2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[Hollywood Cannon]

Anyone else surprised it's Pick #51 for JOB and not the last pick of the 2nd round?

I wonder how that worked?

It's the pick number that he was taken in the 1st round but in the 2nd.

 

[Curufinwe]

32 + 19

 

[deadhead]

heres an interesting chart, Seeler and York both show up as 1st pair quality but other Deangelo theres no outliers in the flyers roster in either direction, risto being 3rd pairing quality isnt surprising but York being where he is positive

provorov is almost an outlier, I didnt see him or zamula at first

Sanheim and Provorov are both below 3rd pair, that is, below TDA and Risto.
Still believe in these metrics?

Problem is role matters, Seeler has good metrics b/c he was sheltered in a 3rd pair role, he excelled in that role, but move him up into the top 4 and I'd expect him to look much worse. However, Risto may be better than people think, though there's still room for improvement.

Flyers got a great return for Provorov, Walker should be able to match or exceed his play, though he won't play 23-25 minutes a night.
Provorov will play better, but it's hard to imagine at this point he'll ever be better than 2nd pair, same with Sanheim.

 

[Adam Warlock]

The idea of guys like Attard, Zamula, Brink, and Foerster having to "earn" a spot in camp on a rebuilding team is laughable. Theyve all gotton enough time in the AHL...its time to see what they can do.

Clown franchise with its dinosaur philosophy.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Sanheim and Provorov are both below 3rd pair, that is, below TDA and Risto.
Still believe in these metrics?

Problem is role matters, Seeler has good metrics b/c he was sheltered in a 3rd pair role, he excelled in that role, but move him up into the top 4 and I'd expect him to look much worse. However, Risto may be better than people think, though there's still room for improvement.

Flyers got a great return for Provorov, Walker should be able to match or exceed his play, though he won't play 23-25 minutes a night.
Provorov will play better, but it's hard to imagine at this point he'll ever be better than 2nd pair, same with Sanheim.

or maybe there is not. At what point do you accept a player being what they are?

Walker never played anywhere close to 23 in his career.

 

[tnfrs]

Sanheim and Provorov are both below 3rd pair, that is, below TDA and Risto.
Still believe in these metrics?

Problem is role matters, Seeler has good metrics b/c he was sheltered in a 3rd pair role, he excelled in that role, but move him up into the top 4 and I'd expect him to look much worse. However, Risto may be better than people think, though there's still room for improvement.

Flyers got a great return for Provorov, Walker should be able to match or exceed his play, though he won't play 23-25 minutes a night.
Provorov will play better, but it's hard to imagine at this point he'll ever be better than 2nd pair, same with Sanheim.

TDA is only on that side because of his offense take that away and he's firmly in the bad quarter. its just a general snap shot but it kind of confirms how Ive always felt about sanheim which is not a 1st pairing guy, whether or not Provy turns it around only matters to blue jackets fans now. The only hope now is that Sanheim improves with different partners this year and then stays consistent for at least a few years and maybe his contract looks better down the road.

 

[deadhead]

Provorov and Sanheim were so bad last year it won't be hard to improve on their performances.
Hopefully, Sanheim will rebound, and I expect Provorov to be better in a 2nd pair role where he's not asked to do as much.
But I can't see where the Flyer defense will be worse this season with York - Walker and Sanheim - Risto.

 

[Curufinwe]

Provorov and Sanheim were so bad last year it won't be hard to improve on their performances.

Yeah, remember last season when Provorov and Sanheim had the same level of defensive performance. Kind of like how Cates and Frost were equally good offensively at 5on5.

Flyers defensemen - 5on5 GA/60

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

1. Sanheim - 2.16
2. Braun - 2.24
3. York - 2.53
4. Seeler - 2.56
5. Ristolainen- 2.61
6. DeAngelo - 2.92
7. Provorov - 3.02

 

[Curufinwe]

Walker never played anywhere close to 23 in his career.

No one in the world is talking about Walker as a top pairing guy outside of deadhead's fantastical imagination. Walker averaged under 15 minutes a game last season, and only 13:10 at 5on5, which was 7th out of 7 on LA's defense.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[renberg]

I don’t get why some fans think that TC makes a difference in who plays in Philly and who goes down to LHV. Barring an injury, DB knows who is going to go where now. So do most fans. TC and the games/scrimmages are there to get the players into shape. I’m not getting any hope up for a breakthrough where the young guys, aside from Foerster and Ersson make the cut. Maybe Z sticks as an eighth defenseman since he’s out of options but more likely he’ll go on IR for “more time to heal”. I’ve come to expect Andrae to go back to Sweden for his season and return when it’s over in the spring. Hathaway, Stoll and Poehling weren’t signed to ride the bench.

