2022/23 Roster Thread XVIII: The bats have left the bell tower

[Beef Invictus]

Torts has done it twice. BrindA'mour did it in Carolina.
Establish structure, weed out the players who don't fit, add and promote players who do fit, get buy-in.
It helps to have a great young goalie tandem (who hopefully don't choke in the POs like Bob).

Problem is getting to the playoffs can create a false narrative, "we're a playoff team, one or two tweaks and we can make a deep run."

Torts is realistic, having "been there, done that," but the current FO, delusional geezers (takes one to know one!).
So we need a FO with their "eye on the prize."

Burning it to the ground is less realistic than patiently building with this team, you'd have to trade three or four players (TK, Provorov, Hart, . . . ) to hope to be bad enough to draft in the top five for 3 or 4 years, fire Torts and hire a bad HC. And it'll take 6-8 years because making the team bad enough will also ensure that the turnaround takes forever.

Teams that do quick turnarounds tend to be average to above average teams that have a bad season(s) due to injuries, add a top player or two in the draft, then get healthy. So they don't expect a top young player to carry a thin team, but to be the "cherry on top."

Tortorella and Brindamour are not general managers.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what coaches and managers do. This whole "coaches do everything" stance is a massive change for you though. For years you argued coaches are fungible and irrelevant and can't possibly be blamed for anything, now suddenly they're running the teams.

What is it?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Torts has done it twice. BrindA'mour did it in Carolina.
Establish structure, weed out the players who don't fit, add and promote players who do fit, get buy-in.
It helps to have a great young goalie tandem (who hopefully don't choke in the POs like Bob).

Problem is getting to the playoffs can create a false narrative, "we're a playoff team, one or two tweaks and we can make a deep run."

Torts is realistic, having "been there, done that," but the current FO, delusional geezers (takes one to know one!).
So we need a FO with their "eye on the prize."

Burning it to the ground is less realistic than patiently building with this team, you'd have to trade three or four players (TK, Provorov, Hart, . . . ) to hope to be bad enough to draft in the top five for 3 or 4 years, fire Torts and hire a bad HC. And it'll take 6-8 years because making the team bad enough will also ensure that the turnaround takes forever.

Teams that do quick turnarounds tend to be average to above average teams that have a bad season(s) due to injuries, add a top player or two in the draft, then get healthy. So they don't expect a top young player to carry a thin team, but to be the "cherry on top."

What do you think "a short-term run" is and why are you attributing all of this to coaches? I was assuming you meant be on a clear path to contention in ~2 years, but am now realizing that might have been an error on my part.

Tortorella did it twice is worth examining. He took over a team with a 25yo future HOFer, a 20yo generational prospect, and a 20yo historically productive prospect already on the NHL team. Even if we set aside that this was a completely different NHL and that he won a Cup by being on the progressive side of league thinking despite being on the conservative side now, they don't have those pieces and they don't have a realistic path to getting them without an incredible run of luck. This applies is no way besides checking off a box marked "Cup" and asking for applause.

What exactly did Tortorella do in Columbus that says he's anything other than a guy who can squeeze the effort equity out of a middling roster? That gets obliterated when you have to play real contenders in a full series.

With Brind'Amour, I know everyone loves him around here, but is there any actual evidence that he's a great coach? Don't get me wrong, simply being respected in the dressing room and willing to listen to input can get you about 90% of the way to being a good NHL coach. But what in particular makes him such a special example? I'm trying to be careful to not say I know he's less than great. I don't have any idea. I've just never seen it spelled out convincingly.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What do you think "a short-term run" is and why are you attributing all of this to coaches? I was assuming you meant be on a clear path to contention in ~2 years, but am now realizing that might have been an error on my part.

Tortorella did it twice is worth examining. He took over a team with a 25yo future HOFer, a 20yo generational prospect, and a 20yo historically productive prospect already on the NHL team. Even if we set aside that this was a completely different NHL and that he won a Cup by being on the progressive side of league thinking despite being on the conservative side now, they don't have those pieces and they don't have a realistic path to getting them without an incredible run of luck. This applies is no way besides checking off a box marked "Cup" and asking for applause.

What exactly did Tortorella do in Columbus that says he's anything other than a guy who can squeeze the effort equity out of a middling roster? That gets obliterated when you have to play real contenders in a full series.

With Brind'Amour, I know everyone loves him around here, but is there any actual evidence that he's a great coach? Don't get me wrong, simply being respected in the dressing room and willing to listen to input can get you about 90% of the way to being a good NHL coach. But what in particular makes him such a special example? I'm trying to be careful to not say I know he's less than great. I don't have any idea. I've just never seen it spelled out convincingly.

The roster he posted which he believes would contend (it wouldn't, but never mind that) indicates he thinks it can happen next year. He has absolutely no conception of how dire the team's situation is. No wonder he defends everything.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Or, uh, Travis Konecny?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Or, uh, Travis Konecny?

goes to show were the Flyers stackup..

not even mentioned

 

[deadhead]

What do you think "a short-term run" is and why are you attributing all of this to coaches? I was assuming you meant be on a clear path to contention in ~2 years, but am now realizing that might have been an error on my part.

