Speculation: Arizona only has 5 players signed for next season

[Jumptheshark]

The question is a logical fallacy called black and white. You presented two alternatives as the only possibilities when in fact more possibilities exist.

You are Francis leading up to the draft. Francis did try to look into but teams to flip Tatasenko to, but it sounded like the best offer he got was a 2nd rounder and seattle keeps 50%.

Teams learned from the Vegas expansion and were not doing the same thing again yet people are suggesting Seattle could have if they wanted to.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I’m sorry but you haven’t been paying as close attention as you believe. This regime is the first that’s actually doing what’s needed to be done since 1999. The organization finally has a coherent plan with at least a chance of success. They have all the right people in place to see it through. Ownership claims to be committed to allowing it to be seen through. Execution and patience are all that remains (which is most of the equation, obviously). We’ll see.

You guys said a whole lot of high praises for that Chayka dude too…

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

You'll have a hard time reaching the cap floor you say?

Well then, let me introduce you to a slightly abused Shea Weber.
A slightly used Brendan Gallagher and a formidable playmaker in Jonny Drouin.

Also all three have experience in commercials so they can make you money in that regard as well.

 

[LoneFunyan]

NVM

 

[Heldig]

You guys said a whole lot of high praises for that Chayka dude too…

Completely different scenarios...

The early hype around Chyka was in large part due to the new focus on analytics. He was young, highly successful in business and had some swagger (turns out he was really cocky). It was easy to root for him at the beginning. MOST Coyotes fans also wanted an experienced NHL guy to help guide him / reign him in. That didnt happen.

The group now have decades of combined experience in multiple levels of hockey operations.

 

[Mike Jones]

You are Francis leading up to the draft. Francis did try to look into but teams to flip Tatasenko to, but it sounded like the best offer he got was a 2nd rounder and seattle keeps 50%.

Teams learned from the Vegas expansion and were not doing the same thing again yet people are suggesting Seattle could have if they wanted to.

They could have and should have. No excuses. Yes, the market changed but paid professionals like Francis have to read the changes, go with them and do what they can accordingly.

BTW - a 2nd round pick in exchange for $7.5 million (What Seattle would have retained in the deal) spread over two years is pretty good.

 

[Rubi]

Its always easier to move when you have very little furniture.

 

[Seattlebjprice]

Always good when you have a billion dollar competitive industry and you’ve sucked at marketing so hard you have teams like this.

nhl is a clown show.

So many greedy old clowns stealing your money.

you should NOT accept this. You should be upset this is allowed to occur.

It should be ENTIRELY unacceptable that a team can tank while ticket prices are what they are.

this league is going to die.

it’ll be dead and buried within 10 years. It’s obvious at a tipping point with a frozen cap, a pandemic, and trash teams like this.

hurry and put ads on the jerseys to kick the can 5 years

 

[Oddbob]

It would be hard if the narrative you just described actually had truth to it. But it doesn’t. And it’s not.

He actually described it pretty well, honestly. I know you are one of the few legit Yotes fans who actually care about the team, reality is most of Arizona doesn't care about hockey and never will. They have had this trend of drafting high, the player gets good and the team never improves and they all leave, minus a few like Shane Doan who stay there for the duration. Even OEL who many Yotes fans said would never leave, left. They get a mix of good young players and start improving a bit, and then they don't pay to either improve the club or let the new good players leave. Right now they paid to keep Chychrun and Keller for example, but if they don't ever give them talent to improve they will eventually get sick of it, if they have any desire to play on a year in year out contending team.

This year, they put together on purpose the worst paper team one could imagine and that is embarrassing. It is one thing to trade off your top end talent and fill it in with a least decent guys to get through a season, but they signed Carter Hutton to be their starter, when he had been bad for awhile. Now they are forced to play a rookie who is probably not ready to play everynight in Vejmelka. They had no center depth and traded Dvorak for picks, leaving them even poorer there. If you are a Coyotes fan who actually goes to games, what incentive is there for most of their history to pay money to watch this team?

 

[rt]

He actually described it pretty well, honestly.

Honestly, he didn't describe it well at all, actually.

 

[Oddbob]

Honestly, he didn't describe it well at all, actually.

He did though. Arizona is doing the same thing they always do. What have they done any differently than the past?

