2022/23 Roster Thread XVIII: The bats have left the bell tower

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, they're not escaping the Fletcher Era without a bunch of dead cap space. It's his signature move.

 

[renberg]

If the Flyers are going to have to absorb that much of his contract, the return has to be good. If not, just buy him out.
This is all on Fletcher. Hayes was a clown in NYR and then with Winnipeg when he produced zilch. I get that the club was down a 2C with Patrick hitting the skids but never was Hayes going to be the answer to that problem. Now he's here and a PITA who needs to be excised.

 

[DancingPanther]

He’ll be dead before that happens.

I mean this all as if I'm GM

So you’d be willing to eat half on the same return?

What

 

[VladDrag]

ASF has been harping lately on the fact that the retention is the same rate for the entire duration of the contract in regards to Hayes. Which leads me to believe teams are asking for a full or close to 50% retention & the Flyers don’t really want to do that as they don’t want all that dead money two to three years from now with the final years of Hayes’ contract.

Really depends on the return. Teams are asking for full 50% retention, but are those teams offering up a 1st for the retention alone, because that’s what it’s worth at least…probably not knowing Chuck Fletcher is a moron and will give it up for less.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

These guys get guidance on how to talk about players so it's a window into how the team views players. They see Seeler as a core piece.

Yep. It always cracks me up hearing the broadcast repeating the same nonsense the beats put out, and always about some scrub. Mandog definitely comes to mind. The talking points are so obvious

 

[Deadpool8812]

I'd retain 50% on Hayes if we get a good return. We shouldn't need the cap space if we are doing a proper rebuild

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Yeah, they're not escaping the Fletcher Era without a bunch of dead cap space. It's his signature move.

nuclear waste zone..

thats what gets left behind.

 

[freakydallas13]

ASF has been harping lately on the fact that the retention is the same rate for the entire duration of the contract in regards to Hayes. Which leads me to believe teams are asking for a full or close to 50% retention & the Flyers don’t really want to do that as they don’t want all that dead money two to three years from now with the final years of Hayes’ contract.

Of course they don't want to retain that much, the higher ups think this team will be competing in 2 years, and that they'll need that extra space to sign more face puncher meatballs that "play the right way".

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tippett is this year's Most Interesting Player for me. He had spent quite a while affirming that he had a low ceiling, and this year he pushed it higher. Now, on a well built team he'd still be a 3rd or even 4th liner depending on their wing depth and he's still awful value for Giroux. But it's still fun to see a thoroughly stagnant player figure out the next step.

Watching him more closely once we got him, he d constantly make really good NZ passes to maintain possession and the rush, and I remarked more than once that it was confusing that he couldn't do that stuff in the OZ. Instead he was a mindless turret-drone. Now he has started doing that, and he's setting others up.

Normally I'd assume the coach gave some input that helped, but in this case he's started doing a bunch of stuff that Tortorella has openly despised and railed against, so it's probably fully on the player and that makes it more impressive.

 

[deadhead]

Tippett is this year's Most Interesting Player for me. He had spent quite a while affirming that he had a low ceiling, and this year he pushed it higher. Now, on a well built team he'd still be a 3rd or even 4th liner depending on their wing depth and he's still awful value for Giroux. But it's still fun to see a thoroughly stagnant player figure out the next step.

Watching him more closely once we got him, he d constantly make really good NZ passes to maintain possession and the rush, and I remarked more than once that it was confusing that he couldn't do that stuff in the OZ. Instead he was a mindless turret-drone. Now he has started doing that, and he's setting others up.

Normally I'd assume the coach gave some input that helped, but in this case he's started doing a bunch of stuff that Tortorella has openly despised and railed against, so it's probably fully on the player and that makes it more impressive.

How is a 1st, 3rd and Tippett an awful return for a 34 year old rental forward?

Tippett is headed toward 20+ goals in his first full season.
Last season, 134 forwards had 20+ goals. Which is not an exclusive club, but still a solid accomplishment, since there are a 192 "top 6" forwards.

Is Tippett a top 6 forward? Not yet, but the upside is there.
He's not a high IQ guy, but neither is TK for that matter. Most scoring forwards do it on skill.

Since Dec 7, when JVR returned and the lines stabilized:
xGF 51.15%, xGFrel +4.17, pp/60: 2.06
Now that's 33 games, not a full season, but it shows he has top 6 potential, he has to build on that progress.
I'd like to see him on the PK next season (right now, just focus on 5x5 and the PP, don't put too much on his plate) and use his speed like TK does.

