2022/23 Roster Thread XVI: Suite 16, Room for Improvement

[Flyerfan4life]

The writing was on the wall early that they had a legit chance at Bedard if they were bad enough.

Yet we are Sanheim extended, TK some sort of untouchable core piece, and Provorov still on the team.

I don’t understand how the legit chance at a generational player, with the chance to impact a team for 15yrs isn’t somehow more important. You’d think the business, and marketing side of things would make enough noise themselves.

It’s a huge failure in overall execution, and planning that’s being ignored. They are still within range of improving those odds but humming along status quo.

Because somehow those players listed above are more important. Lunacy.

forward thinking ? lol not this Org..

 

[JojoTheWhale]

60 point?! Be like Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet and put on that Hopium mask.

Charlie O'Connor: “A one-two punch down the middle of Bedard and physical specimen (and 2022 No. 5 pick) Cutter Gauthier could — in a best-case scenario — turn into the East’s version of McDavid and Draisaitl.“

If my career was bet on this franchise, I'd be...no wait, I'd never do something that nutty. But I do kinda get it. He just wants to be happy again, so he'll trot out best case scenarios and cling to the disclaimer.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

My point is they're not in the kind of hole where you need 5-7 years to dig out.
They're in a situation that a smart GM could completely turn things around in three years.

Risto isn't an issue unless you're planning to sign a big name UFA the next couple years, which would be stupid.
JVR is gone at the TDL, Hayes this summer, even if you eat some on Hayes, that's $10M off the books.
Either TDA learns to play defense or that's $5M more gone in two summers.
Provorov and his $6.75M is like on the trading block, Laughton and his $3M may be offered.

The key is committing to youth, focus on garnering assets and using that new found cap room to sweeten trades and garner more assets, not to buy "win now" FAs. By the summer of 2024, eating some of Risto's deal to move him without adding assets could be easily done.

The problem is whether this FO (or the next one) is willing to commit to such a strategy, not the difficulty of implementing the strategy.

So do you see the Flyers retaining 50% on Hayes summer of 2023 then another 50% for Risto summer of 2024? The top 2 prize acquisitions. Not a f***ing chance.

Also imo this buying out of Hayes is media /fan driven IMO. Cant see them going that route at this time. Remember they are rebuilding so why hand cuff your team years down the line.

Also on Ivan and Laughton. You don't ever account for the fact the GM and coach love them both. They are seen as part of the solution.

Or they re-sign Tony D.

Here is a scenario for you. Lets say the coach tells the GM he really like what JVR brings to the table. Both on the ice and locker room. See if he wants to re-sign for a year or 2. Would you support that move?

Listened to ASF on Myrterus’ or whatever’s podcast. He still thinks Hayes is gone one or way another before next year whether it’s a trade or buyout. He said Tortorella doesn’t want Hayes on his team & Hayes doesn’t want to play for Tortorella. He made it seem like Tortorella thinks Hayes is a bad influence on the younger players on this team & the “culture” he’s trying to establish going forward. So he doesn’t really a path for Hayes back next even if it’s a buyout.

If they had a creative GM they could move hi by the deadline with 50% retention. Several teams would surely be interested. Enough where you will actually got something back useful in either a pick or prospect.

 

[flyersnorth]

His qualifications include having Boomer tastes while still in college. Not cool enough for the cool people. Not weird enough for the nerds. The worst of both worlds.

I look forward to reading Tucker’s new book.

My Time At EA and AB: How I Learned To Suck The Soul Out Of A Game And Sell It Back To Gamers As A Microtransaction.

 

[Rebels57]

Does anyone even know the extent of the hole that the Flyers are in? The certainty to say it's not a "5-7 year thing" is beyond me. Let's cut the crap: this is already year 3 of the hole. And they didn't even know they were in a hole until last month, and even that's debatable, so there have been zero steps to stop the digging. Hell, they just bought expensive new shovels! Between their mediocre prospect pool, fruitless long-term commitments, dismal current and future pick quantity, and sparse NHL roster, the first thing to do for any smart GM is to buy a comfortable sleeping bag for this hole.

There is a possible path where 3-4 years from now, the Flyers are back on the path to contending. Not there, maybe not even in the same area code as there -- but the path. That requires a helluva lot to go right in short order. It's perhaps more possible this is year 3 of a nearly decade long thing.

Yep. Look at how long it took the Islanders to climb out of the Wang/Milbury hole. We are early on in that process. Would need Bedard and more extraordinary luck to cut this down to a 2-3 year process.

 

[Striiker]

If my career was bet on this franchise, I'd be...no wait, I'd never do something that nutty. But I do kinda get it. He just wants to be happy again, so he'll trot out best case scenarios and cling to the disclaimer.

He can eat shit

 

[VladDrag]

If my career was bet on this franchise, I'd be...no wait, I'd never do something that nutty. But I do kinda get it. He just wants to be happy again, so he'll trot out best case scenarios and cling to the disclaimer.

But Charlie has been out to lunch on his player evaluations as well. I don’t know if he’s just putting that out there or if he actually believes that possibility.

 

[deadhead]

By turn things around do you mean headed in the right direction or on the road to contending? The former, ok. The latter I’m not so sure. Adding top flight 21yo talent isn’t really a thing you can do with any regularity. So you probably need to hit some home runs in the draft and give them time to develop in the NHL.

Let’s say lightning strikes and they get Bedard. That’s still not enough and it’s the single best possible player outcome right now. Hell, I don’t think Bedard + ~60 pt Gauthier makes the latter true in 3 years. They need both the stars and a critical mass of positive incremental gains. Both of those will take time. Briere has his work cut out for him.