 

[Curufinwe]

I don’t get why some fans think that TC makes a difference in who plays in Philly and who goes down to LHV. Barring an injury, DB knows who is going to go where now. So do most fans. TC and the games/scrimmages are there to get the players into shape. I’m not getting any hope up for a breakthrough where the young guys, aside from Foerster and Ersson make the cut. Maybe Z sticks as an eighth defenseman since he’s out of options but more likely he’ll go on IR for “more time to heal”. I’ve come to expect Andrae to go back to Sweden for his season and return when it’s over in the spring. Hathaway, Stoll and Poehling weren’t signed to ride the bench.

They will just waive Deslauriers and Seeler if the kids outplay them.

 

[deadhead]

I don’t get why some fans think that TC makes a difference in who plays in Philly and who goes down to LHV. Barring an injury, DB knows who is going to go where now. So do most fans. TC and the games/scrimmages are there to get the players into shape. I’m not getting any hope up for a breakthrough where the young guys, aside from Foerster and Ersson make the cut. Maybe Z sticks as an eighth defenseman since he’s out of options but more likely he’ll go on IR for “more time to heal”. I’ve come to expect Andrae to go back to Sweden for his season and return when it’s over in the spring. Hathaway, Stoll and Poehling weren’t signed to ride the bench.

Let's be honest, outside of Foerster, who is a lock, and Andrae, who will start this season or next season, all those "young prospects" are 2nd and later round picks who'd have to surprise to win a job, other than Zamula, who is out of options and is well liked by Torts.

Brink - coming off hip surgery, did not look NHL ready last spring, so they'll err on the side of conservatism in camp
Desnoyers - had a nice rookie AHL season (23 goals), is a solid two way player, but needed to add strength for his role as an "energy guy."
Lycksell - scored a lot in the AHL, but watching him, also went AWOL for stretches, didn't show much in his NHL cameo, needs to take it up a notch
Attard - improved as the season progresses, has the body and offensive chops to play in the NHL, just has to show he's not going to be a black hole defensively
Ginning - looked like a solid 3rd pair defensive defenseman, I expect him to return to LHV and get called up after the TDL trades.
Grans - flatlined last season after a good start to his pro career, they'll probably send him to LHV and see what they got

None of these six are sure NHL starters, but all will have a shot in training camp to convince the PTB that they're worthy of a shot.
And none will be hurt if they start the season at LHV, Attard is the only one aging out, but he was a late starter so another few months wouldn't be the end of the world for him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Someone is bookmarking all this, right?

The funniest part is claiming Zamula is "well liked" after he sat on the bench with ample opportunity to be used. Revolving door!

 

[renberg]

Let's be honest, outside of Foerster, who is a lock, and Andrae, who will start this season or next season, all those "young prospects" are 2nd and later round picks who'd have to surprise to win a job, other than Zamula, who is out of options and is well liked by Torts.

Brink - coming off hip surgery, did not look NHL ready last spring, so they'll err on the side of conservatism in camp
Desnoyers - had a nice rookie AHL season (23 goals), is a solid two way player, but needed to add strength for his role as an "energy guy."
Lycksell - scored a lot in the AHL, but watching him, also went AWOL for stretches, didn't show much in his NHL cameo, needs to take it up a notch
Attard - improved as the season progresses, has the body and offensive chops to play in the NHL, just has to show he's not going to be a black hole defensively
Ginning - looked like a solid 3rd pair defensive defenseman, I expect him to return to LHV and get called up after the TDL trades.
Grans - flatlined last season after a good start to his pro career, they'll probably send him to LHV and see what they got

None of these six are sure NHL starters, but all will have a shot in training camp to convince the PTB that they're worthy of a shot.
And none will be hurt if they start the season at LHV, Attard is the only one aging out, but he was a late starter so another few months wouldn't be the end of the world for him.

