Post-Game Talk: #5 - 10/13/18 | oilers @ RANGERS | 1:00 - MSG

[klingsor]

Spooner is just not a NHL player. 4m for 2 years of him -- why? 4m and 2 years for Names? We didn't want to pay JT Miller, okiiiiii. This is one thing that annoys the heck out of me.

But the majority of this board told me JT was lazy, stupid and invisible in the playoffs and that it would be a major mistake to re-sign this BOZO.

 

[bl02]

How would we replace Skjei? We don’t have another quality young defenseman.

Trading Skjei (unless we get a very good young dman back) will potentially set this rebuild back for sure. I like Hajek, Miller and some of our other d prospects but all they are is potential.

 

[Ail]

Just glancing at the standings, does anyone think this team is worse than Montreal or Ottawa, at least on paper? I don't, the Rangers could easily be sitting with them in the standings right now if they converted on an extra chance or two, or didn't get some horrific officiating. I think it is a pipe dream for the Rangers to keep losing like this all season. I'll be shocked if they finish lower than all 3 of MTL, DET, and OTT. Henrik is going to have more games against good teams like he did vs the Sharks. Goals will go in that aren't now, officiating won't blow forever.

I hope I'm wrong and they sink like a rock, but they haven't looked like a team that absolutely stinks as some of the other tankers in the recent past have.

 

[will1066]

I thought Vlasic never got himself in a pickle in the SJ game.

 

[will1066]

Anyway as far as the tank. I don't want my team just going through the motions. I think it's dangerous not to put out your best effort towards winning on each and every night. I don't want to see our players dogging it just to get a higher draft position.

As far as the officiating I expect some level of competency. Yesterday afternoon--fine for the first two periods but bull**** in the third. The failure to call a penalty on Garrison for hauling down Hayes from behind and then almost immediately handing out a bogus penalty to Namestnikov which leads to the game winning goal--the first (Garrison on Hayes) was an easy call for any referee at almost any level wether said referee was certified or not. That's a call that I expect even a recreation league ref to make practically every time. Missing that was so bad that IMO they should be embarrassed. As well the Staal penalty was another bogus call. I'm not going to say that these calls cost us two points but IMO we probably go to OT and get one anyway.

On those who want us to lose every game so as to get Hughes or Kakko. I don't know what you guys are bothering watching the games at all for. I haven't got that level of masochism. Do I think this team is going to the playoffs? No. Even so a team should try its hardest to do exactly that. Once it gets to February/March maybe if there's another purge losing as much as possible makes sense but you still want your young guys playing their hearts out and whatever vets are left showing them the right habits.

Build it the right way. Before it becomes a winning culture, it has to be a working hard culture. We're seeing that they're sticking up for each other.

We're seeing gradual improvements. I thought they defended well mostly last game, they had the layer system working aside from their breakdowns and bad line changes.

Quinn needs to keep things positive in there.

 

[CasusBelli]

Trading Skjei (unless we get a very good young dman back) will potentially set this rebuild back for sure. I like Hajek, Miller and some of our other d prospects but all they are is potential.

That, and I'd also imagine that their development would benefit from a quality defenseman who has developed within the organization (i.e., not Staal). Otherwise you end up with another Bouwmeester, whose development was delayed -- perhaps even stunted -- by a lack of proper mentoring or talent surrounding him.

 

[eco's bones]

Alright. I'll explain: Yes, I want the Rangers to get a high draft pick. Does that mean I root for them to lose? No.

However, if we lose I don't really feel a bad as I usually would. I also look for positives in a loss. I look at what our young guys are doing. Howden's goals, Chytil's rushes up the ice. That's what I look for during a rebuild

That's more than less where I am. I see these remarks sometimes though--like yesterday 'don't whine about the refs....we need to lose as much anyway' and I don't like it. I want to play hard and to win as much as possible. There are positives when seeing the growing pains that come with young players trying to make their mark and yesterday I very much looked at it as we got jobbed by poor officiating. To me it was a pretty evenly played game.