PS: He's doing exactly what Torts wants him to do, or he'd be benched. Torts wants him to be aggressive and use his speed, and expects him to make mistakes of aggression - but he skates hard on the back check and is trying, so his sins are forgiven.
PS

 

[Beef Invictus]

How is a 1st, 3rd and Tippett an awful return for a 34 year old rental forward?

Tippett is headed toward 20+ goals in his first full season.
Last season, 134 forwards had 20+ goals. Which is not an exclusive club, but still a solid accomplishment, since there are a 192 "top 6" forwards.

Is Tippett a top 6 forward? Not yet, but the upside is there.
He's not a high IQ guy, but neither is TK for that matter. Most scoring forwards do it on skill.

Since Dec 7, when JVR returned and the lines stabilized:
xGF 51.15%, xGFrel +4.17, pp/60: 2.06
Now that's 33 games, not a full season, but it shows he has top 6 potential, he has to build on that progress.
I'd like to see him on the PK next season (right now, just focus on 5x5 and the PP, don't put too much on his plate) and use his speed like TK does.

PS: He's doing exactly what Torts wants him to do, or he'd be benched. Torts wants him to be aggressive and use his speed, and expects him to make mistakes of aggression - but he skates hard on the back check and is trying, so his sins are forgiven.
PS

Because it is. He's a 3rd liner. And the 1st is a poor one down the line.

We have already explained this to you. Why do you defend everything Fletcher does? He's clearly got to be doing something wrong, so why assume everything is fine and defend it?

PS: Tortorella has ranted against playing for possession and against horizontal passes. He wants pucks deep and grinding. He wants to play defense in the offensive zone. That's not what Tippett is doing. Thankfully.

A smart GM flips him for higher value but we don't have one of those.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Oh lawd.

I think the producer talking on 97.5 just said his second favorite team growing up was the Red Wings and then goes on to say that “I guess they played the Flyers at some point in the SCF and I had no idea.”

Now I’m guessing that this guy is really young but… god damn.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Speaking of JVR, he's a guy who's actually playing a Tortorella style game. Lots more time along the boards, pucks deep, etc. I've assumed that's a major reason his goal scoring is slashed this season. Shame he bought in.

 

[deadhead]

Because it is. He's a 3rd liner. And the 1st is a poor one down the line.

We have already explained this to you. Why do you defend everything Fletcher does? He's clearly got to be doing something wrong, so why assume everything is fine and defend it?

PS: Tortorella has ranted against playing for possession and against horizontal passes. He wants pucks deep and grinding. He wants to play defense in the offensive zone. That's not what Tippett is doing. Thankfully.

A smart GM flips him for higher value but we don't have one of those.

You haven't explain shit b/c you never do your homework, you just pull things out of your butt.
I asked you for comparables for the Giroux trade and you came up with zilch.
This was a fine return for a 34 year old forward who was a TDL rental.
So that's your assignment, find me trades for over 30 forward rentals at the TDL.

Giroux was not an elite forward, a very good one, but seen more as a top 2nd line forward than a lead dog at this point in his career. Good on the PP.
last three seasons before he was traded:
pp/60 (5x5): 1.64 (166), 2.11 (50), 1.97 (98)
xGFrel: +4.49, +4.93, +6.94
xGF/60 (PP): 7.11, 7.43, 7.54

ROR this year might be a comparable, he hasn't scored as well as G, but is a PPG PO scorer and a top defensive center, garnered a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and two scrub prospects.

Toffoli, coming off an off season after two years of 1.97 and 2.16 pp/60, got a 1st, Heineman (#43-2020 so so in the SHL) and a 5th, and Pitlick as a salary dump.

2020 Foligno garnered a 1st and 4th after posting 1.81, 1.38, 1.03. That was an overpay, though he did finish strong after the trade.

2019 (no COVID cap constraints)
Pageau 1st and 2nd
Coleman 1st and Foote
Hall 1st and 3rd
JT Miller 1st and 3rd

The only trades in recent years of forwards that garnered more than Giroux were Stone and Eichel, both under 30 stars who signed extensions with their new teams.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You haven't explain shit b/c you never do your homework, you just pull things out of your butt.
I asked you for comparables for the Giroux trade and you came up with zilch.
This was a fine return for a 34 year old forward who was a TDL rental.
So that's your assignment, find me trades for over 30 forward rentals at the TDL.

