2022/23 Roster Thread XVIII: The bats have left the bell tower

[Striiker]

Provy was worse today than Sanheim was in Vancouver.



99.99 -% Hayes can’t be traded.

He always is.

 

[Magua]

This article.

The Flyers' apparent plan to build a contender, and everything that's wrong with it

The Flyers do have a plan to return to relevancy, it's just one that looks highly unlikely to succeed.

theathletic.com

Charlie spends 1500 words saying the Flyers do have a (bad) plan, while describing the plan as this:

They’re flying by the seat of their pants, with each decision constantly contradicting the next. Saying they even have a bad plan gives them too much credit.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

This article.

The Flyers' apparent plan to build a contender, and everything that's wrong with it

The Flyers do have a plan to return to relevancy, it's just one that looks highly unlikely to succeed.

theathletic.com

Charlie spends 1500 words saying the Flyers do have a (bad) plan, while describing the plan as this:

They’re flying by the seat of their pants, with each decision constantly contradicting the next. Saying they even have a bad plan gives them too much credit.

I don’t have a sub to The Athletic but just for what some post here off that & twitter he’s way different on the BSH podcast. Maybe it’s just because the others point him in that direction but he’s more critical of the Flyers & makes fun of them on that.

 

[Magua]

I don’t have a sub to The Athletic but just for what some post here off that & twitter he’s way different on the BSH podcast.

He’s clearly spelling out the unlikelihood of each possible step, culminating in inevitable failure. I just feel like he’s saying this is their roadmap and not this is me retroactively making them their roadmap. Saying they have a bad plan gives them a metric ton more competency and consistency than they deserve.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This article.

The Flyers' apparent plan to build a contender, and everything that's wrong with it

The Flyers do have a plan to return to relevancy, it's just one that looks highly unlikely to succeed.

theathletic.com

Charlie spends 1500 words saying the Flyers do have a (bad) plan, while describing the plan as this:

They’re flying by the seat of their pants, with each decision constantly contradicting the next. Saying they even have a bad plan gives them too much credit.

I am positive that winning the Calgary game has completely reversed whatever the plan was after the prior two games.

It can't be emphasized enough that Fletcher hinged his entire plan with Risto, and thus his offseason opportunities as well, on him having a single decent game in March. Five years locked in because of a knee-jerk.

 

[trostol]

Provy was worse today than Sanheim was in Vancouver.



99.99 -% Hayes can’t be traded.

Prob..but there was an Avs fan in the trades board that said they'd take him at 50% retained for Newhook and a 1st...lets get that going lol

 

[flyerslducks]

@Ghosts Beer, I think my question to you might have gotten lost in the shuffle and I want to make sure you have every opportunity to answer it. I'm eager to learn from you and frankly still disappointed that you never got around to sharing those videos highlighting Brink's defensive issues with me.

What's got you excited about Hak's coaching in Seattle? Please feel free to break down his systems and how he's utilizing his players. As I said, I'm eager to learn.

Ima break it down real quick:

 

[GapToothedWonder]

You’d think they would be going for Bedard. This season has Ellis, Couts, Atkinson all out and Cates as your 1C. If tanking to be a contender makes them think they will lose fans, tanking for one year to get a superstar should still be a no brainer given the above.

"This season"

 

[BillDineen]

He’s clearly spelling out the unlikelihood of each possible step, culminating in inevitable failure. I just feel like he’s saying this is their roadmap and not this is me retroactively making them their roadmap. Saying they have a bad plan gives them a metric ton more competency and consistency than they deserve.

It is the Homer "just get in and ya never know" approach to all aspects. Basically their entire plan is luck out somehow. Luck out drafting the next Pasta, luck out that a prospect develops above expectations, luck out a long playoff run with a hot goalie.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It is the Homer "just get in and ya never know" approach to all aspects. Basically their entire plan is luck out somehow. Luck out drafting the next Pasta, luck out that a prospect develops above expectations, luck out a long playoff run with a hot goalie.

At this point they need to luck out on numerous players suddenly performing well above everything they've ever been, too. A solid 15 dudes having career years at once.

"Get in and anything can happen" usually only works if you have a really strong roster or a goalie out of his mind.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

At this point they need to luck out on numerous players suddenly performing well above everything they've ever been, too. A solid 15 dudes having career years at once.

"Get in and anything can happen" usually only works if you have a really strong roster or a goalie out of his mind.

Yeah, but 2010.

