Better forward group: Tampa, Toronto or Other?

[StoneHands]

I disagree, I didn't think we were talking about the cap/term at all. Just depth/production.



Nylander led the league, in offense from stick checks. I think this fallacy of him not being defensively sound needs to end.
He too plays C. +20 vs. +18 too.



Contracts are significant in your first paragraph, but not on this last point?

Nylander plays center? Weird, I thought Matthews centered that line.

Yeah, you got me, Nylander stick checks and was +2 better than Point. He's clearly the superior defensive player.

Yes, Stamkos at $8.5m for 6 years is a team friendly contract whereas Tavares at $11m for 7 years is not. It's not crippling by any means but can you not see which contract is better? Also, I said I would take Tavares and his contract over Point the same way I would take Stamkos and his contract over Marner so I'm not sure where the hot take is here. I simply said there was a valid argument to be made for both.

 

[StoneHands]

The comparison was made with hyperbole on purpose. If you think I was actually trying to compare an all time great to a good player from our era, I am not sure it's even worth the time debating.

Well using hyperbole is not a good way to start a debate. When you have to go to those lengths in your first post you probably already lost.

 

[Caps8112]

I'm obviously bias but caps returning the same forward group (minus beagle). If we see playoff kuzy in reg season he may breakout this season. Vrana, burakovsky wilson going to be better. I like Stevenson but not expecting big jump

 

[libertarian]

I went with other only because I believe that the Pens and Jets are on the same tier with the Bolts and Leafs.
Any of these 4 teams could be the top forwards scoring team in the league this coming season. If I had to guess I go

Bolts
Jets
Leafs
Pens

But would not be surprise to see any of these 4 teams top the league.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

This Point vs Tavares narrative needs to stop. This kid is getting massively overrated. Tavares is a franchise two time Hart finalist. It is crazy even with age and contracts. If Point was THAT good, his contract would be worth the same as Tavares. Like Matthews.

Um no. Tavares has a bad contract, why would it be the same? Tavares was also a Hart Finalists once in the worst Hart year in modern times.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Sorry but that's wrong. He's going to have a fantastic year this season and is very much on the same level as those other guys. His skating is next level and he has fantastic vision and a good shot. I expect him to get around 75 points this year if Matthews is his healthy C all season.

ok

 

[Critical13]

So from this thread, I've learned that a select vocal few Tampa fans would prefer Gourde to Marner, and Point to Tavares.

I'll be interested in seeing that play out. We're in trouble if our 2nd and 3rd best players are worse than Tampa's 4th and 8th-10th best players. Hard to believe considering there wasn't much of a gap last year, and we added Tavares this year.

 

[34]

I would say Toronto, but it is close. Tampa is also stacked.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This Point vs Tavares narrative needs to stop. This kid is getting massively overrated. Tavares is a franchise two time Hart finalist. It is crazy even with age and contracts. If Point was THAT good, his contract would be worth the same as Tavares. Like Matthews.

I'm not going to get into the Tavares versus Point discussion, but this line of argument seems rather weak. First off, Point is coming off his ELC. Of course his contract isn't going to be $11 million per year unless he's McDavid. Tavares' contract after his ELC was $5.5 million. I guess that proved he wasn't on Toews' level since Toews was making $10.5 million at the time?

I mean, Crosby doesn't make what Tavares does. I guess that by itself is proof Crosby isn't as good, otherwise he'd be making Tavares money?

 

[X66]

I mean, Crosby doesn't make what Tavares does. I guess that by itself is proof Crosby isn't as good, otherwise he'd be making Tavares money?

This comment is just as weak though.

When Crosby signed both of his last two big contracts, he took up more of the teams cap-hit than Tavares did.

 

[tony d]

Went with Tampa.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

This comment is just as weak though.

When Crosby signed both of his last two big contracts, he took up more of the teams cap-hit than Tavares did.

It seems you either missed or ignored the point!

However it is obvious Tavares is better than Point.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This comment is just as weak though.

When Crosby signed both of his last two big contracts, he took up more of the teams cap-hit than Tavares did.

How is it "just as weak"? I'm not the one suggesting that what a player's contract is directly correlates to how good a player is. I was simply pointing to an example of how a superior player (Crosby) makes far less than an inferior one (Tavares) does.

PS. You're actually wrong about that. Crosby signed his latest deal which kicked in at the start of the 2013-14 season, where the cap was $64.3 million. His $8.7 million is 13.5% of the total cap. Tavares signed his deal with the Leafs where the cap is $79.5 million. His $11 million is 13.8% of the cap.

 

[ottawa]

I mean the anti Leaf will say Tampa but 3 30 goal centers says it's Toronto

Jesus, cry me a river lol

 

[Atomos2]

I'm not going to get into the Tavares versus Point discussion, but this line of argument seems rather weak. First off, Point is coming off his ELC. Of course his contract isn't going to be $11 million per year unless he's McDavid. Tavares' contract after his ELC was $5.5 million. I guess that proved he wasn't on Toews' level since Toews was making $10.5 million at the time?

I mean, Crosby doesn't make what Tavares does. I guess that by itself is proof Crosby isn't as good, otherwise he'd be making Tavares money?

Or Matthews. Or Tavares. ELC status means nothing. If he was that good, he would be making that money. This is the flawed argument with you guys. Assuming he'll have significantly less value than Tavares in his contract, this is why he has more value than Tavares? Um ok.