Giroux was not an elite forward, a very good one, but seen more as a top 2nd line forward than a lead dog at this point in his career. Good on the PP.
last three seasons before he was traded:
pp/60 (5x5): 1.64 (166), 2.11 (50), 1.97 (98)
xGFrel: +4.49, +4.93, +6.94
xGF/60 (PP): 7.11, 7.43, 7.54

ROR this year might be a comparable, he hasn't scored as well as G, but is a PPG PO scorer and a top defensive center, garnered a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and two scrub prospects.

Toffoli, coming off an off season after two years of 1.97 and 2.16 pp/60, got a 1st, Heineman (#43-2020 so so in the SHL) and a 5th, and Pitlick as a salary dump.

2020 Foligno garnered a 1st and 4th after posting 1.81, 1.38, 1.03. That was an overpay, though he did finish strong after the trade.

2019 (no COVID cap constraints)
Pageau 1st and 2nd
Coleman 1st and Foote
Hall 1st and 3rd
JT Miller 1st and 3rd

The only trades in recent years of forwards that garnered more than Giroux were Stone and Eichel, both under 30 stars who signed extensions with their new teams.

I like how your own post actually proves us all correct and you don't even realize it. You do this thing where, to defend Fletcher, you massively overrate the return he got. You've been given even more examples in the past but you just ignore them or conveniently "miss" them.

Also, I do my homework. Pretty constantly. Metrics, eyeball, checking usage, adding all the context I can; I do this thing that is different from you, where I gather all that information and use it to inform myself, while you decide what you want your preferred fantasy to be and then selectively pick any information that confirms it while ignoring anything else. On the management side, actually paying attention to what their behavior tells us. That's why when we butt heads on hockey matters, you're almost always wrong and I'm not.

And speaking of that Giroux return, Fletcher is shopping for centers. Because he's not rebuilding, as you've been told often. Guarantee that Florida pick will be going out for a shit return if he arranges something. Surely even Fletcher isn't dumb enough to trade our first, even though his head contains such a singularity of ignorance that it's miraculous his skull doesn't cave in.

 

[kudymen]

Imagine calling Martin f***ing St. Louis a product of John Tortorella and then somehow tell other people they pull stuff out of their butts.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Can’t even spell his name right.

 

[deadhead]

Imagine calling Martin f***ing St. Louis a product of John Tortorella and then somehow tell other people they pull stuff out of their butts.

Yeah, because he was an all-star before he played for Tortorella.
Of course, why listen to St. Louis who insisted that Tortorella be there for the ceremony retiring his number b/c he credits Torts with turning his career around.

 

[deadhead]

I like how your own post actually proves us all correct and you don't even realize it. You do this thing where, to defend Fletcher, you massively overrate the return he got. You've been given even more examples in the past but you just ignore them or conveniently "miss" them.

Also, I do my homework. Pretty constantly. Metrics, eyeball, checking usage, adding all the context I can; I do this thing that is different from you, where I gather all that information and use it to inform myself, while you decide what you want your preferred fantasy to be and then selectively pick any information that confirms it while ignoring anything else. On the management side, actually paying attention to what their behavior tells us. That's why when we butt heads on hockey matters, you're almost always wrong and I'm not.

And speaking of that Giroux return, Fletcher is shopping for centers. Because he's not rebuilding, as you've been told often. Guarantee that Florida pick will be going out for a shit return if he arranges something. Surely even Fletcher isn't dumb enough to trade our first, even though his head contains such a singularity of ignorance that it's miraculous his skull doesn't cave in.

No, you don't do your homework.
Still haven't found me an over 30 rental forward who got more in trade than Giroux.

And Tippett is a pretty valuable player, he was a buy low, high draft pick who demonstrated top level skills (size, speed, plus shot) but struggled his first couple years - now that he's playing on a regular basis you can see why he was a high draft pick - there's lots of upside left - not a top 5 elite prospect, but certainly a mid first round value.

Of the players taken after #5 in that draft, only Necas #12, Suzuki #13, Thomas #20 have clearly out performed him. He's not a star, but he's certain solid 1st round value if he continues to play like this.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, you don't do your homework.
Still haven't found me an over 30 rental forward who got more in trade than Giroux.