Start bad - Check
Stockpile Picks - Check
Eventually start improving- Check
Don't make necessary moves to keep talent or improve talent- Check
Rinse and Repeat - Check

Only once in franchise history have they actually tried to win, and that was the Tkachuk/Roenick era where they were at least trying to win.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Completely different scenarios...

The early hype around Chyka was in large part due to the new focus on analytics. He was young, highly successful in business and had some swagger (turns out he was really cocky). It was easy to root for him at the beginning. MOST Coyotes fans also wanted an experienced NHL guy to help guide him / reign him in. That didnt happen.

The group now have decades of combined experience in multiple levels of hockey operations.

Decades of experience isn’t always a good thing. There’s a lot of “experienced” guys out there who seemingly have no idea what they are doing

 

[Heldig]

Only once in franchise history have they actually tried to win, and that was the Tkachuk/Roenick era where they were at least trying to win.

Yup. So that 3 year span where they were a very good team (including a trip to the conference final) they were not trying to win?

And Roenick and Tkachuk were long gone.

And part of the mess they are in now was because they got caught up in trying to compete and traded away assets for Taylor Hall.

 

[AZviaNJ]

He did though. Arizona is doing the same thing they always do. What have they done any differently than the past?

Start bad - Check
Stockpile Picks - Check
Eventually start improving- Check
Don't make necessary moves to keep talent or improve talent- Check
Rinse and Repeat - Check

Only once in franchise history have they actually tried to win, and that was the Tkachuk/Roenick era where they were at least trying to win.

They weren’t trying to win when they they won the Pacific and went to the WCF in 2012? Averaged over 100 points between 2010-2012.

 

[rt]

He did though. Arizona is doing the same thing they always do. What have they done any differently than the past?

Start bad - Check
Stockpile Picks - Check
Eventually start improving- Check
Don't make necessary moves to keep talent or improve talent- Check
Rinse and Repeat - Check

Only once in franchise history have they actually tried to win, and that was the Tkachuk/Roenick era where they were at least trying to win.

I’ll take the time to explain it if you promise to actually read it. Deal?

The Coyotes have failed due to not drafting enough, drafting poorly, and developing badly.

In the last two off-seasons, the Coyotes have hired:

General Manager
Bill Armstrong:
STL Scout - 6yrs
STL Dir. Scouting - 8yrs
STL Asst. General Mgr - 2yrs

Scouting Director
Darryl Plandowski:
BUF Scout - 8yrs
PIT Scout - 2yrs
TBL Head Scout - 11yrs
TBL Dir. Scouting - 2yrs

Associate Scouting Director
Ryan Jankowski:
NYI Scout: 2yrs
NYI Asst. General Mgr: 5yrs
MTL Scout: 3yrs
BUF Dir. Scouting - 3yrs

Director of Scouting
Alan Hepple:
NSH Scout: 5yrs
COL Scout: 7yrs
COL Asst. Dir. Scouting: 6yrs
COL Dir. Scouting 6yrs

Head Coach
Andre Tourigny:
QMJHL GM/Head Coach: 11yrs
COL Asst. Coach: 2yrs
OTT (NHL) Asst. Coach: 1yr
OHL VP Hockey Ops/Head Coach: 4yrs
Team Canada U18 Asst. Coach: 1yr
Team Canada U18 Head Coach: 1yr
Team Canada U20 Asst. Coach: 4yrs
Team Canada U20 Head Coach: 1yr
Team Canada WC Asst Coach: 1yr
QMJHL COY: 1yr
OHL COY: 2yrs
CHL COY: 1yr

Assistant GM
John Ferguson:
OTT Scout: 3yrs
STL Asst.GM/Dir.Ops: 7yrs
TOR General Manager 5yrs
SJS Dir. Scouting: 6yrs
BOS Dir. Player Pers./AHL GM: 7yrs

Development Staff
Scott Pellerin:
TOR Dir. Player Dev.: 7yrs

Development Staff
David Oliver:
AHL General Manager: 2yrs
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev./AHL GM: 1yr
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev./AHL Dir.Ops: 1yr
AHL Asst.Coach/Dir.Ops: 2yrs
AHL Dir. Hockey Ops: 1yr
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev.: 4yrs
NYR Asst. Coach: 3yrs
---
In the last two off-seasons the Coyotes have acquired:

2021 - 1st VAN (9th overall)
2021 - 2nd CBJ (37th overall)
2021 - 2nd COL (60th overall)

