2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Patrick laberge and rubstov all had significant injuries now I'm not saying they would have been stars but we'd be having a very different conversation if they'd been healthy

With Morin and Patrick you'd have a decent argument about significant injuries. But even Patrick, when healthy and playing 70+ games his first 2 years, wasn't showing the type of upside you'd like out of a number 2 pick. To me, that was an example of a flawed / bad draft process. The scouts were clear that Makar was their guy (or were split on Heiskanen / Makar, depending on who you believe). Unquestioned #1 picks entering their draft year that slide for purely on-ice performance reasons have a dreadful history of busting / not living up to expectations. Hextall went against the scouts and drafted for positional need.

Laberge and Rubtsov just weren't actually that good and their injuries weren't major or career changing. Both are still playing as of last year, one doing nothing in the KHL, the other in the ECHL, where players his age go to die.

But yes, I do agree with your general point. Injuries have certainly played a decently large factor in things.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Scouts are dogshit first, and foremost.

Yeah they have been too stupid to draft in the gimme top 3 slot often enough but they have one real homegrown superstar since the day Lindros departed. How much true elite talent has the league seen since then that the Flyers have infused?

Thats issue numero uno, and has been blissfully ignored for far too long.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Scouts are dogshit first, and foremost.

Yeah they have been too stupid to draft in the gimme top 3 slot often enough but they have one real homegrown superstar since the day Lindros departed. How much true elite talent has the league seen since then that the Flyers have infused?

Thats issue numero uno, and has been blissfully ignored for far too long.

who needs to draft young skill when u can sign FA old grinders..


now thats how you build a team

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Scouts are dogshit first, and foremost.

Yeah they have been too stupid to draft in the gimme top 3 slot often enough but they have one real homegrown superstar since the day Lindros departed. How much true elite talent has the league seen since then that the Flyers have infused?

Thats issue numero uno, and has been blissfully ignored for far too long.

Are the scouts actually dogshit, or were they just ignored by egomaniacs like Hextall and Chuckles looking to draft for need / size fetish for too long? I'm genuinely asking.

I personally feel like the last 2 drafts were well executed. Proof will be in the pudding obviously, but I see a solid foundation.

 

[Cody Webster]

With Morin and Patrick you'd have a decent argument about significant injuries. But even Patrick, when healthy and playing 70+ games his first 2 years, wasn't showing the type of upside you'd like out of a number 2 pick. To me, that was an example of a flawed / bad draft process. The scouts were clear that Makar was their guy (or were split on Heiskanen / Makar, depending on who you believe). Unquestioned #1 picks entering their draft year that slide for purely on-ice performance reasons have a dreadful history of busting / not living up to expectations. Hextall went against the scouts and drafted for positional need.

Laberge and Rubtsov just weren't actually that good and their injuries weren't major or career changing. Both are still playing as of last year, one doing nothing in the KHL, the other in the ECHL, where players his age go to die.

But yes, I do agree with your general point. Injuries have certainly played a decently large factor in things.

Says who, Bobby Clarke?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

With Morin and Patrick you'd have a decent argument about significant injuries. But even Patrick, when healthy and playing 70+ games his first 2 years, wasn't showing the type of upside you'd like out of a number 2 pick. To me, that was an example of a flawed / bad draft process. The scouts were clear that Makar was their guy (or were split on Heiskanen / Makar, depending on who you believe). Unquestioned #1 picks entering their draft year that slide for purely on-ice performance reasons have a dreadful history of busting / not living up to expectations. Hextall went against the scouts and drafted for positional need.

Laberge and Rubtsov just weren't actually that good and their injuries weren't major or career changing. Both are still playing as of last year, one doing nothing in the KHL, the other in the ECHL, where players his age go to die.

But yes, I do agree with your general point. Injuries have certainly played a decently large factor in things.

yep

 

[deadhead]

Are the scouts actually dogshit, or were they just ignored by egomaniacs like Hextall and Chuckles looking to draft for need / size fetish for too long? I'm genuinely asking.

I personally feel like the last 2 drafts were well executed. Proof will be in the pudding obviously, but I see a solid foundation.

Outside of Tuomaala, which may explain some European changes, I think Fletcher/Flahr had a solid record drafting, nor did they focus on size - if there was a flaw, too much emphasis on shooting v playmaking, but it wasn't extreme (Foerster, Kaplan).

Their biggest problem was the win now mandate, which lead CF to trade away draft picks instead of accumulating them.

 

[Curufinwe]

Patrick laberge and rubstov all had significant injuries now I'm not saying they would have been stars but we'd be having a very different conversation if they'd been healthy

Patrick definitely. Not sure about the other two.

 

[PDX Flyer]

Patrick definitely. Not sure about the other two.