And Tippett is a pretty valuable player, he was a buy low, high draft pick who demonstrated top level skills (size, speed, plus shot) but struggled his first couple years - now that he's playing on a regular basis you can see why he was a high draft pick - there's lots of upside left - not a top 5 elite prospect, but certainly a mid first round value.

Of the players taken after #5 in that draft, only Necas #12, Suzuki #13, Thomas #20 have clearly out performed him. He's not a star, but he's certain solid 1st round value if he continues to play like this.

You've already been shown examples and I'm not going to do the work for someone who is actively proving he will ignore them.

 

[VladDrag]

Tippett is this year's Most Interesting Player for me. He had spent quite a while affirming that he had a low ceiling, and this year he pushed it higher. Now, on a well built team he'd still be a 3rd or even 4th liner depending on their wing depth and he's still awful value for Giroux. But it's still fun to see a thoroughly stagnant player figure out the next step.

Watching him more closely once we got him, he d constantly make really good NZ passes to maintain possession and the rush, and I remarked more than once that it was confusing that he couldn't do that stuff in the OZ. Instead he was a mindless turret-drone. Now he has started doing that, and he's setting others up.

Normally I'd assume the coach gave some input that helped, but in this case he's started doing a bunch of stuff that Tortorella has openly despised and railed against, so it's probably fully on the player and that makes it more impressive.

I like what I have seen from Tippett. He’s used his physical tools very well this year. Speed is super evident, and he can control the puck really well at top speeds.

There are still too many times, last night included, where us shoot first mentality kills offensive chances. This is what imo limits his overall potential. He’s not a mature offensive player, very reactionary and goes off his physical ability. With that being said, he’s at his best on the rush, which is so important in today’s NHL.

I think this is a perfect time to trade him to be honest, and I have grown to like him.

 

[TheKingPin]

How is a 1st, 3rd and Tippett an awful return for a 34 year old rental forward?

Tippett is headed toward 20+ goals in his first full season.
Last season, 134 forwards had 20+ goals. Which is not an exclusive club, but still a solid accomplishment, since there are a 192 "top 6" forwards.

Is Tippett a top 6 forward? Not yet, but the upside is there.
He's not a high IQ guy, but neither is TK for that matter. Most scoring forwards do it on skill.

Since Dec 7, when JVR returned and the lines stabilized:
xGF 51.15%, xGFrel +4.17, pp/60: 2.06
Now that's 33 games, not a full season, but it shows he has top 6 potential, he has to build on that progress.
I'd like to see him on the PK next season (right now, just focus on 5x5 and the PP, don't put too much on his plate) and use his speed like TK does.

PS: He's doing exactly what Torts wants him to do, or he'd be benched. Torts wants him to be aggressive and use his speed, and expects him to make mistakes of aggression - but he skates hard on the back check and is trying, so his sins are forgiven.
PS

I like Tippett more than most on here, but he gets more playing time than he would on most other teams given we have no top end talent and their is incentive for this regime to see him succeed. Plus the 1st could be as late at 2025. A 2023 1st would make a large difference.

 

[BiggE]

I'd retain 50% on Hayes if we get a good return. We shouldn't need the cap space if we are doing a proper rebuild

Oh you sweet summer child, as long as Clarke breaths “rebuild” is the word that must not be spoken.

 

[Rebels57]

I'm so glad I'm in Mexico and not having to watch this trash. Charles 'Entertainment' Fletcher needs to be fired on rocket ship right into the f***ing sun. Clarke, Holmgren, Lombardi, Flahr and Scott need to be passengers on that rocket too.

Fletcher doesn't deserve to experience the privilege of space travel.

Just give him cement boots and drop him in the most remote part of the ocean.

 

[deadhead]

I like Tippett more than most on here, but he gets more playing time than he would on most other teams given we have no top end talent and their is incentive for this regime to see him succeed. Plus the 1st could be as late at 2025. A 2023 1st would make a large difference.

The reason teams that are struggling can find these kind of guys is they have PT to spare.
Tage Thompson was in a similar boat, up and down even with Buffalo, struggled until last season when he was 24 years old - and broke out in style.
Between 21 and 23, 104g 12-10 22 (ES)
24: 78g 26-24 50
25: 55g 19-25 44

I think watching Tippett progress with PT, that there is top 6 potential there as he gains experience, the game slows down for him, and he doesn't rush things as much. He's got an elite physical package, just has to turn physical talent into on ice production and cut back on the gaffes.