If Point was as good as everyone here is harping him to be, he'd be asking for Marner money (8-9 mil) at least. I don't see how assuming he's getting less than Tavares means he's matches Tavares' value.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Or Matthews. Or Tavares. ELC status means nothing. If he was that good, he would be making that money. This is the flawed argument with you guys. You are assuming he'll have significantly less value than Tavares which is why you will prefer him over Tavares? Um ok.

If Point was as good as everyone here is harping him to be, he'd be asking for Marner money (8-9 mil). I don't see how assuming he's getting less than Tavares means he's as good as Tavares.

Did you read the part where I said I'm not even commenting on the discussion of who is a better player? I was simply pointing out the flaw in your "if he's as good as Tavares, he should get the same contract" point.

You're also not comparing apples to apples. Point is coming off his ELC. Do you know what Tavares signed for coming off his ELC? Hint: it wasn't $11 million. So why would Point, a RFA, sign for the same as Tavares did as a UFA rather than when Tavares was comparable as a RFA?

 

[Atomos2]

Did you read the part where I said I'm not even commenting on the discussion of who is a better player? I was simply pointing out the flaw in your "if he's as good as Tavares, he should get the same contract" point.

You're also not comparing apples to apples. Point is coming off his ELC. Do you know what Tavares signed for coming off his ELC? Hint: it wasn't $11 million. So why would Point, a RFA, sign for the same as Tavares did as a UFA rather than when Tavares was comparable as a RFA?

Again, that doesn't stop Matthews from commanding $11 mil. Why should it stop Point? Especially if he's as amazing as everyone says he is.

 

[Lshap]

Voted Tampa, but many of the earlier posts made a good case for Winnipeg. Given age, results, and potential, I'd be tempted to say the Jets could have the best overall forward group. Leafs have the best Cs of these three teams, but not the best overall group.

 

[X66]

PS. You're actually wrong about that. Crosby signed his latest deal which kicked in at the start of the 2013-14 season, where the cap was $64.3 million. His $8.7 million is 13.5% of the total cap. Tavares signed his deal with the Leafs where the cap is $79.5 million. His $11 million is 13.8% of the cap.

No one looks at when the contract kicks in during the signing, when Crosby signed his extension in 2012 the official number is that he signed for 14%+ of the current cap, which is what it is officially registered as well.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Again, that doesn't stop Matthews from commanding $11 mil. Why should it stop Point? Especially if he's as amazing as everyone says he is.

Because Matthews is a 20 year old franchise player? What does him getting that much have to do with Point versus a 28 year old Tavares?

No one looks at when the contract kicks in during the signing, when Crosby signed his extension in 2012 the official number is that he signed for 14%+ of the current cap, which is what it is officially registered as well.

But that's how the contract is calculated as being a percentage of the cap? Crosby's contract took up 13.5% of the cap when it kicked in. You apply the percentage it takes up to the actual year it kicks in since that's the year the contract actually affects the team's overall cap situation.

If Tavares had signed with the Isles last summer for the same $11 million, it would be taking up 13.8% of the cap this year. Just because he signed it now instead of a year ago when he was first allowed to doesn't change how much it takes up of the cap, because that $11 million doesn't have an impact on the cap until *this* year.

 

[X66]

But that's how the contract is calculated as being a percentage of the cap? Crosby's contract took up 13.5% of the cap when it kicked in. You apply the percentage it takes up to the actual year it kicks in since that's the year the contract actually affects the team's overall cap situation.

If Tavares had signed with the Isles last summer for the same $11 million, it would be taking up 13.8% of the cap this year. Just because he signed it now instead of a year ago when he was first allowed to doesn't change how much it takes up of the cap, because that $11 million doesn't have an impact on the cap until *this* year.

It’s not calculated when the contract kicks in though, not officially.

All cap hit percentages are officially registered on what the current cap is at the time of the signing.

Go check cap friendly for yourself.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It’s not calculated when the contract kicks in though, not officially.

All cap hit percentages are officially registered on what the current cap is at the time of the signing.

Go check cap friendly for yourself.

But its *EFFECT* on the cap (ie. how much it takes up, thus how much is left for the team to spend after that contract) doesn't apply until the season it kicks in.

For instance, if you're a GM trying to determine how much cap space you have to make additions to your club, all you care about for that season is the cap hits that apply to that season.

So if a GM was trying to build a roster, Crosby's latest contract would only be relevant to him in the season it kicked in since that would be the year it affected his ability to sign other contracts. Likewise, Tavares' contract kicks in this year, so this year is the year the contract affects the Leafs' ability to add to their roster.

I mean, we're going off topic of what my original point was, now. But it's just common sense to look at the year the contract actually kicked in to determine the percentage it takes up of the cap since that's the season it actually AFFECTS the team's cap.

 

[J T Money]

Point is vastly underrated and is shaping up to be Bergeron-like with his defensive abilities. His next contract will be a bridge deal like every single other drafted player in the Yzerman era.

Picked Tampa but in all honesty, you could pick any of the Caps, Pens, Jets, Leafs and Bolts and you wouldn't be wrong...extremely little to no gap between each teams forward cores.

 

[X66]

I mean, we're going off topic of what my original point was, now. But it's just common sense to look at the year the contract actually kicked in to determine the percentage it takes up of the cap since that's the season it actually AFFECTS the team's cap.

The reason they don't look at the percentage when the contract kicks in because there are chances for the cap to go up or down, so you won't have people saying things like "Crosby signed for 20% of the cap" because the cap just happened to go down.

That's why cap hit percentages are always calculated on the day of that cap, and that's how it is officially recorded.

 

[Snowman]

IMO, Winnipeg would be first, then Tampa.