Laberge was never the same after that monster hit he took. Totally ruined his game

 

[Curufinwe]

Funny quote from a Flyers regular who turns 29 in October and has NEVER played in a playoff game:

"I've been thinking about it for a while the last few seasons because where I think I'm at my best is when I play meaningful games and then I see myself as a playoff type of player. Not that young anymore, but still young. But I need to get some meaningful games and try to make the playoffs. I think Philly, they're very close, right up there to battling those playoff spots."

 

[Rebels57]

With Morin and Patrick you'd have a decent argument about significant injuries. But even Patrick, when healthy and playing 70+ games his first 2 years, wasn't showing the type of upside you'd like out of a number 2 pick. To me, that was an example of a flawed / bad draft process. The scouts were clear that Makar was their guy (or were split on Heiskanen / Makar, depending on who you believe). Unquestioned #1 picks entering their draft year that slide for purely on-ice performance reasons have a dreadful history of busting / not living up to expectations. Hextall went against the scouts and drafted for positional need.

Laberge and Rubtsov just weren't actually that good and their injuries weren't major or career changing. Both are still playing as of last year, one doing nothing in the KHL, the other in the ECHL, where players his age go to die.

But yes, I do agree with your general point. Injuries have certainly played a decently large factor in things.

Lol you actually believe this bullshit that Clarke said 4 years after the draft to deflect criticism away from his chosen one Fletcher?

There was NEVER a single rumor of the Flyers or their scouts having interest in Makar on draft day or in the 4 years after until Clarke's interview in January of 2021, when Makar was already an established star in the NHL and the entire fanbase was marching on the doors of the Wells with pitchforks because Fletcher turned them into a laughing stock.

There were rumblings that SOME of the scouts preferred Heiskanen to Patrick.

The pick was ALWAYS going to be Patrick if Hischier went 1st. How could it not be? He was the consensus #2 pick from every scouting source and the Flyers needed to draft a future 1C. He was seen as having that potential. It wasn't bad process to draft Patrick. It a combination of bad development and bad luck that he didn't work out.

This revisionist history about the Patrick pick by gullible fools that believe Clarkes lies is really quite sad.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's amazing how obvious propaganda like the Scouts-wanted-Makar shit gets eaten up. Clarke only put that out there to try and get some of the heat off his boy, Fletcher.

 

[Rebels57]

It's amazing how obvious propaganda like the Scouts-wanted-Makar shit gets eaten up. Clarke only put that out there to try and get some of the heat of his boy, Fletcher.

Hook, Line, and Sinker.

 

[renberg]

Patrick had been played up by the Canadian press to be the #1 selection for two years. With the ties that Hextall had with the family there was no way that he was going to pass on making him the selection. He was hoping that the Devils would take Hischier and jumped on the Patrick choice as quickly as he could. Maker and Heiskanen were never on his radar.

 

[ponder719]

It is, as ever, typical Flyer luck: the one year we hit the lottery and move up to #2, we desperately needed the consensus top two names both off the board before we picked.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Funny quote from a Flyers regular who turns 29 in October and has NEVER played in a playoff game:

"I've been thinking about it for a while the last few seasons because where I think I'm at my best is when I play meaningful games and then I see myself as a playoff type of player. Not that young anymore, but still young. But I need to get some meaningful games and try to make the playoffs. I think Philly, they're very close, right up there to battling those playoff spots."

LOL Fisto..

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

It's amazing how obvious propaganda like the Scouts-wanted-Makar shit gets eaten up. Clarke only put that out there to try and get some of the heat of his boy, Fletcher.

Even more weird when you consider the first time we heard any of that was in 2020 when the Stars were in the SCF and it was that they wanted Heiskanen.

People believe what they want because the truth can be too scary.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I want to try my hardest to do this without being rude. If I fail, I apologize in advance.

Nolan Patrick was not a can't miss 1OA. We had these discussions in real time before his draft year even started. Guys like Craig Button said he was. That does not mean everyone else did.

That does not mean I believe Bobby Clarke for a second or that the overwhelming majority of NHL teams would have seriously considered passing him at 2OA let alone actually taken someone else. Two different issues. Hell, the team that took Makar wanted Patrick instead.

Laberge was never the same after that monster hit he took. Totally ruined his game

I haven't done this in a while, so let's do it again. Here's the Laberge timeline:

• Top prospect in his QMJHL draft class.
• Flat out bad for Gatineau in his first Q year.
• Gets traded to Victoriaville in the middle of the year.
• No better than fine for the rest of the season.
• No better than fine for the first half of his draft year.
• Strong last 2 months makes him a draft riser. Still only 25th in the decidedly mediocre 2015-16 Q in PPG.
• Drafted.
• Flat out sucks in the first 7 games of the year.
• Takes the hit in question

Two months drive that entire narrative. Sometimes you draft those late risers and they take off. That's the Sanheim arc. But not always.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Outside of Tuomaala, which may explain some European changes, I think Fletcher/Flahr had a solid record drafting, nor did they focus on size - if there was a flaw, too much emphasis on shooting v playmaking, but it wasn't extreme (Foerster, Kaplan).

