Better forward group: Tampa, Toronto or Other?

[hockeyguy1967]

I keep seeing folks saying it's one or the other. Who do you think has the best forward group? If it's a different team then name them.

Tampa/Winnipeg
Pitts
Washington/Leafs

 

[hockeyguy1967]

I don't know why you choose to compare Nylander to Kucherov then say Tavares>Point

Top tier:
Matthews
Tavares

vs

Kucherov
Stamkos

High end Talent:
Marner
Nylander
Kadri

vs.

Point
Gourde
Johnson

Depth top 9:
Brown
Johnsson
Marleau
Hyman

vs.

Killorn
Palat
Miller

The Leafs have a deeper group with more talent IMO. Jets are the only other team that can compete up front IMO. Pens are good but don't have any winger depth.

I would much rather have Point than Tavares going forward.

 

[Garthinater]

To close to call. Between Winnipeg, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Toronto and Washington there isn't a ton of separation.

Imo, the three best going forward will be wpg, tbl and tml.
The leafs added the biggest piece (jt) so I could see them pull ahead.

It comes down to how well the young guys learn and improve.

 

[Critical13]

Stop putting Gourde and Marner as equal. It's making my eye twitch when I read that.

Agreed. Tampa is a top of the leauge team with a multitude of stars. Not sure why their fanbase needs to pump up Gourde and Point so much. Very good players, but reading some of these threads, you would think they were the run away cup champs in the middle of a dynasty.

Gourde does not have the offensive talent of Marner, and I don't think I am being a homer saying that there is a lot of separation between the two. Marner carried the Leafs offence for two months and the playoffs as a 20 year old winger.

Can you imagine if I compared Hyman (decent advanced stats, 37 5v5 points last season) to guys like Pavelski (36 5v5), Trocheck (32 5v5) or Honrqvist (26 5v5). Those are very clearly better, more talented players. The 5v5 points comparison doesn't tell me a whole lot.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

I would much rather have Point than Tavares going forward.

Point has a 66 point career high while playing 2nd line competition... you want him over John Tavares? OK!

 

[Connor McConnor]

Tampa but it's close. I like their depth players much more and they play a better 2-way game from what we've seen so far.

 

[StoneHands]

Point has a 66 point career high while playing 2nd line competition... you want him over John Tavares? OK!

Point had 1 less point than Tavares did in his second NHL season and was also 8th in Selke voting. Taking a 22 year old point over a 28 year old Tavares isn't all that crazy when you consider age and contracts. I would rather have Tavares though.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Point has a 66 point career high while playing 2nd line competition... you want him over John Tavares? OK!

Yes, he is 22 came off of a PPG playoffs. Tavares is 28 this season and will be trending down, not to mention he makes 11M. It really is not close.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Point has a 66 point career high while playing 2nd line competition... you want him over John Tavares? OK!

While I mostly agree with your sentiment, Tavares is 28 with an 11m cap hit for the next 7 years which will take him to 35. Point is a 22 year old just coming off his ELC this year. Tampa also still has to pay Vasi soon. From a numbers POV it's not that absurd of a point. Also you add in the fact Tampa already has a #1C and Tavares would basically be a #2C, I think Point actually makes more sense for Tampa moving forward.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Yes, he is 22 came off of a PPG playoffs. Tavares is 28 this season and will be trending down, not to mention he makes 11M. It really is not close.

Point is a great player but this goes both ways... I could argue that I’d rather have nylander or marner than Stamkos too because of their age and trending stats for players entering their third season, but I’d get laughed out of here.

You hope that one day point gets an 11 mil contract because it would mean that he exceeded expectations. Plus for this thread we are talking current state, not future potential, which the leafs would win hands down...

 

[LordZapp]

Point has a 66 point career high while playing 2nd line competition... you want him over John Tavares? OK!

Just curious where do you get your information from? This is just flat out wrong. Stop spewing incorrect information as if it is fact.

