his confidence to some degree. As-is it doesn't seem that far off for him to fall into the rut that's claimed other finesse players under Lavi who've not managed to dig their way out of it.

If he produces he can write his ticket to wherever he wants to play but that requires a lot of determination and ability to translate emotion into results. Thus far he's been sort of a bottom-feeder offensively and needs to find more ways to impact the game overall. The underlying stats may be strong but there's still a lot lacking to endear himself to the coaching staff. As much as maybe those things are superficial or wrongly prioritized they are fairly simple and easily managed areas. If physical immaturity is less of an excuse it primarily points to mentality and I suspect all along that's been the larger issue. These days if players really want to play interior they'll have trained like it for years and years and not just at the age of 19 or 20 when it becomes absolutely essential.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Did I see Sidney Crosby's strength described as 'mediocre' on this page? Can I get clarification that I did in fact see that?

 

[RedRocking]

I’m rooting for the kid, but man now I almost hope he gets sent to Hershey, so he isn’t debated incessantly here every day (comps to Ovi/Sid?! - woah there!).

Or door #3: trade him in a package for Chychrun. It would be a compromise since some fans of CMM dislike Fever, so that would allow Fever to move to 3LD.

Still have Protas, and LaPierre in the pipeline at C. And then there can be discussions of other players (like anyone else, ffs), within the organization.

 

[racingmoose]

Some of these comments about CMM are interesting, or maybe humorous. As a fan of the Caps, it would be great if he became a top impact player. But he hasn't shown that yet. There's a lot more to a player than fancy stats, which some think are all that matters. Fancy stats are only a piece of what's used to evaluate a player. There's many other qualities such as conditioning (something CMM needs to work on), attitude, fitting in with the locker room, line mate cohesiveness, role needed on the team, desire to learn and grow as a player, and much more that scouts and teams look at. There's a reason why most evaluators of young players don't have CMM currently in the top 50 under 23 players/prospects. But some keep talking like he's in the top 10. It would be great if he gets there. As of now, Protas and Snively, are showing more. and making a much better case for a roster spot.

 

[Hivemind]

Except Crosby has always been right around 200 lbs. Pretty big difference, esp. with most of that being lower body strength allowing for loads of puck protection.

IINM McMichael did say he put on some more muscle in the off-season and he does train with Gary Roberts & Co. But there's training and there's training. There's doing it and there's living it. I don't know that he's got that dawg in him, essentially. And so what's the carrying strength? Initially it was a certain offensive craftiness but that seems to have waned along with his confidence to some degree. As-is it doesn't seem that far off for him to fall into the rut that's claimed other finesse players under Lavi who've not managed to dig their way out of it.

If he produces he can write his ticket to wherever he wants to play but that requires a lot of determination and ability to translate emotion into results. Thus far he's been sort of a bottom-feeder offensively and needs to find more ways to impact the game overall. The underlying stats may be strong but there's still a lot lacking to endear himself to the coaching staff. As much as maybe those things are superficial or wrongly prioritized they are fairly simple and easily managed areas. If physical immaturity is less of an excuse it primarily points to mentality and I suspect all along that's been the larger issue. These days if players really want to play interior they'll have trained like it for years and years and not just at the age of 19 or 20 when it becomes absolutely essential.

He's reported to be at 185/190 this season, and as you pointed out he's training with Gary Roberts. Or you could look at any of the names I dropped in the subsequent post for other players who don't have stand-out heights or weights or overwhelmingly fast straight-ahead skating, yet have been successes in the NHL. You're seeing the intentionally hyperbolic name I chose (Crosby) and losing the forest for the trees here. There's nothing in his physical attributes preventing CMM from having similar success to, say, Mikael Granlund (5'10" 180-185lbs, been described as an "average" skater) or Joe Pavelski (5'11" 190-195lbs, was never an imposing player or a burner, and his current forecaster scouting report states "He is not big, fast or physical--just effective.").

