2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[blackjackmulligan]

Flyers are currently rebuilding

that is a matter of opinion.

 

[Beef Invictus]

you sure about that? not one career? It isn't a myth as a player can def not reach his potential or what not if he isn't ready. It happens.


ruined lol. Maybe just isn't that good. Why can't you acknowledge that in any way? Not even a possibility in your eyes. This ruined nonsense is just that nonsense. If he was any good he would be able to turn his career around and be a top 6 dman after playing for 2 top organizations after the flyers. NAk rules

List the players ruined by being allowed to play in the NHL "too early"

 

[Curufinwe]

They corrected NAK yet didn't want to bring him back for a paltry 1 million. The lasted 2 weeks in Toronto. Love NAK. So the flyers development ruined NAK and Myers. Always makes my day when there is a NAK mention. Or Ghost.

Meanwhile, NAK has a Stanley Cup ring, a $1,225,000 NHL contract, and doesn't think about you at all.

 

[VladDrag]

heres an interesting chart, Seeler and York both show up as 1st pair quality but other Deangelo theres no outliers in the flyers roster in either direction, risto being 3rd pairing quality isnt surprising but York being where he is positive

provorov is almost an outlier, I didnt see him or zamula at first

It's not actually showing 1st pair quality, and in the comments of that thread Micah kind of eludes to that.

What this is showing you is that these players performed the best in their given roles. Now, most of the guys at the top end at the best of the best, but there's a lot of guys in the middle of that top pairing area that are clearly not real top pairing players.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Meanwhile, NAK has a Stanley Cup ring, a $1,225,000 NHL contract, and doesn't think about you at all.

that's great, why would he think of me? very odd thing to say.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

List the players ruined by being allowed to play in the NHL "too early"

nah no point. They exist. Numerous players out their who were rushed and didn't live up to their potential. Kerry huffman alexander daigle gilbert brule chris wells . But hey you said it so it is a fact.

 

[Curufinwe]

What's odd here is your obsession with denigrating a player who's been an effective 4th liner in Philly and on better teams in the league, while the sad sack Flyers have resorted to using trash like Deslauriers, MacEwen and Bellows.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It's not actually showing 1st pair quality, and in the comments of that thread Micah kind of eludes to that.

What this is showing you is that these players performed the best in their given roles. Now, most of the guys at the top end at the best of the best, but there's a lot of guys in the middle of that top pairing area that are clearly not real top pairing players.

Yep. This.

You could build an entire NHL executive career out of knowing which sheltered Defensemen can translate up to the top pair and which can't. That's how valuable and difficult it is.

Think of it in relation to Vince Dunn. When he was super sheltered and putting upgreat underlying numbers, the reasonable people weren't saying he was a top pair guy. They were saying that he had earned a chance to show he could be more, smol or not.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

What's odd here is your obsession with denigrating a player who's been an effective 4th liner in Philly and on better teams in the league, while the sad sack Flyers have resorted to using trash like Deslauriers, MacEwen and Bellows.

You telling anyone they have an obsession is funny the way you felate over Sanheim and Frost. while "denigrating" Cates and the Ivan

 

[tnfrs]

It's not actually showing 1st pair quality, and in the comments of that thread Micah kind of eludes to that.

What this is showing you is that these players performed the best in their given roles. Now, most of the guys at the top end at the best of the best, but there's a lot of guys in the middle of that top pairing area that are clearly not real top pairing players.

i didnt say they were top pair quality and this is proof, I said they show up here on this chart that way. good on you for reading through the comments though and adding additional insight here for people who dont, thats why I posted it here so thanks for that

 

[DancingPanther]

There's a massive difference between working out flaws and developing a player, and what the Flyers do. Which is the opposite of development.

"[Lyksell] wants to play a possession game and turn back with the puck at times. It was a habit that he had to break" - Flahr

 

[deadhead]

"[Lyksell] wants to play a possession game and turn back with the puck at times. It was a habit that he had to break" - Flahr

Having watched Lycksell, he's not exactly McDavid.
You can call this "suppressing offense" if you want, I call it a "reality check."
Against NHL defenders, a player like Lycksell will soon be stripped of the puck if he gets too cute.

 

[BernieParent]

Having watched Lycksell, he's not exactly McDavid.
You can call this "suppressing offense" if you want, I call it a "reality check."
Against NHL defenders, a player like Lycksell will soon be stripped of the puck if he gets too cute.

"Is anyone here Connor McDavid? No? Okay, then you will all push the puck straight ahead with your stick and if you see a defender closing on you, you are to dump the puck forward. Always forward."

Seriously, these extreme comparisons to make an overgeneralization are tiresome, dead. Like you have posted before, hockey is a fluid game that precludes an overemphasis on set plays and each player should have a sufficiently high IQ to adapt on the fly. If Lycksell (or any other player) shows he cannot consistently make the right choice with the puck after a decent sample size of games, he can be sent down. But hobbling players to such binary directives is likely a key reason why this team is so dreadful at OZ entries.