2022 - 1st MTL
2022 - 1st COL
2022 - 2nd SJS
2022 - 2nd PHI
2022 - 2nd VAN
2022 - 2nd NYI

2024 - 2nd MTL
2024 - 2nd FLA

Conor Timmins (22)
Josef Korenar (23)
Dylan Guenther (18)
Josh Doan (19)
Ilya Fedotov (18)
JJ Moser (21)
Cole Hults (23)
Vladislav Kolyachonok (20)

---

They hired a bunch of really highly regarded young talent identifiers, and a bunch of really highly regarded young talent developers, and then they went out and acquired an absolutely unprecedented haul of young assets under 25 years of age. So now all of those newly hired, highly regarded young talent identifiers can locate the best young talent and all of those newly hired, highly regarded young talent developers can make sure they are brought along correctly, and progress according to plan.

It's easy for dopes who don't pay attention to say "yeah, yeah, we've seen it all before" but we really haven't. Not if you actually look. If you have a brain and you pay attention you can spot the difference. This is nothing like anything we've seen before. The Coyotes have absolutely never restructured an entire front-office, hockey ops, and coaching staffs to SPECIFICALLY accommodate an absolutely massive rebuild, based entirely on a proven track-record of success in young talent identification and development. And while the Coyotes have traded off a bunch of old players before, they've never torn it all the way down to 24 and under, and no team has ever accumulated that massive of a haul of under 24 assets in a single year.

Anyone who thinks all of this isn't wildly unprecedented isn't paying attention. Nobody ever does this. Nobody acquires 3 1sts, 8 2nds, a handful of good prospects under 25 in a single year. Nobody replaces their GM, AGM, Coaching Staff, Scouting Staff, and Development staff in a single year, while simultaneously tearing the entire roster down to the bare studs.

They did this in 12 months time.

 

[rt]

Ah, right that's true now isn't it. I forgot about that because it wasn't implemented in the past draft yet. Thanks for the correction. I stand by my point though.

You also need to remember that there is now a 10 spot move-up limit. This means the 12th-16th teams in the lottery cannot win 1st overall. So the 32nd ranked team gets those combined odds of RETAINING the 1st overall pick. You no longer only have odds for WINNING the pick. You can also retain. The the 32nd ranked team this season will have a COMBINED 25.7% chance at winning 1st overall. These are much better odds than in recent years. The league is not only failing to discourage tanking, they are actually INCENTIVIZING it right now.

 

[Hobnobs]

You are Francis leading up to the draft. Francis did try to look into but teams to flip Tatasenko to, but it sounded like the best offer he got was a 2nd rounder and seattle keeps 50%.

Teams learned from the Vegas expansion and were not doing the same thing again yet people are suggesting Seattle could have if they wanted to.

Wtf are you on about now?

 

[GhostofYotesFan47]

He did though. Arizona is doing the same thing they always do. What have they done any differently than the past?

Start bad - Check
Stockpile Picks - Check
Eventually start improving- Check
Don't make necessary moves to keep talent or improve talent- Check
Rinse and Repeat - Check

Only once in franchise history have they actually tried to win, and that was the Tkachuk/Roenick era where they were at least trying to win.

Don Maloney? They over achieved but they were trying to win. Chayka, was a shit show but they were trying to win. TGO, again, shit show but I highly doubt the goal was to be what they were.

We have an owner with money, for the first time since the moved to the desert, possibly (I was 8). We revamped the entire hockey Ops with guys that have track records of success (don't recall this ever happening here). We have a highly regarded rookie coach, known for building culture. We tore down the team following a pandemic when most teams have some money issues to take on bad cap and collect picks and undercut an expansion team (maybe) that wanted to pull the same move the previous expansion team did. It was a wise time to do this if we were going to do it.

I'm not happy we're rebuilding again but all signs point to this being well thought out.

So our issues are a crappy roster which will get better and needing a new arena/lease. Not seeing the doom and gloom posters are presenting.

 

[Hobnobs]

Don Maloney? They over achieved but they were trying to win. Chayka, was a shit show but they were trying to win. TGO, again, shit show but I highly doubt the goal was to be what they were.