 

[Critical13]

Point had 1 less point than Tavares did in his second NHL season and was also 8th in Selke voting. Taking a 22 year old point over a 28 year old Tavares isn't all that crazy when you consider age and contracts. I would rather have Tavares though.

Ask yourself this - what would Point's year looked like if he played on some of those early 2000 Islander teams?

It's like comparing Kurri's numbers to Keller's. Teammates heavily influence production for all but a very chosen few. Bad argument. I don't mind saying you'd rather take Point over Tavares...to each his own I guess. To compare their career's is a bit a of a joke, though. The Selke part is a worthwhile argument but it doesn't close a 20 point gap.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Just curious where do you get your information from? This is just flat out wrong. Stop spewing incorrect information as if it is fact.

Did Stamkos play 2nd line competition? I could very well be wrong because im not claiming to know the lightning as well as you do... I'm making assumptions as a fan of another team...

 

[LordZapp]

Did Stamkos play 2nd line competition? I could very well be wrong because im not claiming to know the lightning as well as you do... I'm making assumptions as a fan of another team...

Yes, stamkos did play 2nd line competition. Point was relied upon to shut down teams top lines night in and night out. Props to admitting that you were assuming though.

 

[Erndog]

I think the top 3 are, in some order, Tampa, Toronto and Pittsburgh. I think Winnipeg is just outside this group ever so slightly as their 2nd line C isn't anywhere near as good as the first 3 teams. But the separation between these 4 is very, very small. I hate reading the ridiculous stuff here like "it's team X AINEC". It's quite clearly VERY close between these teams.

It's literally going to come down to 2 things. Health and luck. That's it.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Point is a great player but this goes both ways... I could argue that I’d rather have nylander or marner than Stamkos too because of their age and trending stats for players entering their third season, but I’d get laughed out of here.

You hope that one day point gets an 11 mil contract because it would mean that he exceeded expectations. Plus for this thread we are talking current state, not future potential, which the leafs would win hands down...

Not the same thing. Stamkos has produced more then Tavares over the years including a better season last year. He is also making 2.5M less and only signed for 6 more years. Tavares makes 11M for 8 more years.
[email protected]>>>>Tavares@11x8
Point=Marner>>>>>>>>Nylander
Not fair comparison and not sure why Nylander is even there. It is a slap to the face to compare him to Point or Marner, he is soft as baby shit and wilts in the playoffs.

 

[StoneHands]

Point is a great player but this goes both ways... I could argue that I’d rather have nylander or marner than Stamkos too because of their age and trending stats for players entering their third season, but I’d get laughed out of here.

You hope that one day point gets an 11 mil contract because it would mean that he exceeded expectations. Plus for this thread we are talking current state, not future potential, which the leafs would win hands down...

There are a few factors involved here. Stamkos has 6 years left at $8.5m instead of 7 years at $11m for Tavares. That's significant the the discussion. Point is also IMO a better player than Nylander right now. That could change or maybe it doesn't. They are similar offensively and Point is a much better two-way player and also plays a more important position.

On the other hand, if you said you would take Marner over Stamkos going forward I wouldn't call you crazy. I'd take Stamkos because he has a nice contract but the argument is valid.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Not the same thing. Stamkos has produced more then Tavares over the years including a better season last year. He is also making 2.5M less and only signed for 6 more years. Tavares makes 11M for 8 more years.
[email protected]>>>>Tavares@11x8
Point=Marner>>>>>>>>Nylander
Not fair comparison and not sure why Nylander is even there. It is a slap to the face to compare him to Point or Marner, he is soft as baby **** and wilts in the playoffs.

Sorry but that's wrong. He's going to have a fantastic year this season and is very much on the same level as those other guys. His skating is next level and he has fantastic vision and a good shot. I expect him to get around 75 points this year if Matthews is his healthy C all season.

 

[Peiskos]

Toronto has superior centre depth to Tampa, aka the most important position upfront.

