Better forward group: Tampa, Toronto or Other?

[ManofSteel55]

Of the two listed, Tampa, but I voted other because of Winnipeg.

 

[God King Fudge]

It's Tampa, easily.

 

[Critical13]

Idk, Gourde had a significantly higher Es scoring rate and was much less sheltered (identical QoC but Gourde had much higher d zone start percentage and much lower QoT). Most of their underlying numbers were pretty similar despite the major difference in deployment.

Just out of curiousity, do you actually think Gourde is on par with Marner? For example, if Marner was available, would you expect Gourde + small add would be fair?

Also, I get why we fawn over 5v5 stats, but being an elite creator on the PP is far too often considered a negative around here. HF is going a bit off the rails with their devaluing of PP production. Nylander was a better 5v5 player than Laine, Scheifele, Barkov, Backstrom and Tarasenko but I wouldn't make the case that he's better for that reason.

I think Winnipeg, Tampa, Toronto, Pitt and Washington are the clear front runners here. Not sure if there is a ton of separation. Seems quite even.

 

[LetsGoBLUES91]

I'll say other and go with WPG. Although for this poll its close probably Tampa. They are 2 and 3.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'm curious to hear what your argument is that Toronto's wingers are better than Tampa, Philly, or Winnipeg for this upcoming season. I can see the argument for 2-3 years down the line but for this season I don't think they're better than any of these 3. After Marner and Nylander it's really not very impressive.

Toronto
Marner, Nylander, Marleau, Hyman, Brown, Kapanen

Tampa
Kucherov, Gourde, Miller, Palat, Killorn, Callahan

Philly
Giroux, Voracek, Konecny, JvR, Simmonds, Lindblom

Winnipeg
Wheeler, Laine, Ehlers, Connor, Perreault, Lowry/Armia

First off Armia is in Montreal.

Tampa has Kucherov but after him Toronto has the better group, Marner and Nylander themselves are better than Miller, Palat, Killorn, Gourde, and certainly Callahan.

Toronto has a better group than Philly, Philly has a good top 2 but again Nylander and Marner themselves are better than Konecny, JVR Simmonds and Lindblom, and let's make it clear I love JVR but he's not in the class of Marner or Nylander, and once you start adding Marleau and Hyman and Brown, Kapan and Johnsson to the mix

Philly VD Toronto isn't close.

Winnipeg VS Toronto winger wise is close but as I in the post you qouted Toronto has 3 30 goal centers that puts their forward group over the top

 

[Volica]

First off Armia is in Montreal.

Tampa has Kucherov but after him Toronto has the better group, Marner and Nylander themselves are better than Miller, Palat, Killorn, Gourde, and certainly Callahan.

Toronto has a better group than Philly, Philly has a good top 2 but again Nylander and Marner themselves are better than Konecny, JVR Simmonds and Lindblom, and let's make it clear I love JVR but he's not in the class of Marner or Nylander, and once you start adding Marleau and Hyman and Brown, Kapan and Johnsson to the mix

Philly VD Toronto isn't close.

Winnipeg VS Toronto winger wise is close but as I in the post you qouted Toronto has 3 30 goal centers that puts their forward group over the top

Nylander better than Simmonds.
Love it.

I think Toronto has a stronger group, because of down the middle, but let's not be silly.

 

[Romang67]

Winnipeg VS Toronto winger wise is close but as I in the post you qouted Toronto has 3 30 goal centers that puts their forward group over the top

Our top 4 scoring wingers currently on the team combined for 127 goals and 277 points last season. Your top 4 scoring wingers currently on the team combined for 84 goals and 217 points.

How is that close?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Nylander better than Simmonds.
Love it.

I think Toronto has a stronger group, because of down the middle, but let's not be silly.

Nylander is better than Simmonds, I'd LOVE to add Simmonds to this team but I assure you if that ever happened it's not Nylander spot he gets, it's probably Hyman who gets bumped down

 

[StoneHands]

First off Armia is in Montreal.