How much difference in play is Seeler and Staal going to give you over Andrae or Ginning and Attard? The young guys need to play in order to see if they can or not. I don’t buy that one has to wait until a guy is 28 in order to be ready to play D in today’s NHL. Deslauriers versus Brink or Desnoyers? I’ll take the younger guys. If it’s a rebuild, then rebuild.

 

[Cody Webster]

Someone is bookmarking all this, right?

The funniest part is claiming Zamula is "well liked" after he sat on the bench with ample opportunity to be used. Revolving door!

The narrative is already changing...Just yesterday we were told Andrae will start the season with the Flyers, and now today it's this season or next season

 

[blackjackmulligan]

No one in the world is talking about Walker as a top pairing guy outside of deadhead's fantastical imagination. Walker averaged under 15 minutes a game last season, and only 13:10 at 5on5, which was 7th out of 7 on LA's defense.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Now it really isn't that out line to think he may however on this team at some point. We have seen how bad that D looks. Walker you hope is a little better now a year under his belt after surgery. 18-20 is or more is feasible on this team.

Let's be honest, outside of Foerster, who is a lock, and Andrae, who will start this season or next season, all those "young prospects" are 2nd and later round picks who'd have to surprise to win a job, other than Zamula, who is out of options and is well liked by Torts.

Brink - coming off hip surgery, did not look NHL ready last spring, so they'll err on the side of conservatism in camp
Desnoyers - had a nice rookie AHL season (23 goals), is a solid two way player, but needed to add strength for his role as an "energy guy."
Lycksell - scored a lot in the AHL, but watching him, also went AWOL for stretches, didn't show much in his NHL cameo, needs to take it up a notch
Attard - improved as the season progresses, has the body and offensive chops to play in the NHL, just has to show he's not going to be a black hole defensively
Ginning - looked like a solid 3rd pair defensive defenseman, I expect him to return to LHV and get called up after the TDL trades.
Grans - flatlined last season after a good start to his pro career, they'll probably send him to LHV and see what they got

None of these six are sure NHL starters, but all will have a shot in training camp to convince the PTB that they're worthy of a shot.
And none will be hurt if they start the season at LHV, Attard is the only one aging out, but he was a late starter so another few months wouldn't be the end of the world for him.

Where you getting this from? Just a hunch?

 

[bennysflyers16]

Someone is bookmarking all this, right?

The funniest part is claiming Zamula is "well liked" after he sat on the bench with ample opportunity to be used. Revolving door!

What would be the point of a bookmark LOL

 

[renberg]

The narrative is already changing...Just yesterday we were told Andrae will start the season with the Flyers, and now today it's this season or next season

This is the BS that a poorly run organization hands out. If the kid can play, play him. Sure he’ll make mistakes but under proper coaching, he’ll improve. Shaw got Risto to improve, why can’t he school along Andrae, Z or Attard? We all know the lines that are coming: “Andrae isn’t quite there yet and he has that contract in Sweden.”; “Attard needs to work more on his defensive game.”; “Zamula needs more time to recover from his injuries and do more work with the weights.”
We’ve seen this play before. If this coach and staff can’t grow young players, they’re the ones that have to go since the veterans are not carrying this club anywhere for long.

 

[deadhead]

Seeler is significantly better than the kids right now, and he is a good partner for a kid, raised the game of both Risto and TDA last season.
Staal is a warm body, I think he'll be like Braun last season, may start initially, but will gradually be phased out as the season progresses.
They want Zamula to win a job to start the season, it's his to lose.
Attard also has a shot, given they only have two RHDs.

Desnoyers is a tougher nut, Poehling is 24 at 4C, and I don't know if they'd even consider him at 3LW. They might prefer he spend another year in the AHL, meanwhile they test drive Poehling, and move a forward or two at the TDL.

With TK, Atkinson and Foerster, there really isn't a spot for Brink, and he's still in the prove it stage after last season. So they might prefer he start at LHV, keeping their options open - if he shows he's the same player who lead the NCAA in scoring at 20, they'll find a spot for him.

There is no rush, Gauthier doesn't arrive until next season, Bonk 2024 or 2025, same with the (2) 1st rd picks, and Michkov in 2026.
So they have no urgency to rush second tier prospects. The team will be in a holding pattern for a couple seasons.