Gary Roberts isn't exactly known for letting his trainees be uncommitted. The fact that you (and others) are now trying to bring up commitment and work ethic as question marks for CMM is some real post-hoc justifications for the coaching staff burying CMM. You're searching for some reason why he "hasn't endeared himself" to the coaching staff, to the point where there's now questions being drawn in areas where questions were never drawn about this player previously. "If the coaching staff doesn't trust him, there must obviously be something wrong with him, right?" I understand the search for rationale there, but I don't agree with leaping to a conclusion regarding it. Moreover, this head coach has shown this to be a pattern with him. He holds young skill players to a different standard than other players, especially when compared to veterans. CMM wasn't the only player in Lavi's doghouse last year, and he's not the first example of this happening. Lavi set Kevin Fiala's development back years in Nashville, and it's not surprising he blossomed as soon as he got to Minnesota. After the Richards/Carter trades in Philadelphia, the Flyers foisted a young team upon him, and Lavi still had Matt Read skating more minutes than Voracek or Wayne Simmonds. He had Brayden Schenn bouncing in-and-out of the line-up in Philadelphia, and then Schenn posted 41 points immediately after Lavi was fired.

Occam's Razor points towards Laviolette here, not any commitment issues from CMM.

 

[Langway]

The questions with McMichael have been there really from the beginning in terms of having a pro style for a center. His bread and butter all along has been goal-scoring and knack for having touch around the net rather than a sterling, reliable, crisp two-way game. Limit the finishing effectiveness against NHL goalies and the other stuff? Not that great. It's fair. Developing. Not what has got him there. His off puck play all along has been soft and the excuse has been physical immaturity when the reality is probably more likely a combination of that as well as mentality.

The reasons why other areas are works in progress when he was coached by Dale Hunter of all people is anyone's guess. But I would not really draw the conclusion that either Hunter or Roberts are downright militaristic in approach. With the later these are clients after all. Players get what they put in. It's ultimately up to him. Maybe in a more wide open system he would fare better. I don't doubt he would at all. It would be a lot easier for a player like him for there to be easier open ice to take advantage of rather than having to doggedly create it himself. It's hard for any younger forward to have to play uphill like that.

It's largely going to come down to whether his IQ and determination allow for him to adapt and problem solve. Even if there's a higher standard than normal for a player like him he's still been outplayed by Protas & Snively during pre-season games. I think he'll figure it out in time but I'm not sure it will be as a top six player. He needs to show a lot more confidence to suggest it from a skill assertiveness standpoint and also definitely needs to embrace more of a grinding mentality. It may not be him at heart but when in Rome...

 

[SecretaryofDefense5]

While I agree with your overall sentiment, there’s still the reality that CMM was benched at the deadline in favour of guys like Johan Larsson and Mojo.

But there does appear sometimes to be an assumption around here that because a guy plays well, statistically, in his 8 minutes of ice time he’d keep those numbers up when regularly playing at 18 minutes a game, every game. I think a degree of his analytical success also belongs to the coaching staff - not playing him in third periods when the tempo and pressure ramps up, for example, and as you suggest playing him limited minutes to ensure he doesn’t become physically or mentally overwhelmed.

To be clear, I’m not a CMM hater by any means. I’m just not sure we’re managing his development as well as we could, which is concerning given how that went for Burakovsky, Vrana, Stephenson and other forwards since Kuzy.

Absolutely agree. The organization royally screwed the pooch last year with the way they managed McMichael and NO I’m not saying he should have been playing a ton of minutes. It was obvious he needed more development and they kept him around anyway. Dude should have been playing every situation in Hershey and building confidence. Instead Lavi stapled his ass to the bench to watch. Not great Bob, not great.

 

[zappa4ever]

Follow the quote-chain back and you'll see the context here. It was in response to an incredibly shallow evaluation that only used height/weight for "size" and made completely arbitrary evaluations of size and speed for CMM. I wasn't intending to compare CMM to Crosby, I was pointing out how that shallow of an evaluation is absurd.

It ain't shallow nor absurd nor arbitrary... they're simple, basic facts

McMic does not possess Elite Physical Attributes in terms of Size/Strength/Speed.
Period.

Are you Connor's mom? Wondering why the vitriol for an innocuous post

 

[SecretaryofDefense5]

It ain't shallow nor absurd nor arbitrary... they're simple, basic facts

McMic does not possess Elite Physical Attributes in terms of Size/Strength/Speed.
Period.

Are you Connor's mom? Wondering why the vitriol for an innocuous post

Some of these comments about CMM are interesting, or maybe humorous. As a fan of the Caps, it would be great if he became a top impact player. But he hasn't shown that yet. There's a lot more to a player than fancy stats, which some think are all that matters. Fancy stats are only a piece of what's used to evaluate a player. There's many other qualities such as conditioning (something CMM needs to work on), attitude, fitting in with the locker room, line mate cohesiveness, role needed on the team, desire to learn and grow as a player, and much more that scouts and teams look at. There's a reason why most evaluators of young players don't have CMM currently in the top 50 under 23 players/prospects. But some keep talking like he's in the top 10. It would be great if he gets there. As of now, Protas and Snively, are showing more. and making a much better case for a roster spot.