 

[deadhead]

"Is anyone here Connor McDavid? No? Okay, then you will all push the puck straight ahead with your stick and if you see a defender closing on you, you are to dump the puck forward. Always forward."

Seriously, these extreme comparisons to make an overgeneralization are tiresome, dead. Like you have posted before, hockey is a fluid game that precludes an overemphasis on set plays and each player should have a sufficiently high IQ to adapt on the fly. If Lycksell (or any other player) shows he cannot consistently make the right choice with the puck after a decent sample size of games, he can be sent down. But hobbling players to such binary directives is likely a key reason why this team is so dreadful at OZ entries.

The NHL’s most dynamic forwards: Ranking the best (and worst) forwards at zone entries and rush offense

Which forwards are the most dominant at transporting the puck?

theathletic.com

Notice this is before Torts became HC, no Flyers in the top 50.

Yes, a clean entry is better than dump and chase, but you need the players who excel at that skill. Flyers don't have them.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Sure looks like systemic incompetence to me.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The NHL’s most dynamic forwards: Ranking the best (and worst) forwards at zone entries and rush offense

Which forwards are the most dominant at transporting the puck?

theathletic.com

Notice this is before Torts became HC, no Flyers in the top 50.

Yes, a clean entry is better than dump and chase, but you need the players who excel at that skill. Flyers don't have them.

They don’t have many because it was clearly de-emphasized as a skill under the previous GM. Even when they had them, they largely didn’t take weaponize them well.

The only +EV entry guy they added under Fletcher is the one they ended up buying out due to a feud with the coach.

 

[Beef Invictus]

"[Lyksell] wants to play a possession game and turn back with the puck at times. It was a habit that he had to break" - Flahr

Yeah see prospects are going to be better off not being "developed."

 

[deadhead]

Hayes, Couts and Voracek were their top three, all big bodies that entered using their body to shield the puck.
Ghost before his injuries slowed him down.

That's about it, what they lack(ed) are players with both speed and lateral agility and puck control who can enter with their head up and make a quick pass - Hayes and Voracek were notorious for skating around with the puck instead of passing, same with Sanheim.

Chicken and egg question, do they dump b/c they lack the talent for clean entries, or do they lack the talent due to overemphasizing dumping the puck.

I think it's the former, can't imagine there's a HC who'd tell a player to dump the puck if he can enter cleanly, dumping is what you advise a player to do if their entry is blocked instead of being stripped at the blue line, flipping the ice.

TK is a good example, he dumps a lot b/c he lacks the shake and bake to evade a defender at the blue line - both he and Tippett enter cleanly when their speed allows them to get to the blue line before a defender is in position to contest the entry.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

They don’t have many because it was clearly de-emphasized as a skill under the previous GM. Even when they had them, they largely didn’t take weaponize them well.

The only +EV entry guy they added under Fletcher is the one they ended up buying out due to a feud with the coach.

Sounds like mistakes were made & wrong things were prioritized &/or straight up ignored.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Jake Voracek was notorious for not passing.

I have been slain.

 

[Cody Webster]

Jake Voracek was notorious for not passing.

I have been slain.

Guy really hated passing the puck I tell ya

 

[deadhead]

Jake Voracek was notorious for not passing.

I have been slain.

Not off his entries, his MO was to skate around the offensive zone, hope the defenders would get out of position, then hit someone with a pass (b/c he couldn't shot to save his life the second half of his career, which was a bit odd given he was ok the first half). Jake was a better passer on the PP I think b/c he could stand there, survey the ice, then when a pass came to him he had identified his target and made quick, accurate passes.

 

[Curufinwe]

Not off his entries, his MO was to skate around the offensive zone, hope the defenders would get out of position, then hit someone with a pass (b/c he couldn't shot to save his life the second half of his career, which was a bit odd given he was ok the first half). Jake was a better passer on the PP I think b/c he could stand there, survey the ice, then when a pass came to him he had identified his target and made quick, accurate passes.

You will not find a worse talent evaluator on the entirety of HFB.

Clumsy old Jake Voracek averaged 1.35 5on5 assists per 60 minutes in his ten seasons with the Flyers. 28th best in the entire NHL out of players with at least 100 GP. Better than Scheifele, Backstrom, Datsyuk, St Louis, Wheeler, Giroux etc.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[kudymen]

Jake Voracek was notorious for not passing.

I have been slain.

The guy many often shouted WHY DID HE PASS NOW during the PPs...? Yeah, reality czechs (hahaha!) out

 

[Curufinwe]

You have to laugh at the early onset dementia evident in people who used to blame Voracek when the PP struggled during his time here, now that the Flyers PP has been ranked dead least in the two years since he was traded.