 

[tnfrs]

I dont think the org is in a rush to have this current crop of prospects play in the NHL, if theyre really going to rebuild they have to start with the development, especially if we're going to try to uncover late round talent that needs extra work. if we're going to be picking 8 to 10 players every draft there needs to be players at every level who can play with them, guys like Brink and Desnoyers may just be good AHL guys like Bellows. Foerster blew every one away with the 8 games he got and thats what the flyers are going to be looking for people to do right now. If you're not good enough to outplay Seeler or Poehling you need more time and experience, sports has only and ever will be a meritocracy and theres still 20 guys that are trying to win every night so theyre not going to want guys who clearly arent ready. If anybody comes into camp and preseason and plays like Foerster did in his games last year they will make room on the roster, its harder with Andrae because the defense is pretty full but if hes THAT good theyll make room, and if hes not that good yet another season in Sweden wont hurt him. Rushing prospects into the lineup is a good way to tank but its also a good way to tank every ones value making up for someone else's deficiencies

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Seeler is significantly better than the kids right now, and he is a good partner for a kid, raised the game of both Risto and TDA last season.
Staal is a warm body, I think he'll be like Braun last season, may start initially, but will gradually be phased out as the season progresses.
They want Zamula to win a job to start the season, it's his to lose.
Attard also has a shot, given they only have two RHDs.

Desnoyers is a tougher nut, Poehling is 24 at 4C, and I don't know if they'd even consider him at 3LW. They might prefer he spend another year in the AHL, meanwhile they test drive Poehling, and move a forward or two at the TDL.

With TK, Atkinson and Foerster, there really isn't a spot for Brink, and he's still in the prove it stage after last season. So they might prefer he start at LHV, keeping their options open - if he shows he's the same player who lead the NCAA in scoring at 20, they'll find a spot for him.

There is no rush, Gauthier doesn't arrive until next season, Bonk 2024 or 2025, same with the (2) 1st rd picks, and Michkov in 2026.
So they have no urgency to rush second tier prospects. The team will be in a holding pattern for a couple seasons.

It is not about how Seeler has played, he has earned it 100%. It is about where the flyers are at. He should have been moved then sign another vet to be the 7th. Seeler will not be the 7th.

The math says otherwise for Zamula. I really cant understand seeing and knowing how the flyers operate you feel differently. Not buying any ne regime talk. Not yet anyway.

No issue with Desnoyers or Brink in the AHL to start. I just do not see a path to get to the NHL this season unless injuries. I do not think they will find a spot if he plays well in LHV

 

[renberg]

I dont think the org is in a rush to have this current crop of prospects play in the NHL, if theyre really going to rebuild they have to start with the development, especially if we're going to try to uncover late round talent that needs extra work. if we're going to be picking 8 to 10 players every draft there needs to be players at every level who can play with them, guys like Brink and Desnoyers may just be good AHL guys like Bellows. Foerster blew every one away with the 8 games he got and thats what the flyers are going to be looking for people to do right now. If you're not good enough to outplay Seeler or Poehling you need more time and experience, sports has only and ever will be a meritocracy and theres still 20 guys that are trying to win every night so theyre not going to want guys who clearly arent ready. If anybody comes into camp and preseason and plays like Foerster did in his games last year they will make room on the roster, its harder with Andrae because the defense is pretty full but if hes THAT good theyll make room, and if hes not that good yet another season in Sweden wont hurt him. Rushing prospects into the lineup is a good way to tank but its also a good way to tank every ones value making up for someone else's deficiencies

However Seeler only looks decent on a third pairing with sheltered minutes. Move him up the roster and he’s lost. Why not try to see if someone else can’t give you more.
How is Andrae playing in Sweden going to make him a better player in a year than him doing a year in the NHL against better competition? Guys improve by going up against better competition in more competitive environments. Not to put down the SHL but the players aren’t as good and the rink size doesn’t create the speed of the game that the smaller NHL ones do.

 

[tnfrs]

However Seeler only looks decent on a third pairing with sheltered minutes. Move him up the roster and he’s lost. Why not try to see if someone else can’t give you more.
How is Andrae playing in Sweden going to make him a better player in a year than him doing a year in the NHL against better competition? Guys improve by going up against better competition in more competitive environments. Not to put down the SHL but the players aren’t as good and the rink size doesn’t create the speed of the game that the smaller NHL ones do.