Their biggest problem was the win now mandate, which lead CF to trade away draft picks instead of accumulating them.

There was no mandate. They're just stupid.

 

[deadhead]

Patrick was a 2C candidate, same with Nico. If you're lucky, they develop into a 1C, but no guarantees.

Laberge is an example of the triumph of "hope over experience," that is, a good gamble if taken later in the draft, but a bad risk taken where he was - though it was a very weak draft.

The story isn't "Hextall was an awful drafter," he was middle of the road, with an unhealthy fixation on the traditional Flyer mucker in the middle rounds (weighted too much to size over speed). When he had a lot of picks to work with, he did good, when he stopped accumulating picks his mistakes were more obvious.

Fletcher/Flahr seem as good or better than Hextall, their problem was CF trading away picks (about one year's worth in four years) instead of accumulating them. York, Foerster and Gauthier all seem destined to start in the NHL, Andrae, Brink and Tuomaala in the 2nd rd are more questionable. Attard, Kolosov and Kaplan seem like a good 3rd rd haul.

So far Briere/Flahr are off to a good start, but it helps to draft high with multiple picks, I predict the Flyers farm system will be rated in the top 5 next summer after a second draft with 4 picks in the first two rounds.

Of course, we won't know how well they really drafted for 5 years or so.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Patrick was a 2C candidate, same with Nico. If you're lucky, they develop into a 1C, but no guarantees.

Laberge is an example of the triumph of "hope over experience," that is, a good gamble if taken later in the draft, but a bad risk taken where he was - though it was a very weak draft.

The story isn't "Hextall was an awful drafter," he was middle of the road, with an unhealthy fixation on the traditional Flyer mucker in the middle rounds (weighted too much to size over speed). When he had a lot of picks to work with, he did good, when he stopped accumulating picks his mistakes were more obvious.

Fletcher/Flahr seem as good or better than Hextall, their problem was CF trading away picks (about one year's worth in four years) instead of accumulating them. York, Foerster and Gauthier all seem destined to start in the NHL, Andrae, Brink and Tuomaala in the 2nd rd are more questionable. Attard, Kolosov and Kaplan seem like a good 3rd rd haul.

So far Briere/Flahr are off to a good start, but it helps to draft high with multiple picks, I predict the Flyers farm system will be rated in the top 5 next summer after a second draft with 4 picks in the first two rounds.

Of course, we won't know how well they really drafted for 5 years or so.

Choosing not to make picks is a drafting decision. It's not a thing that happened to them on accident.

They've also yet to have any of their players be better than Hextall's picks, or even firmly show they will be. Getting quite ahead of yourself in your worship.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Lol you actually believe this bullshit that Clarke said 4 years after the draft to deflect criticism away from his chosen one Fletcher?

There was NEVER a single rumor of the Flyers or their scouts having interest in Makar on draft day or in the 4 years after until Clarke's interview in January of 2021, when Makar was already an established star in the NHL and the entire fanbase was marching on the doors of the Wells with pitchforks because Fletcher turned them into a laughing stock.

There were rumblings that SOME of the scouts preferred Heiskanen to Patrick.

The pick was ALWAYS going to be Patrick if Hischier went 1st. How could it not be? He was the consensus #2 pick from every scouting source and the Flyers needed to draft a future 1C. He was seen as having that potential. It wasn't bad process to draft Patrick. It a combination of bad development and bad luck that he didn't work out.

This revisionist history about the Patrick pick by gullible fools that believe Clarkes lies is really quite sad.

lol...love the clarke hate

yes it was has Ronald didn't want to hear it for his scouting staff

 

[Beef Invictus]

lol...love the clarke hate

yes it was has Ronald didn't want to hear it for his scouting staff

The source for that is a Bob Clarke who has changed the story, and been contradicted by other internal sources. Clarke is a lowlife liar who is extremely petty and will say anything he has to in order to slam a Hextall that didn't worship him sufficiently. He isn't a reliable source. He isn't useful for anything, actually.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The source for that is a Bob Clarke who has changed the story, and been contradicted by other internal sources. Clarke is a lowlife liar who is extremely petty and will say anything he has to in order to slam a Hextall that didn't worship him sufficiently. He isn't a reliable source. He isn't useful for anything, actually.

love the clarke hate. He hasnt changed the story. He got the players name wrong. Believe what you like. Scouts and others have verified the story.

Slamming Ronald lol. Poor Ronald getting called out. What a shame. Nah just telling it like it is is how I see it

 

[FlyerNutter]

Intriguing to lay blame at the feet of the general managers throughout the last 20 years but ignore the failures of the scouting department directly responsible.