Tampa has Kucherov but after him Toronto has the better group, Marner and Nylander themselves are better than Miller, Palat, Killorn, Gourde, and certainly Callahan.

Toronto has a better group than Philly, Philly has a good top 2 but again Nylander and Marner themselves are better than Konecny, JVR Simmonds and Lindblom, and let's make it clear I love JVR but he's not in the class of Marner or Nylander, and once you start adding Marleau and Hyman and Brown, Kapan and Johnsson to the mix

Philly VD Toronto isn't close.

Winnipeg VS Toronto winger wise is close but as I in the post you qouted Toronto has 3 30 goal centers that puts their forward group over the top

Why are you comparing Marner and Nylander to the Flyers 3rd to 6th best wingers? That would be like me saying Marner and Nylander are good but Giroux and Voracek themselves are better than Marleau, Hyman, Brown, and Kapanen. See how that doesn't make much sense?

Let's break it down player by player.
Giroux>Marner
Voracek>Nylander
JvR>Marleau
Konecny>Hyman
Simmonds>Brown
Lindblom<=Kapanen

Is any of that even debatable? Toronto wingers are better than Philly and it's not even close? Seriously?

Is there ANY other Leafs fan that honestly believes what you said is true or are you just a massive homer?

 

[JoVel]

Just out of curiousity, do you actually think Gourde is on par with Marner? For example, if Marner was available, would you expect Gourde + small add would be fair?

Come on, dont be silly....


... it would be Marner + small add for Gourde.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Just out of curiousity, do you actually think Gourde is on par with Marner? For example, if Marner was available, would you expect Gourde + small add would be fair?

Also, I get why we fawn over 5v5 stats, but being an elite creator on the PP is far too often considered a negative around here. HF is going a bit off the rails with their devaluing of PP production. Nylander was a better 5v5 player than Laine, Scheifele, Barkov, Backstrom and Tarasenko but I wouldn't make the case that he's better for that reason.

I think Winnipeg, Tampa, Toronto, Pitt and Washington are the clear front runners here. Not sure if there is a ton of separation. Seems quite even.

The age gap and gourde’s soon ufa status makes the trade value not work

 

[Master P]

Andersen is better than Vasilevskiy. Tampa’s defense is better than Toronto’s.

No........No he is not

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Miller>>Marleau - Stamkos<Matthews - Kucherov >>>>>Nylander (no hate on Willy tho, Kuch is just a superstar)
Palat>>>>>Hyman - Point<Tavares - Marner=Gourde (hot take)
Killorn>>>Johnsson - Cirelli<<<<<Kadri - Johnson>>Brown
Erne<<Leivo - Paquette>>X - Callahan<<<Kapanen

Prob tampa

I don't know why you choose to compare Nylander to Kucherov then say Tavares>Point

Top tier:
Matthews
Tavares

vs

Kucherov
Stamkos

High end Talent:
Marner
Nylander
Kadri

vs.

Point
Gourde
Johnson

Depth top 9:
Brown
Johnsson
Marleau
Hyman

vs.

Killorn
Palat
Miller

The Leafs have a deeper group with more talent IMO. Jets are the only other team that can compete up front IMO. Pens are good but don't have any winger depth.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

I don't know why you choose to compare Nylander to Kucherov then say Tavares>Point

Top tier:
Matthews
Tavares

vs

Kucherov
Stamkos

High end Talent:
Marner
Nylander
Kadri

vs.

Point
Gourde
Johnson

Depth top 9:
Brown
Johnsson
Marleau
Hyman

vs.

Killorn
Palat
Miller

The Leafs have a deeper group with more talent IMO. Jets are the only other team that can compete up front IMO. Pens are good but don't have any winger depth.

Johnson is not better than Killorn Palat or Miller. Those last 3 are closer to Gourde than to Johnson. Point is closer to Stamkos than to Gourde. I just compared by projected lines.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Johnson is not better than Killorn Palat or Miller. Those last 3 are closer to Gourde than to Johnson. Point is closer to Stamkos than to Gourde. I just compared by projected lines.