What do you mean by on the road to contending?
That they're still a bottom ten team but younger?
Or that they're a playoff team that still needs a couple pieces to be a top 8 team?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

What do you mean by on the road to contending?
That they're still a bottom ten team but younger?
Or that they're a playoff team that still needs a couple pieces to be a top 8 team?

I would say on the road to contending means they have a sustainable core you could see being good enough to win a Cup without depending on 99th percentile Tage Thompson-style outcomes and the cap room to keep them long-term.

Think last offseason’s Devils. Hughes looked like a potential superstar, Hischier and Bratt were legit 1st line quality Forwards. A true 1D in Hamilton plus another very good one in Severson. They just needed to supplement, they had quality and quantity coming, and the additions made sense. Marino was a reasonable bounce back bet. Tatar has been underrated his whole career. Even Palat while overpaid, is actually good.

To me you need both the core and the body of work to inspire that kind of confidence.

But Charlie has been out to lunch on his player evaluations as well. I don’t know if he’s just putting that out there or if he actually believes that possibility.

Oh I disagree with his evaluations more by the year, but I don’t think he’s being dishonest. He’s just bristling at the unrelenting anger out of the fanbase because so much of it ends up directed his way even if it’s not at him. I really do understand it wearing on him.

 

[Striiker]

No. He's a liar.

Never forget.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Charlie is breaking his own brain and ability to evaluate by trying to stay in the good graces of management with childish and fragile egos.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Listened to ASF on Myrterus’ or whatever’s podcast. He still thinks Hayes is gone one or way another before next year whether it’s a trade or buyout. He said Tortorella doesn’t want Hayes on his team & Hayes doesn’t want to play for Tortorella. He made it seem like Tortorella thinks Hayes is a bad influence on the younger players on this team & the “culture” he’s trying to establish going forward. So he doesn’t really a path for Hayes back next even if it’s a buyout.

I love it. f*** both those bozos. And the genius that hired them.

 

[Striiker]

Is he f***ing serious?

 

[Magua]

Is he f***ing serious?

Uh, yeah, I’m trying to think of ways DeAngelo is not bad defensively in ways that piss off HockeyGuys. Because he looks angry all the time and takes frustration penalties? Something something at-e-tude.

I mean this only tangentially to Ghost, could it possibly be that HockeyGuys don’t actually know what good defense means?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Is he f***ing serious?

This is what I mean. He's desperate to justify the bad decisions of the people who keep him fed, and it's destroyed his mind.

 

[DancingPanther]

Uh, yeah, I’m trying to think of ways DeAngelo is not bad defensively in ways that piss off HockeyGuys. Because he looks angry all the time and takes frustration penalties? Something something at-e-tude.

I mean this only tangentially to Ghost, could it possibly be that HockeyGuys don’t actually know what good defense means?

Sounds to me like HockeyGuys don't actually know what good means in the new NHL, which isn't even new anymore- been around for a decade

 

[Magua]

Sounds to me like HockeyGuys don't actually know what good means in the new NHL, which isn't even new anymore- been around for a decade

You defend The Coffin like no one I’ve ever seen. Downright elite.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Uh, yeah, I’m trying to think of ways DeAngelo is not bad defensively in ways that piss off HockeyGuys. Because he looks angry all the time and takes frustration penalties? Something something at-e-tude.

I mean this only tangentially to Ghost, could it possibly be that HockeyGuys don’t actually know what good defense means?

I think that is the actual truth and there is some validity to Charlie’s quote. In the context of the flyers organization, ghost was this aberration they didn’t understand. Instead of playing to his strengths they did what they’ve don’t to many others—exposed his few weaknesses. Just about every player has them. The flyers are piss poor at minimizing them.

 

[DancingPanther]

You defend The Coffin like no one I’ve ever seen. Downright elite.

I'll show you my heat map bb

 

[Fire Tortorella]

I think Charlie is more so saying he "doesn't disagree" to the last point of that other quote about not being "let loose". That and the section about being "bad defensively in ways that makes Hockey Guys mad" is basically what he said in the latest BSH podcast.

The "Hockey Guys" are willing to live with TDA's mistakes of just wandering around and blowing assignments than Ghosts more "physical mistakes" in the corners/down low, especially since Ghost didn't "rough it up in the corners" like TDA tries to do. We see the same consistency with Risto.

And he mentioned that it didn't make sense, but was what he thought the organizational thought was.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I mean this only tangentially to Ghost, could it possibly be that HockeyGuys don’t actually know what good defense means?

The biggest thing traditional hockey thinking got wrong was linking specific defensive skills with overall defensive effectiveness.

You know this is one of my pet peeves. If you can't tell me what a player does with an attribute, you don't have a complete thought yet. It's so much easier to measure offense that the other end was allowed to skate on platitudes.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

I mean this only tangentially to Ghost, could it possibly be that HockeyGuys don’t actually know what good defense means?

Are YOU a HockeyGuy? How would YOU know what good defense means?

-Some HF poster who just got back from vacation

 

[Striiker]

You know this is one of my pet peeves. If you can't tell me what a player does with an attribute, you don't have a complete thought yet.

Eats minutes. Plays big.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Eats minutes. Plays big.

Eats minutes has got to be the worst one. I promise you I can exist for 24 Minutes on demand. Please give me the Gudbranson deal.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Eats minutes has got to be the worst one. I promise you I can exist for 24 Minutes on demand. Please give me the Gudbranson deal.

When that's the first thing people bring up in support of a player, it's bad. Real bad.

Endurance is a great attribute across all sports, but the way it's lauded in hockey is remarkable.