 

[eco's bones]

Build it the right way. Before it becomes a winning culture, it has to be a working hard culture. We're seeing that they're sticking up for each other.

Were seeing gradual improvements. I thought they defended well mostly last game, they had the player system working aside from their breakdowns and bad line changes.

Quinn needs to keep things positive in there.

They do have guys who know what it's like to play for very good teams. These guys are there to nurture these younger guys along---so there are still remnants of that winning culture still around. The problem with tanking for the sake of it is you throw all that out the window. Whatever vets you have stop believing in anything and the younger guys are left floundering. You have to have leadership and you have to set goals and work for them and even if you don't reach those goals you fight for them.

 

[will1066]

As reviled as he is now, Staal is one of those guys, to be honest. What he doesn't have physically anymore, he can still help in non-playing ways. He's still a leader. That's what I hope for sure, at least, because he is now an albatross on the ice. But in no way was he ever a slacker or lazy. He got his sweetheart deal, guaranteed money, and from his standpoint, I don't blame him for sticking around for as long as possible.

It's also going to take more than five real-competition games to reboot the AV-era players. All of them are undergoing the next closest thing to being actually traded to a new team.

It's a fine line for Quinn to walk between redoing the culture yet incorporate the AV-era leaders, most of which are the current leadership.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

It looks like Hank and Staal are handling the media so I see why they wont bench him and really I think we are too focused on him and are noticing every little thing negative he does without seeing the positives. I'm not sure why but we always seem to have a whipping boy in this fanbase. Right now its Staal, last was Girardi, keep going down the line. This is a nothing year, a year about learning to play the right way and helping the kids become pros by either mentoring them or having them play another year in Hartfors. Staal playing actually helps all that.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

Alright. I'll explain: Yes, I want the Rangers to get a high draft pick. Does that mean I root for them to lose? No.

However, if we lose I don't really feel a bad as I usually would. I also look for positives in a loss. I look at what our young guys are doing. Howden's goals, Chytil's rushes up the ice. That's what I look for during a rebuild

This is where we should all be.

Going to so many Sabres games, their fans live, actually rooted and cheered for losses. That's toxic. Gotta cheer for the win but if they lose get that it isn't a contending year and the objective is to start building... and one way is through higher and plenty picks

 

[eco's bones]

As reviled as he is now, Staal is one of those guys, to be honest. What he doesn't have physically anymore, he can still help in non-playing ways. He's still a leader. That's what I hope for sure, at least, because he is now an albatross on the ice. But in no way was he ever a slacker or lazy. He got his sweetheart deal, guaranteed money, and from his standpoint, I don't blame him for sticking around for as long as possible.

It's also going to take more than five real-competition games to reboot the AV-era players. All of them are undergoing the next closest thing to being actually traded to a new team.

It's a fine line for Quinn to walk between redoing the culture yet incorporate the AV-era leaders, most of which are the current leadership.

.....and Quinn is still figuring out his team. I don't know if he's going to be able to hold the Zibanejad-Fast-Kreider line together but they are all vets and that is a good line. I like Fast there more than Buchnevich. Fast can keep up--he's involved in the offense and he gives the line a defensive conscience---though Zbad is good defensively and Kreider is okay. The last couple games Namestnikov's been a lot better. Howden's been good. To me the rest of the forward group have been a bit underwhelming.

I don't have an issue with any of the defensemen right now and I think you're absolutely correct on Staal. Right now he's a gamer for us. IMO though after this season I'd be buying his contract out. For me it's not an unlikeable group. Shattenkirk needs to get his game together though.

Henrik's been great.

 

[will1066]

.....and Quinn is still figuring out his team. I don't know if he's going to be able to hold the Zibanejad-Fast-Kreider line together but they are all vets and that is a good line. I like Fast there more than Buchnevich. Fast can keep up--he's involved in the offense and he gives the line a defensive conscience---though Zbad is good defensively and Kreider is okay. The last couple games Namestnikov's been a lot better. Howden's been good. To me the rest of the forward group have been a bit underwhelming.