If Andrae isnt good enough for the NHL going to Sweden is his only option unless they agree to let him play for the Phantoms, if his development stalls against SHL competition then its going to stall in the NHL too. Danny is not beholden to Seeler, he didnt sign him, and hes 30 years old making the league minimum so if Andrae is better than Seeler its not exactly a hard choice to waive him, any team with an analytics department clever enough to see Seeler's value is also clever enough not to pay us for him so Dannys not going to let him get in anybodys way if theyre clearly better. Fletcher didnt leave Danny with a ton of options, and some of these contracts just have to be played out like Walker's, maybe he has value but nobody is lining up to help us rebuild and take him, but if Andrae isnt good enough to outplay Seeler then the competition in the SHL is probably just the right bowl of porridge for him.

 

[renberg]

If Andrae isnt good enough for the NHL going to Sweden is his only option unless they agree to let him play for the Phantoms, if his development stalls against SHL competition then its going to stall in the NHL too. Danny is not beholden to Seeler, he didnt sign him, and hes 30 years old making the league minimum so if Andrae is better than Seeler its not exactly a hard choice to waive him, any team with an analytics department clever enough to see Seeler's value is also clever enough not to pay us for him so Dannys not going to let him get in anybodys way if theyre clearly better. Fletcher didnt leave Danny with a ton of options, and some of these contracts just have to be played out like Walker's, maybe he has value but nobody is lining up to help us rebuild and take him, but if Andrae isnt good enough to outplay Seeler then the competition in the SHL is probably just the right bowl of porridge for him.

It’s about development not just immediate talent. Seeler isn’t going to get any better. Andrae can

 

[deadhead]

Now it really isn't that out line to think he may however on this team at some point. We have seen how bad that D looks. Walker you hope is a little better now a year under his belt after surgery. 18-20 is or more is feasible on this team.


Where you getting this from? Just a hunch?

Tortorella impressed by Zamula, Foerster in Flyers' win

John Tortorella discussed the promising performances from Flyers prospects Egor Zamula and Tyson Foerster.

www.nbcsportsphiladelphia.com

Egor Zamula​

“He’s long, takes up a lot of space. The thing caught our eye was his ability to see the ice. It looks like he has the ability to make a play. I thought — before we sent him back down — I thought it was a struggle for him at the speed of what the game was being played here.” — March 20

“I thought Z — I’m not sure how his assists come about — but just watching his game, I thought he had some really good puck poise.” — March 21

“He sees the ice, but he’s got to move the puck quicker. I think that’s part of his progression, is move the puck quick. You see the play — move it. Move the puck harder, too. Pass it harder. That’s one thing we noticed in his first game back here. He knows it’s there, but he eases the puck over there. Snap it over there and let’s get going.” — March 23

Subjective interpretation: As with York, Tortorella likes Zamula’s tools. His main questions are with regard to Zamula’s pace of play. He’ll be in the mix at camp next September, and remains a player who Tortorella likes.

Ronnie Attard​

“I think he’s raw. I think there’s some work to do. The biggest positives for me? He’s long, he’s right-hand shot, and I like — he makes a decision and goes with it. There’s no in-between with him.”

“There’s something there. He certainly wasn’t out of place. He has a lot to work on, as to be expected at that position. But I thought he equipped himself well.” — April 8

Subjective interpretation: Another prospect who received a late-season recall and impressed Tortorella, but not to the point where he’s penciling Attard into the 2023-24 lineup.

The Tortorella Index: Where do all the Flyers stand entering the offseason?

As the Flyers season ends, here's the read on how Tortorella evaluates every player on the roster.

theathletic.com

Zamula underwent shoulder surgery, though he is expected to recover in time for training camp this fall. And just like he did this season, Tortorella wants to add more youth to the Flyers lineup, especially on the backend.

“I think some kids have progressed nicely there as far as our youth. I think the next spot is defense. I’d like to see some youth come into there and push some people because there’s no locks,” Tortorella said in his end of season media. “Not judged on the overall play of all those players are back there, there’s no locks there. I’m hoping some kids come in here. Certainly not going to be given – I’m certainly not going to disrespect the veteran guys and want to get them out of there. Everybody’s going to have to earn their spot.”

Flyers sign Egor Zamula to one-year extension

John Tortorella wants more youth on the backend this season and he is going to get it as the Flyers have signed Egor Zamula to a one-year extension.

broadstreetbuzz.com