With three 30+ goal centres in Matthews-Tavares-Kadri.

Simply based on that the answer to this question is Toronto. Diving deeper into this comparison Toronto's supporting cast of Marleau, Marner, Nylander, Johnsson, Kapanen, Brown is easily on par with what Tampa has also.

Tampa edges the Leafs on D though and I would argue that goaltending is fairly even.

 

[Atomos2]

Point had 1 less point than Tavares did in his second NHL season and was also 8th in Selke voting. Taking a 22 year old point over a 28 year old Tavares isn't all that crazy when you consider age and contracts. I would rather have Tavares though.

This Point vs Tavares narrative needs to stop. This kid is getting massively overrated. Tavares is a franchise two time Hart finalist. It is crazy even with age and contracts. If Point was THAT good, his contract would be worth the same as Tavares. Like Matthews.

 

[DieTomi]

We have the better centres but Tampa is stronger throughout.

 

[StoneHands]

Ask yourself this - what would Point's year looked like if he played on some of those early 2000 Islander teams?

There's really no way of knowing. Does Point also lay on the 1st PP like Tavares did? Point's line was drawing the tough matchups so it's not like he was getting easy minutes this year.

It's like comparing Kurri's numbers to Keller's. Teammates heavily influence production for all but a very chosen few. Bad argument. I don't mind saying you'd rather take Point over Tavares...to each his own I guess. To compare their career's is a bit a of a joke, though. The Selke part is a worthwhile argument but it doesn't close a 20 point gap.

Are you really comparing an Edmonton team with Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, and Coffee to this Tampa team? Are Gourde and Palat/Johnson better than Moulson and Parenteau? Sure, but it's not some crazy gap in talent. Even if you taake Points numbers last season with a grain of salt, it's not hard to make an argument that he could be a 70 point Selke contender moving forward. If that's the case, it's not hard to say that you would take that kind of player at 22 years old over a 28 year old on a max length deal at $11m per.

 

[Peiskos]

This Point vs Tavares narrative needs to stop. This kid is getting massively overrated. Tavares is a franchise two time Hart finalist. It is crazy even with age and contracts. If Point was THAT good, his contract would be worth the same as Tavares.

What else is new? when Tavares was still an Islander, nobody would dare compare Brayden Point to him, but now that he's on the Leafs he's getting compared to him lol.

Point is more comparable to a player like Nylander/Marner at this point, not JT.

 

[Pyrophorus]

There are a few factors involved here. Stamkos has 6 years left at $8.5m instead of 7 years at $11m for Tavares. That's significant the the discussion.

I disagree, I didn't think we were talking about the cap/term at all. Just depth/production.

Point is also IMO a better player than Nylander right now. That could change or maybe it doesn't. They are similar offensively and Point is a much better two-way player and also plays a more important position.

Nylander led the league, in offense from stick checks. I think this fallacy of him not being defensively sound needs to end.
He too plays C. +20 vs. +18 too.

On the other hand, if you said you would take Marner over Stamkos going forward I wouldn't call you crazy. I'd take Stamkos because he has a nice contract but the argument is valid.

Contracts are significant in your first paragraph, but not on this last point?

 

[Critical13]

There's really no way of knowing. Does Point also lay on the 1st PP like Tavares did? Point's line was drawing the tough matchups so it's not like he was getting easy minutes this year.


Are you really comparing an Edmonton team with Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, and Coffee to this Tampa team? Are Gourde and Palat/Johnson better than Moulson and Parenteau? Sure, but it's not some crazy gap in talent. Even if you taake Points numbers last season with a grain of salt, it's not hard to make an argument that he could be a 70 point Selke contender moving forward. If that's the case, it's not hard to say that you would take that kind of player at 22 years old over a 28 year old on a max length deal at $11m per.

The comparison was made with hyperbole on purpose. If you think I was actually trying to compare an all time great to a good player from our era, I am not sure it's even worth the time debating.