2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Meanwhile, NAK has a Stanley Cup ring, a $1,225,000 NHL contract, and doesn't think about you at all.

This is such a weird statement lol.

I think the point is that if the best example you can come up with of a Flyers prospect thriving elsewhere is NAK, then you're greatly exaggerating the size of the problem.

Nobody is taking personal shots at NAK.

NAK has carved out a nice career. We're all happy for him and all of his accomplishments and we wish him well. Maybe his 4th stop in the last 2 seasons is finally where he catches on long term, but even if he does, it won't have been a major loss.

If you want to look at an actual failure to develop talent, look at Florida w/ Tippett. But would I use that one example to call the entire Florida development process a failure? lol no.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Voracek one of the most underrated Flyers of all time by our fans

I didn't think we would be able to get someone more underrated than Carter, but we traded him for that guy.

 

[captainpaxil]

Patrick maroon is the most successful prospect to leave the system ironically he did it as the kind of player the flyers have historically coveted

 

[tnfrs]

Patrick maroon is the most successful prospect to leave the system ironically he did it as the kind of player the flyers have historically coveted

Patrick Sharp and Justin Williams both won 3 cups and had more successful individual careers based on stats, but Maroon gets the honor of having never actually played a game for the Flyers

 

[captainpaxil]

Patrick Sharp and Justin Williams both won 3 cups and had more successful individual careers based on stats, but Maroon gets the honor of having never actually played a game for the Flyers

They were both individually better players but I wouldn't place either in the untouted category. Maroon was a guy they didn't give a chance to. It would be like if Millman suddenly took off

 

[tnfrs]

They were both individually better players but I wouldn't place either in the untouted category. Maroon was a guy they didn't give a chance to. It would be like if Millman suddenly took off

Maroon also went through like 4 teams before he landed in st louis. anaheim, edmonton, jersey were the others so he didnt exactly take off, he just got stronger and adjusted the NHL and carved out a name for himself doing exactly what Philly drafted him for. I was just pointing out he didnt play any games for the Flyers.

 

[deadhead]

Maroon also had to come to grips with some personal issues.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Maroon, Sharp, Williams... take your pick. Point is, they were all a decade+ ago. The issues that have plagued the Flyers the most under Hextall and Fletcher have been the actual draft selections, the trades, the massive contracts doled out. Not saying player development can't be improved, but you can't get blood out of a stone. Even perfect player development wouldn't have changed the course of this franchise over the last decade.

If we get the draft picks right (as I think we did this year), things get a lot easier.

 

[trostol]

 

[FLYguy3911]

Really glad I backread this thread. Incredible content in here.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Patrick maroon is the most successful prospect to leave the system ironically he did it as the kind of player the flyers have historically coveted

He had to be moved. He was a problem. Was given numerous chances. It was best for both parties. Not going to fault the flyers in his case.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The Williams trade was fine. It was a clear hockey trade. Flyers needed a top 4 dman at the time. Wasn't like they gave up on Williams. You have to give to get. No issue for me on that one.

Sharp at the time was a nothing move. Anyone saying otherwise is pure entertainment. There is no one on these boards who envisioned Sharp turning out to be the player he became. No one. They got a guy back who was somewhat productive on the hawks. It was a young nhl player for young nhl player deal. Just didn't pan out. That deal stings no doubt.

 

[Curufinwe]

This is such a weird statement lol.

I think the point is that if the best example you can come up with of a Flyers prospect thriving elsewhere is NAK, then you're greatly exaggerating the size of the problem.

Nobody is taking personal shots at NAK.

Obviously you weren't around for the years people when claimed NAK was not an NHL player, and that it was good management by Fletcher to callup Bunnaman, Twarynski, Andreoff, Stewart, Vorobyev, Rubtsov, and Kase and before him.

Tippett did fine in Florida. It's not an indictment on them that at age 23/24 he scored 20+ goals on a weak team where he could get top 6/PP1 usage.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sharp at the time was a nothing move. Anyone saying otherwise is pure entertainment. There is no one on these boards who envisioned Sharp turning out to be the player he became. No one. They got a guy back who was somewhat productive on the hawks. It was a young nhl player for young nhl player deal. Just didn't pan out. That deal stings no doubt.

The Sharp trade was a terrible trade that only happened because Hitch was bullying a young prospect, and that was called out at the time.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

He had to be moved. He was a problem. Was given numerous chances. It was best for both parties. Not going to fault the flyers in his case.

Yes and No - Flyers org wasn't exactly faultless. Greg Gilbert got fired as the Phantoms coach only a couple of games after dismissing Maroon from the team. There was a poster here who had info on the team when they were in Adirondack but I can't remember who it was or if they're still even around.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Yes and No - Flyers org wasn't exactly faultless. Greg Gilbert got fired as the Phantoms coach only a couple of games after dismissing Maroon from the team. There was a poster here who had info on the team when they were in Adirondack but I can't remember who it was or if they're still even around.

It goes beyond Gilbert. He was doing things he shouldn't have been doing. He was talked too and sat down. He ignored those talks. All on him.

The Sharp trade was a terrible trade that only happened because Hitch was bullying a young prospect, and that was called out at the time.

bullying lol.

 

[Curufinwe]

No one who matters in the flyers wants to move him (Provorov)

lol

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Obviously you weren't around for the years people when claimed NAK was not an NHL player, and that it was good management by Fletcher to callup Bunnaman, Twarynski, Andreoff, Stewart, Vorobyev, Rubtsov, and Kase and before him.