We have an owner with money, for the first time since the moved to the desert, possibly (I was 8). We revamped the entire hockey Ops with guys that have track records of success (don't recall this ever happening here). We have a highly regarded rookie coach, known for building culture. We tore down the team following a pandemic when most teams have some money issues to take on bad cap and collect picks and undercut an expansion team (maybe) that wanted to pull the same move the previous expansion team did. It was a wise time to do this if we were going to do it.

I'm not happy we're rebuilding again but all signs point to this being well thought out.

So our issues are a crappy roster which will get better and needing a new arena/lease. Not seeing the doom and gloom posters are presenting.

Nah you had money back in the late 90s but you spent it on guys like Roenick, Tocchet, Gartner just to keep the jets tradition of being bounced in the first round alive. This was when Doan was a 4th liner.

I hope things turn around tho. And that some fans starts turning up to games. Because its bad and has been for a while now...

 

[Idlerlee]

At this point it must be hard to be a Yotes fan. You just listed the problem with this team. Cap constraints. Dump talent when they are to get paid.

Year after year rinse and repeat. Move out the main quality talent for futures. The bring in bloated contracts of depth over the hill guys. Along with high cap hit contracts but minimal actual salary for the players.

Like how do they really expect to build a contender in the desert or even a playoff tram recycling and repeating this blueprint.

I know Bettman doesn't want to admit or dismantle but how many more years of it can they afford to take.

Like I not a fan of the team but I've been wanting to see them be successful from the earlier years when they had like Doan / Morris and such. The fans are passionate there especially when competitive. I remember the huge whiteout in those playoff runs.

Like this team is so far from that. Even if they draft amazing. Do you really think the organization is keeping them based when they want their huge 8yr loaded deal. Probably not.

Like 5 players for next season is crazy.

You have to wonder what NHL player genuinely wants to go there when the organization is in this much of a downward trend. They're already at the bottom and they want to rebuild. A colossal career damper to go there in its current state.

 

[GhostofYotesFan47]

You have to wonder what NHL player genuinely wants to go there when the organization is in this much of a downward trend. They're currently in a rebuild. A colossal career damper to go there in its current state.

Fixed it for ya.

We're not trying to get guys that will move us up the standings this year, we want character players looking for a last ditch effort to play in the NHL. In 2-3 years, maybe that statement holds weight but today, saying that is fortune telling. If we land Wright and another top prospect in the next draft, show we have a competent owner and management staff, have a new arena finishing construction, and improve our record, why wouldn't a sought after FA want to sign here?

I agree, today no one not on their last chance wants to be here, can't say that will be true in 3 years.

 

[Idlerlee]

Fixed it for ya.

We're not trying to get guys that will move us up the standings this year, we want character players looking for a last ditch effort to play in the NHL. In 2-3 years, maybe that statement holds weight but today, saying that is fortune telling. If we land Wright and another top prospect in the next draft, show we have a competent owner and management staff, have a new arena finishing construction, and improve our record, why wouldn't a sought after FA want to sign here?

I agree, today no one not on their last chance wants to be here, can't say that will be true in 3 years.

I hope they're able to draft a stud and get going again. I've had a softspot ever since Stepan got traded there from New York

 

[JasonDemersWasOkay]

A positive is that the farm system has improved a lot. The coyotes have been able to develop guys like bunting and garland and have now integrated Capobianco, mayo and Dineen and they don’t look so out of place. Tucson is doing a good job growing the forward talent as well so guys should be able to fill in more next year along with whoever gets drafted in the top 3.

Supplement that with a few more veteran signings or cap-space weapon used trades like how they got Stralman and Ghost and they’ll be able to fill in a roster next year.

 

[Boondock]

yeah as soon as the players they draft will be ready players that are in their prime years are going to leave because they don't want to waste their best years wasted away... this isn't NHL 22 their players are gonna be frustrated stuck in a rebuild for a several years.

If history holds true, they will leave when it's time for a big pay long term payday.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

You also need to remember that there is now a 10 spot move-up limit. This means the 12th-16th teams in the lottery cannot win 1st overall. So the 32nd ranked team gets those combined odds of RETAINING the 1st overall pick. You no longer only have odds for WINNING the pick. You can also retain. The the 32nd ranked team this season will have a COMBINED 25.7% chance at winning 1st overall. These are much better odds than in recent years. The league is not only failing to discourage tanking, they are actually INCENTIVIZING it right now.

I thank you for that clarification, but I will say enduring a horrible year for a 1/4 chance isn't a ton of incentive.