I don't have an issue with any of the defensemen right now and I think you're absolutely correct on Staal. Right now he's a gamer for us. IMO though after this season I'd be buying his contract out. For me it's not an unlikeable group. Shattenkirk needs to get his game together though.

Henrik's been great.

If Quinn thinks in 5-game increments, then think about reuniting KZB and see if they can get going this time. They haven't done anything particularly special separately outside of the occasional great play, and in each of the first five games, there hasn't been more than one line going. Howden-Zucc-Fast. He is reliable enough that he can be moved around.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Not to knock anyone here and I'm sure the intentions are in the right place but personally, I don't feel it's right for ANYONE to tell someone else how to feel.
We're all a heavily invested in this team and you're entitled to feel however you want.
People aren't all wired the same exact way and some are just more passionate while others just act like they're watching paint dry.
There is not a single thing wrong with that and don't ever let anyone else tell you differently.
To each his own

That's a nice sentiment that I agree with to a degree. In ANY walk of life there are limits to how much people will tolerate when an individual behaves ridiculously

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I get that, but we're still trusting the same people who couldn't build it to begin with to rebuild it.

To say they've never succeeded in bringing in elite talent is "just because they never did a full rebuild before" is a huge cop-out.

It's been almost two decades. If we were capable of identifying elite talent, we would have drafted some of it by now.

How many/which teams drafted elite talent in the last twenty years and how many did it more than once?

I disagree with the premise too. It's wrong to only consider drafted elite talent. We've had jagr, gaborik, nash, hank, and to shorter extents mcd and stepan all be elite here. So this organization has consistently found elite talent, added it to the team and found significant success as a result. We've never gone this route (tons of picks or any top picks) to try and acquire elite talent so I have zero reason to suspect that we'll fail other than if I consider the luck of drafting

Not to mention with our highest pick in a long, long time, they took a guy with almost no chance of being an elite player.

That's not to say Andersson isn't a good prospect, but it sort of renders the "they just haven't drafted high enough" excuse irrelevant.

No it doesn't. Not even remotely.

 

[Webster]

When is Buchnevich going to break through as a top player? According to Brooks he still struggles and was benched again..

On Thursday, Quinn had the left-handed Buchnevich on the left side for the first time in his career. The coach thought moving No. 89 off his backhand side would open new horizons for him. But the winger either forgot where he was supposed to be or he does not know right from left, for he was forever wandering and bumping into right winger Fast. Friday, Buchnevich pronounced the experiment over.

Saturday, on the right with Brett Howden in the middle and Mats Zuccarello on the left, Buchnevich was no factor either at even-strength or on a weak power play that went 0-for-2 against the Oilers and is 1-for-12 overall. Buchnevich did not have so much as a shot attempt throughout his 11:22. No one even has former coach Alain Vigneault to kick around anymore.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

They do have guys who know what it's like to play for very good teams. These guys are there to nurture these younger guys along---so there are still remnants of that winning culture still around. The problem with tanking for the sake of it is you throw all that out the window. Whatever vets you have stop believing in anything and the younger guys are left floundering. You have to have leadership and you have to set goals and work for them and even if you don't reach those goals you fight for them.

I want the team to win, but frankly, if they lose, I'm completely fine with it.

Regardless, whining about the refs, whether the team is cup contenders or not, is a waste of breath. And excusing this teams current ability as relative to calls they aren't getting is absurd.

The team is not good and it's not the refs fault.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

When is Buchnevich going to break through as a top player? According to Brooks he still struggles and was benched again..

He's only 23. It might take a year or two still

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Just glancing at the standings, does anyone think this team is worse than Montreal or Ottawa, at least on paper? I don't, the Rangers could easily be sitting with them in the standings right now if they converted on an extra chance or two, or didn't get some horrific officiating. I think it is a pipe dream for the Rangers to keep losing like this all season. I'll be shocked if they finish lower than all 3 of MTL, DET, and OTT. Henrik is going to have more games against good teams like he did vs the Sharks. Goals will go in that aren't now, officiating won't blow forever.