Point compares closely to Kadri and Miller or Palat dont come close in talent to the three on the Leafs side. If anything i'd move Johnson down a teir and that just stresses the advantage for Toronto.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Point compares closely to Kadri and Miller or Palat dont come close in talent to the three on the Leafs side. If anything i'd move Johnson down a teir and that just stresses the advantage for Toronto.

I’ll just rank them in my opinion.

Kucherov
Matthews
Tavares/Stamkos
Point


Nylander/Kadri
Gourde/Marner
Palat/Miller/Killorn

Marleau
Johnson/Johnsson/Cirelli

Kapanen/Hyman
Brown
Leivo
Paquette/Callahan
Erne
Leafs 4c (Lindholm maybe)


IMO

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I’ll just rank them in my opinion.

Kucherov
Matthews
Tavares/Stamkos
Point


Nylander/Kadri
Gourde/Marner
Palat/Miller/Killorn

Marleau
Johnson/Johnsson/Cirelli

Kapanen/Hyman
Brown
Leivo
Paquette/Callahan
Erne
Leafs 4c (Lindholm maybe)


IMO

Stop putting Gourde and Marner as equal. It's making my eye twitch when I read that.

 

[La Masse]

Idk, Gourde had a significantly higher Es scoring rate and was much less sheltered (identical QoC but Gourde had much higher d zone start percentage and much lower QoT). Most of their underlying numbers were pretty similar despite the major difference in deployment.

The only reason Marner was sheltered was because he had to play with Bozak and JVR who were the two weakest defensive forwards. Once he got paired up with Naz, he was even going against the opposition’s best lines. I wouldnt be surprised to see Marner lead the Leafs in points this year with JT in the middle

 

[La Masse]

Stop putting Gourde and Marner as equal. It's making my eye twitch when I read that.

I dont know how he has Nylander higher then Marner considering Marner has outscored him so far. They should be equal or give a slight edge to Marner

 

[StoneHands]

I didn't leave out Philly's top 2 was good but that Nylander and Marner by themselves beat the rest and once you start adding on What's behind Marner and Nylander then it's not close .

See? You are so anti Leaf that it caused you to see things that weren't there

Let's break it down player by player.

Giroux>Marner
Voracek>Nylander
JvR>Marleau
Konecny>Hyman
Simmonds>Brown
Lindblom<=Kapanen

Toronto wingers>Philly and it's not close? Seriously? Please explain how you came to this asinine opinion.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I dont know how he has Nylander higher then Marner considering Marner has outscored him so far. They should be equal or give a slight edge to Marner

I'm pretty sure he's basing things on his new interest in various advanced stats that emphasize 5 on 5 play. And since the Nylander/Matthews/Hyman line were very good 5 on 5, that probably weighs heavily in his ranking of Nylander above Marner.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

LoL

what are you laughing about? Nylander is certainly better than Simmonds

 

[StoneHands]

what are you laughing about? Nylander is certainly better than Simmonds

At this point in their careers I would take Nylander over Simmonds. That I don't disagree with at all but the idea that Toronto's wingers are better than Philly's (which is what he was replying to) is laughable.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

At this point in their careers I would take Nylander over Simmonds. That I don't disagree with at all but the idea that Toronto's wingers are better than Philly's (which is what he was replying to) is laughable.

yeah I'd take Philadelphia's wingers, but Toronto's overall forward group probably. But that guy was laughing at Nylander over Simmonds, which doesn't really make any sense

 

[StoneHands]

yeah I'd take Philadelphia's wingers, but Toronto's overall forward group probably. But that guy was laughing at Nylander over Simmonds, which doesn't really make any sense

Totally agree with Nylander over Simmonds. The overall forward group is close but I would go with Toronto because Philly doesn't have a legit 3c and Kadri tips the scales for me.