Tippett did fine in Florida. It's not an indictment on them that at age 23/24 he scored 20+ goals on a weak team where he could get top 6/PP1 usage.

I wasn't. But also, I don't see how that invalidates my statement. Those aren't personal attacks on NAK and if "missing" out on a fourth liner is the worst we've done, seems like player development isn't one of the bigger issues. The issue is that we missed big on all those guys you named with poor drafting.

If "doing fine" includes being sent to the minors then yeah, Tippett was "doing fine" in Florida. I guess it'd be "fine" if we sent Frost to the Phantoms at some point this year too, right? Now of course that ignores that we're at different places as franchises, but still you're being disingenuous if you don't admit Florida selling low on a former top 10 pick and then having him break out in another city is a miss on their part. A much bigger miss I might add than NAK becoming a fourth liner bouncing from team to team.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Has Tippett broken out? Dude is still a 3rd liner on a good team. The possible illusion of a breakout is why they should have been considering selling high on him.

 

[PDX Flyer]

The Sharp trade was a terrible trade that only happened because Hitch was bullying a young prospect, and that was called out at the time.

For me that trade is the shining beacon that the Flyers had no clue about the rule changes being implemented in the “the new nhl”. I thought they would be getting a huge piece back and was like wtf when I found out Ellison was a ahl’r.

Just another Flyers coach running a player out of town

 

[PDX Flyer]

Yes and No - Flyers org wasn't exactly faultless. Greg Gilbert got fired as the Phantoms coach only a couple of games after dismissing Maroon from the team. There was a poster here who had info on the team when they were in Adirondack but I can't remember who it was or if they're still even around.

Maroon exchanged punches with one of the coaching staff from what I remember

I think Maroon just needed to grow up and lose the attitude. I meet a guy from St. Louis who said he grew up with him. The entire family was a bunch of bullies and thought their shit didn’t stink. I think he had to mature and lose the high school jock/bully and be a pro. Good on him for over coming the early adversity and making a solid career

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Has Tippett broken out? Dude is still a 3rd liner on a good team. The possible illusion of a breakout is why they should have been considering selling high on him.

as well as Frost. Did they even try?

 

[Magua]

Reducing the Flyers developmental issues to players not improving going out is about as reductive as it gets. It's definitely a contrarian hill to die on to defend the Flyers' catastrophic player development.

Going through the Flyers development meat grinder and not being able to succeed elsewhere isn't quite the foolproof defense it seems. There's no magic ability to retroactively determine which players were never any good or which players could've been good. Bad coaching and usage scraps can sink a player. Not everyone is too good to fail.

Forget players going out -- many of which were broken in their own ways. How many young players in the last 15-20 years (or whatever timeline you want) came to the Flyers, from juniors or elsewhere, and improved? How many players have met or exceeded their ceilings? It's a short list. Get into a table saw accident, and you should still be able to count with one hand. Even Tippett is a marginal case. He was a toolsy top 10 pick who torched the AHL and only had 1 season of NHL games. Becoming a middle 6 player, with top line usage, at age 23-24 -- is that actually improving or defying ceiling from a skill sense? As I said, it's marginal. Name another player, and you'll prove my point.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Reducing the Flyers developmental issues to players not improving going out is about as reductive as it gets. It's definitely a contrarian hill to die on to defend the Flyers' catastrophic player development.

Going through the Flyers development meat grinder and not being able to succeed elsewhere isn't quite the foolproof defense it seems. There's no magic ability to retroactively determine which players were never any good or which players could've been good. Bad coaching and usage scraps can sink a player. Not everyone is too good to fail.

Forget players going out -- many of which were broken in their own ways. How many young players in the last 15-20 years (or whatever timeline you want) came to the Flyers, from juniors or elsewhere, and improved? How many players have met or exceeded their ceilings? It's a short list. Get into a table saw accident, and you should still be able to count with one hand. Even Tippett is a marginal case. He was a toolsy top 10 pick who torched the AHL and only had 1 season of NHL games. Becoming a middle 6 player, with top line usage, at age 23-24 -- is that actually improving or defying ceiling from a skill sense? As I said, it's marginal. Name another player, and you'll prove my point.

It's very much a chicken or the egg situation. There's no way to "prove" whether a prospect fails because of their talent/mental/work ethic/injuries or because of coaching / lack of opportunity, but I think the vast majority of prospects that ultimately do fail are because of personal issues. I can't really recall the last (or any) Flyers prospect who came to the pro game, looked extremely impressive and then fizzled out (unless injuries were involved).

And if you look around the league, you see plenty of players who never hit their ceiling. It's not a Flyers exclusive thing. In fact, the majority of prospects never come close to their ceiling. Finding the right prospects is tough. And it becomes an even more difficult proposition when you draft the Jay O'Briens and German Rubtsovs and Pascal Laberges of the world.

Is our development process great? No, probably not. Did we miss an opportunity to polish a few turds like NAK up to 4th line players? Yeah, maybe. Is the way we handled Frost last year mildly infuriating? Yes. But the biggest issues with this team are the cap anchor contracts and the lack of top end talent. And it isn't our development or lack thereof that's responsible for that IMO.

 

[captainpaxil]

Patrick laberge and rubstov all had significant injuries now I'm not saying they would have been stars but we'd be having a very different conversation if they'd been healthy