I hope I'm wrong and they sink like a rock, but they haven't looked like a team that absolutely stinks as some of the other tankers in the recent past have.

If anything, Montreal looks like the team that "could surprise" that some swore the Rangers would be.

We may not be Detroit, Ottawa bad but we aren't far off. This defense sucks and the offense is going to struggle to score the entire year. This shouldn't come as a surprise, they struggled last year with a deeper roster under AV, who for all his faults almost always had this team scoring at will.

Henrik is also not going to sport a .950ish Sv percentage for the entire season. Once an injury or two hit the offense, this team is going to sink.

People need to stop complaining about the officiating. If a bad call is the difference between losing and not losing a game to Edmonton, then you didn't deserve to win anyway.

 

[Webster]

He's only 23. It might take a year or two still

Well you have a lot of patience..

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Well you have a lot of patience..

It took your boy Zuccarello until he was 26 to hit 50 points in the NHL. When he was 23, he wasn't even an NHL regular.

Out of all the people here, I expected you to understand the context of Buch being just 23 years old, but I guess I was wrong

 

[Tob]

So you can have a huddle and call a penalty you didn't see. That would've been nice for McQuaid in the Nashville game. These refs are all in cahoots to advance the interest of the league.

 

[Webster]

It took your boy Zuccarello until he was 26 to hit 50 points in the NHL. When he was 23, he wasn't even an NHL regular.

Out of all the people here, I expected you to understand the context of Buch being just 23 years old, but I guess I was wrong

Point is Buch doesn't show any improvement from last year, when he was benched a lot under AV. And this seems to continue with Quinn.

Brooks is calling him out, and I have to agree.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I've been around long enough to pick up on most secrets surrounding this team and I can sit here and give you a million reasons why I don't think this current management group isn't capable to pull this rebuild off successfully but I don't want to derail the thread any further.
If you look at my post history it will be more than obvious so without getting into it to much, I will say that this rebuild isn't taking place just because "it was time", it's taking place because JG's master plan completely backfired in his face.
He made all the wrong moves and had no choice but to abandoned ship..

Why aren't you considering that they had the option to try and maintain a contender while still allowing themselves to easily extricate themselves from a failing situation? They did exactly that, using pieces of that contender to kick start the rebuild. This is a positive and yet you frame it as a negative.

The priorities have changed by has the ability to draft changed? I don't see why it would.

This is bar-none the worst team in the NHL at drafting high-end talent over the course of 20 years. And you're sitting there telling me they'll draft a championship core.

I strongly suspect that the method you used to reach this conclusion is fundamentally flawed to a massive degree. I also suspect your definition of high end talent is flawed and I think it's wrong to ignore trades talent that becomes high end as well. The goal is to build a winner that contends for the cup, not find a gem at pick 26.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Misread that. Still, stumbling upon a generational goalie in round seven. Lots of luck there. Yeah, good pick, but they've shown a total inability to do that at any other position. Goaltenders are a different breed.

The only reflection that matters is the Stanley Cup. I used to not think that, but then I had to watch Washington win one. To me, that made 2012-2015 pretty meaningless, having to see our biggest rival from those years get it done. Yes, some of those teams lucked into high picks, you're right. Especially Pittsburgh. That doesn't change the fact that probably half of the elite players in the NHL were taken outside of the top 5, nor does it excuse the Rangers from being inept at the draft. This team is inept at identifying elite talent at the draft. I'm not sure how you even argue that point.

They haven't drafted 60-point forward since Tony Amonte. Tony Amonte was alive during the Civil War.

I see you considered luck when it helps dismiss a counter point. But you are completely ignoring its role when doing so allows you to bolster your own point. The luck of a top 5 pick compared to a bottom 5 is a MASSIVE cause of the rangers "Failing" to draft " elite" or "high end" talent.

Dammit I meant to copy and paste this to my other post but I didn't. Being on the phone makes it annoying