Agreed. He hasn’t forced the issue yet like Protas and Snivley. I think he will get there but needs some more time in Hershey.

 

[Hivemind]

It ain't shallow nor absurd nor arbitrary... they're simple, basic facts

McMic does not possess Elite Physical Attributes in terms of Size/Strength/Speed.
Period.

Are you Connor's mom? Wondering why the vitriol for an innocuous post

There are several degrees between "Elite" and "Mediocre." Your post was both downplaying CMM's physical attributes and ignoring his hockey sense and ability to execute plays at speed. It was part of the narrative that people are attempting to build to justify management's decisions simply because they're the team's management. It's the post-hoc rationale that I talked about in my post to Langway. "Coaching and management made this decision, therefor let's seek out rationale to justify it."

You want to CMM to play like Jay Beagle to make the team. That's symptomatic of the same single-minded approach that management has shown recently, focusing on trying to mitigate any their own weaknesses rather than attacking opposing weaknesses. Focusing on trying to create an inoffensive, middle-of-the-road team that can squeeze out another 2 or 3 games of playoff revenue. Risk-averse management that wants players that play risk-averse hockey to keep the facade of competitiveness while Ovie's 894 circus continues. You'd rather CMM make no mistakes himself rather than play an attacking style that forces the opponent to make mistakes. You'd sooner bench CMM for a turnover than reward him for making a play.

This debate shouldn't be about CMM, Snively, and Protas (and AJF) fighting for the same spot. Guys like Johansson shouldn't be here blocking their spots, and players like Eller and Sheary should be just as much at risk at risk of seeing their ice time chopped or being moved out of position as the less proven players. Heck, even Oshie should be a candidate to have his minutes managed and see maintenance games over the course of the season (especially if they want to keep him off of LTIR for once). This team isn't going to succeed based on who was the best player from 2016-2019, it needs players that are going to be able to exceed expectations (and exceed their paychecks) from 2022 onwards. There should be a path forward for multiple young players to displace middling veterans and guys on the downside of their career, rather than turning into a contest about who has two or three good pre-season games.

Agreed. He hasn’t forced the issue yet like Protas and Snivley. I think he will get there but needs some more time in Hershey.

He was scoring more frequently at even-strength than TJ Oshie and Nicklas Backstrom last season. How is that not forcing the issue? He would score goals and still find himself benched later in the same game.

 

[SecretaryofDefense5]

There are several degrees between "Elite" and "Mediocre." Your post was both downplaying CMM's physical attributes and ignoring his hockey sense and ability to execute plays at speed. It was part of the narrative that people are attempting to build to justify management's decisions simply because they're the team's management. It's the post-hoc rationale that I talked about in my post to Langway. "Coaching and management made this decision, therefor let's seek out rationale to justify it."

You want to CMM to play like Jay Beagle to make the team. That's symptomatic of the same single-minded approach that management has shown recently, focusing on trying to mitigate any their own weaknesses rather than attacking opposing weaknesses. Focusing on trying to create an inoffensive, middle-of-the-road team that can squeeze out another 2 or 3 games of playoff revenue. Risk-averse management that wants players that play risk-averse hockey to keep the facade of competitiveness while Ovie's 894 circus continues. You'd rather CMM make no mistakes himself rather than play an attacking style that forces the opponent to make mistakes. You'd sooner bench CMM for a turnover than reward him for making a play.

This debate shouldn't be about CMM, Snively, and Protas (and AJF) fighting for the same spot. Guys like Johansson shouldn't be here blocking their spots, and players like Eller and Sheary should be just as much at risk at risk of seeing their ice time chopped or being moved out of position as the less proven players. Heck, even Oshie should be a candidate to have his minutes managed and see maintenance games over the course of the season (especially if they want to keep him off of LTIR for once). This team isn't going to succeed based on who was the best player from 2016-2019, it needs players that are going to be able to exceed expectations (and exceed their paychecks) from 2022 onwards. There should be a path forward for multiple young players to displace middling veterans and guys on the downside of their career, rather than turning into a contest about who has two or three good pre-season games.


He was scoring more frequently at even-strength than TJ Oshie and Nicklas Backstrom last season. How is that not forcing the issue? He would score goals and still find himself benched later in the same game.

My point is that he hasn’t out played some of the guys he is competing with for a roster spot this pre-season.