Wait…

 

[deadhead]

There is a roadmap for a short-term run, basically it depends on Couts returning at close to 100%.
Couts as 1C, Frost 2C, Cates 3C, Desnoyers 4C.
Farabee back next season, Atkinson, TK, Laughton, Gauthier, Tippett, Laczynski, Lycksell, Deslauriers.

Farabee - Couts - TK
Tippett - Frost - Atkinson
Laughton - Cates - Allison
Deslauriers - Desnoyers - Foerster
Laczynski, Lycksell
If Gauthier comes out, move Laughton?

Have the goalies.

York - [RHD]
Sanheim - Risto
Zamula/Ginning - TDA/Attard

You don't have to crash and burn, you do have to turn JVR, Hayes, and Provorov into a young 1RHD, a young top 6 forward and some draft assets. Nailing one of those two needs in this year's draft would be a big help.

Couts and Atkinson would be the only players over 30, TDA would be gone after next season.
The key is not going for a quick fix, but adding quality young players, moving out older, slower veterans, and getting younger and faster.

But do I trust the current FO to execute this plan? Nah.

 

[Cody Webster]

There is a roadmap for a short-term run, basically it depends on Couts returning at close to 100%.
Couts as 1C, Frost 2C, Cates 3C, Desnoyers 4C.
Farabee back next season, Atkinson, TK, Laughton, Gauthier, Tippett, Laczynski, Lycksell, Deslauriers.

Farabee - Couts - TK
Tippett - Frost - Atkinson
Laughton - Cates - Allison
Deslauriers - Desnoyers - Foerster
Laczynski, Lycksell
If Gauthier comes out, move Laughton?

Have the goalies.

York - [RHD]
Sanheim - Risto
Zamula/Ginning - TDA/Attard

You don't have to crash and burn, you do have to turn JVR, Hayes, and Provorov into a young 1RHD, a young top 6 forward and some draft assets. Nailing one of those two needs in this year's draft would be a big help.

Couts and Atkinson would be the only players over 30, TDA would be gone after next season.
The key is not going for a quick fix, but adding quality young players, moving out older, slower veterans, and getting younger and faster.

But do I trust the current FO to execute this plan? Nah.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The roadmap for a short-term run involves 13 sorcerers doing a ritualistic Shot Blocking dance around an animated golem in the likeness of an AI-generated render of Tortorella eating a hot dog.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The roadmap for a short-term run involves 13 sorcerers doing a ritualistic Shot Blocking dance around an animated golem in the likeness of an AI-generated render of Tortorella eating a hot dog.

@Beef Invictus Paint please.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There is a roadmap for a short-term run, basically it depends on Couts returning at close to 100%.
Couts as 1C, Frost 2C, Cates 3C, Desnoyers 4C.
Farabee back next season, Atkinson, TK, Laughton, Gauthier, Tippett, Laczynski, Lycksell, Deslauriers.

Farabee - Couts - TK
Tippett - Frost - Atkinson
Laughton - Cates - Allison
Deslauriers - Desnoyers - Foerster
Laczynski, Lycksell
If Gauthier comes out, move Laughton?

Have the goalies.

York - [RHD]
Sanheim - Risto
Zamula/Ginning - TDA/Attard

You don't have to crash and burn, you do have to turn JVR, Hayes, and Provorov into a young 1RHD, a young top 6 forward and some draft assets. Nailing one of those two needs in this year's draft would be a big help.

Couts and Atkinson would be the only players over 30, TDA would be gone after next season.
The key is not going for a quick fix, but adding quality young players, moving out older, slower veterans, and getting younger and faster.

But do I trust the current FO to execute this plan? Nah.

Those rosters are never, ever happening. You haven't been paying any objective attention if you think this team could ever let that much youth play. Never happening.

You predicted that would be happening right now if the team was in its current state. It isn't. It never will.

 

[Beef Invictus]

@Beef Invictus Paint please.

This might be hard to do without nudity. I'll see.

 

[deadhead]

The roadmap for a short-term run involves 13 sorcerers doing a ritualistic Shot Blocking dance around an animated golem in the likeness of an AI-generated render of Tortorella eating a hot dog.

Cute, but it can be done.

Compare Boston (blew their two high picks, Seguin and Wheeler in bad trades) and Carolina (traded Hanifan and Lindholm and then let Hamilton walk) with say Buffalo. How can teams leak top ten picks and stay competitive while other teams load up on those picks and suck indefinitely?

Tanking takes close to a decade IF successful, and fails as much as it succeeds. And the lottery makes it even harder.

A competent FO can win without tanking, an incompetent FO will tank the tank.