Tortorella did it twice is worth examining. He took over a team with a 25yo future HOFer, a 20yo generational prospect, and a 20yo historically productive prospect already on the NHL team. Even if we set aside that this was a completely different NHL and that he won a Cup by being on the progressive side of league thinking despite being on the conservative side now, they don't have those pieces and they don't have a realistic path to getting them without an incredible run of luck. This applies is no way besides checking off a box marked "Cup" and asking for applause.

What exactly did Tortorella do in Columbus that says he's anything other than a guy who can squeeze the effort equity out of a middling roster? That gets obliterated when you have to play real contenders in a full series.

With Brind'Amour, I know everyone loves him around here, but is there any actual evidence that he's a great coach? Don't get me wrong, simply being respected in the dressing room and willing to listen to input can get you about 90% of the way to being a good NHL coach. But what in particular makes him such a special example? I'm trying to be careful to not say I know he's less than great. I don't have any idea. I've just never seen it spelled out convincingly.

Tampa Bay 2000-01:
Richards (20) rookie #64, 82g 14-22 36 (ES)
Modin (26) 76g 24-13 37
LeCavalier (20) #1, 68g 16-18 34
St Louis (25) 78g 12-17 29
Johnson (26) 64g 7-16 23
Holzinger (28) 70g 8-19 27

Kubina (24) #179, 70g 24:06
Aucoin (27) 26g 23:34
Mara (21) #7, 46g 23:06
Cullimore (28) 74g 19:43
Sarich (22) 73g 18:44
Zyuzin (23) 64g 18:39

Khabibulin (28) G .920 Sv%

Not exactly murder's row, St Louis was a 25 year old 3rd line guy, Modin, Johnson, Holzinger middle six guys, basically Richards and Vinnie at forward. Kubina, Aucoin and Mara more 2nd pair guys. But it was a young team that could be coached up.

Two years later they added Prospal (27), Boyle (26), Fedotenko (24), Clymer (24), on defense, Boyle (26), Lukowich (26), Pratt (27), Neckar (27). Only veterans Andreychuk (39), Taylor (33).
The Cup year they brought in Stillman (30). Khabibulin didn't play out of his guord, .910 Sv%, but PO .933.

In CBJ, he turned the team around before they made major acquisitions.

BrindA'mour turned Carolina around, they made some major acquisitions, but not a great increase in overall talent:
Hamilton and Ferland for Lindholm and Hanifan, drafted Svechnikov #2, Rask for Neiderreiter in mid-season.
Most of the improvement was getting players on the roster to raise their game.
Last four seasons, constant turnover on the roster yet they stay competitive every year.
Biggest problem has been the lack of a franchise goalie (Flyers fans from a couple decades ago can commiserate).

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

goes to show were the Flyers stackup..

not even mentioned

I mean, the Eagles/Phillies/Sixers all have legitimate superstars on their teams. Even when the Flyers were good they didn't really have the type of superstars outside of prime pre-injury Lindros in the last like 40 years. Maybe Forsberg or Pronger but when they were here they were past their prime. Giroux should have been at that level but I feel like he never got the respect he deserved league-wide. Anyway, the Flyers suck.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Not exactly murder's row, St Louis was a 25 year old 3rd line guy

This is so absurd that I can't keep reading. I'm sorry. Forget 20yo Brad Richards, who put up a QMJHL season that is still the highest PPG since 1986-87. Forget the 20yo generational prospect you shoulder shrugged like he was a quarter that's not worth bending over to pick up.

You're telling me that Martin St Louis, a man who crossed every reasonable HHoF threshold was a product of John Tortorella? This is a bit, right? This has to be a bit.

 

[Curufinwe]

How can you possibly think this is relevant in 2023.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

How can you possibly think this is relevant in 2023.

The refusal to acknowledge that one may be wrong is a hell of a drug.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

George W. Bush was in his first term as president when Tampa Bay won that cup in 2004.

 

[deadhead]

This is so absurd that I can't keep reading. I'm sorry. Forget 20yo Brad Richards, who put up a QMJHL season that is still the highest PPG since 1986-87. Forget the 20yo generational prospect you shoulder shrugged like he was a quarter that's not worth bending over to pick up.

You're telling me that Martin St Louis, a man who crossed every reasonable HHoF threshold was a product of John Tortorella? This is a bit, right? This has to be a bit.

Yes he was. Undrafted free agent who bounced around for year.
St Louis at 23 in Calgary: 13g 1-1 2. 24 year Calgary, 56g 3-15 18
signed by TB at 25: 78g 18-22 40 (12-17 29 ES) - Torts takes over mid-season
26: 53g 16-19 35 (9-16 25)
27: 82g 33-37 70 (18-29 47)
28: 82g 38-56 94 (22-31 53)

When the Lightning decided to make St. Louis the recipient of the franchise's first jersey retirement he had one request. He wanted his former coach and current Columbus Blue Jackets coach to be in attendance on his special night.

John Tortorella's connection with Martin St. Louis runs deep | FOX Sports

Martin St. Louis requested to have Blue Jackets' coach present on his big night

www.foxsports.com

start at 2:40:



Tort's speech

 

[DancingPanther]

George W. Bush was in his first term as president when Tampa Bay won that cup in 2004.

Crosby and Ovechkin weren't even in the f***ing league

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Yes he was. Undrafted free agent who bounced around for year.
St Louis at 23 in Calgary: 13g 1-1 2. 24 year Calgary, 56g 3-15 18
signed by TB at 25: 78g 18-22 40 (12-17 29 ES) - Torts takes over mid-season
26: 53g 16-19 35 (9-16 25)
27: 82g 33-37 70 (18-29 47)
28: 82g 38-56 94 (22-31 53)

When the Lightning decided to make St. Louis the recipient of the franchise's first jersey retirement he had one request. He wanted his former coach and current Columbus Blue Jackets coach to be in attendance on his special night.

John Tortorella's connection with Martin St. Louis runs deep | FOX Sports

Martin St. Louis requested to have Blue Jackets' coach present on his big night

www.foxsports.com

start at 2:40:



Tort's speech

Shame he couldn't will any other journeymen into HoFers. What a lazy guy.

 

[deadhead]

Atkinson also blossomed under Torts.
And gee, Frost is stepping up this season.
Don't know what it is with undersized, skilled forwards and a defensive oriented Dino?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Atkinson also blossomed under Torts.
And gee, Frost is stepping up this season.
Don't know what it is with undersized, skilled forwards and a defensive oriented Dino?

Just stop. We beg you. You’re almost at Earth’s core.

 

[Beef Invictus]

George W. Bush was in his first term as president when Tampa Bay won that cup in 2004.

HDTV wasn't even the standard at the time.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Just stop. We beg you. You’re almost at Earth’s core.

Speak for yourself. The dogs and I are on our second walk today. I listened with an open mind and decided to fire up some Tortorella clips on the phone.

Torts just helped me and the pups break the sound barrier. Sorry for the sonic boom that should be hitting you in ~6 Minutes.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Atkinson also blossomed under Torts.
And gee, Frost is stepping up this season.
Don't know what it is with undersized, skilled forwards and a defensive oriented Dino?

Frost is who he has always been. The team simply has too many injuries to keep f***ing him over.

He (and TK, actually) happen to do a lot of things that Tortorella rails against, actually. On defense and offense. For example, while everyone else will be settling into the signature shot-blocking shell, those two will actually go challenge for the puck. So I can't say I can identify any way Tortorella should be credited with anything he's doing. He'd already proven he can play defense last year and he's always been a playmaker with talent that has been readily apparent to anyone not pushing an agenda defending management.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Atkinson also blossomed under Torts.
And gee, Frost is stepping up this season.
Don't know what it is with undersized, skilled forwards and a defensive oriented Dino?

Atkinson was coming out before Tortorella was there.

You've long promised us that Tortorella is a defensive guru, a secret offensive mastermind, and a development genius. He's fallen short of everything you've promised. The team isn't improving significantly anywhere.

Why aren't you more critical of that?

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I'm so glad I'm in Mexico and not having to watch this trash. Charles 'Entertainment' Fletcher needs to be fired on rocket ship right into the f***ing sun. Clarke, Holmgren, Lombardi, Flahr and Scott need to be passengers on that rocket too.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

To be clear, you can make a pretty reasonable argument that Tortorella actually understand functional vs theoretical grit. I think he would have appreciated Giroux's for example.

He just wouldn't be given credit for Giroux's career because that's f***ing nuts.

 

[deadhead]

To be clear, you can make a pretty reasonable argument that Tortorella actually understand functional vs theoretical grit. I think he would have appreciated Giroux's for example.

He just wouldn't be given credit for Giroux's career because that's f***ing nuts.

He also has different expectations for different players.

He's said he knows TK is going to make mistakes, just make 'em aggressively, it's the price of letting a talented player off the leash.
He doesn't expect small skilled players to go around hitting people (TK never got that memo, he's starting to imitate Marchand - dirty rat dog, but our rat dog), but to back check hard and use their stick to break up plays.
That's what he's asked of Frost, play defense as hard as offense and be aggressive at both ends of the ice.

Torts likes certain kinds of skill players, the ones willing to play a 200 foot game - when you make a mistake in the O-zone, skate like the dickens (or like Jo Jo and his dogs - what kind of dogs?) to erase your mistake - don't stand there and watch your teammates try to clean up after you.

Now someone like Allison and Tippett, he wants them playing north south and use their size to make things happen, don't play like you're 180 lbs when you're closer to 210 lbs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tippett doesn't use his size to make things happen. Allison has always been a physically aggressive specimen. Tortorella didn't do that. That was his play style.

 

[DancingPanther]

HDTV wasn't even the standard at the time.

One of the best commercials ever was that golf commercial advertising HDTV, where the player was looking for the ball in the rough and everyone watching at the bars/in their houses/etc on their HD TVs were pointing to it. "It's right there! Right there!"