Luck matters in a tank, the Pens and Blackhawks picked high at the right time, the Flyers ended up with JVR and Patrick. Free agency also can be an issue, a long tank may result in that high pick leaving town for greener pastures. And the cap is an issue, Toronto built a team around a handful of expensive stars and has struggled with depth, same with Edmonton.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Cute, but it can be done.

Compare Boston (blew their two high picks, Seguin and Wheeler in bad trades) and Carolina (traded Hanifan and Lindholm and then let Hamilton walk) with say Buffalo. How can teams leak top ten picks and stay competitive while other teams load up on those picks and suck indefinitely?

Tanking takes close to a decade IF successful, and fails as much as it succeeds. And the lottery makes it even harder.

A competent FO can win without tanking, an incompetent FO will tank the tank.

Luck matters in a tank, the Pens and Blackhawks picked high at the right time, the Flyers ended up with JVR and Patrick. Free agency also can be an issue, a long tank may result in that high pick leaving town for greener pastures. And the cap is an issue, Toronto built a team around a handful of expensive stars and has struggled with depth, same with Edmonton.

We have possibly the most incompetent and cowardly front office in sports. It isn't possible.

Your plan also needs a player development process that doesn't churn out failure and stagnation to suddenly become miraculous. That damage alone will take years to repair. There is no or short term fix. It's impossible. You're vastly underestimating how bad this situation is.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Cute, but it can be done.

Compare Boston (blew their two high picks, Seguin and Wheeler in bad trades) and Carolina (traded Hanifan and Lindholm and then let Hamilton walk) with say Buffalo. How can teams leak top ten picks and stay competitive while other teams load up on those picks and suck indefinitely?

Tanking takes close to a decade IF successful, and fails as much as it succeeds. And the lottery makes it even harder.

A competent FO can win without tanking, an incompetent FO will tank the tank.

Luck matters in a tank, the Pens and Blackhawks picked high at the right time, the Flyers ended up with JVR and Patrick. Free agency also can be an issue, a long tank may result in that high pick leaving town for greener pastures. And the cap is an issue, Toronto built a team around a handful of expensive stars and has struggled with depth, same with Edmonton.

You will get no argument from me that almost any overarching strategy can work. Some are just much more difficult than others. None of that is related to my skepticism.

Working quickly is another matter entirely. They don't have the talent base in players, front office, development, or coaching. Having this many middling, disparate pieces means it's going to take a quantity of moves to make it work. Even if they hired my personal dream candidate, I don't believe that's a realistic goal to achieve in the short term.

I would argue even letting it hang around as a possibility is harmful. They can't find the road to meaningful improvement. Get there first and then talk about timelines.

 

[Striiker]

Weren't you guys just getting scolded for overrating prospects a few days ago?

 

[deadhead]

You will get no argument from me that almost any overarching strategy can work. Some are just much more difficult than others. None of that is related to my skepticism.

Working quickly is another matter entirely. They don't have the talent base in players, front office, development, or coaching. Having this many middling, disparate pieces means it's going to take a quantity of moves to make it work. Even if they hired my personal dream candidate, I don't believe that's a realistic goal to achieve in the short term.

I would argue even letting it hang around as a possibility is harmful. They can't find the road to meaningful improvement. Get there first and then talk about timelines.

Torts has done it twice. BrindA'mour did it in Carolina.
Establish structure, weed out the players who don't fit, add and promote players who do fit, get buy-in.
It helps to have a great young goalie tandem (who hopefully don't choke in the POs like Bob).

Problem is getting to the playoffs can create a false narrative, "we're a playoff team, one or two tweaks and we can make a deep run."

Torts is realistic, having "been there, done that," but the current FO, delusional geezers (takes one to know one!).
So we need a FO with their "eye on the prize."

Burning it to the ground is less realistic than patiently building with this team, you'd have to trade three or four players (TK, Provorov, Hart, . . . ) to hope to be bad enough to draft in the top five for 3 or 4 years, fire Torts and hire a bad HC. And it'll take 6-8 years because making the team bad enough will also ensure that the turnaround takes forever.

Teams that do quick turnarounds tend to be average to above average teams that have a bad season(s) due to injuries, add a top player or two in the draft, then get healthy. So they don't expect a top young player to carry a thin team, but to be the "cherry on top."

 

[Striiker]

Hard to believe an elite, innovative, franchise-altering coach like Torts hasn’t won a cup in 19 years.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Weed out players that don't fit ???

We can clearly see which players Torts wants to fit !

Hint, they both played 14 mins last night.