2022/23 Roster Thread XVI: Suite 16, Room for Improvement

[DancingPanther]

“Respectable.”

The road to 55

 

[Flyerfan4life]

everything about this Org. is a tirefire..

 

[Don Nachbaur 26]

He looks like he's morphing into Clarke.

Not sure who said it, but I will forever, from this day forward, refer to him as
Charles "Entertainment" Fletcher or "Cuck" to his fellow GM's

 

[Beef Invictus]

Meh, people here exaggerate. He's your basic 4th line forechecker, not much in the way of offensive skill, but physical on the forecheck and hasn't been a black hole defensively.

Overpriced, if he was on a 1 or 2yr/$1M deal no one would be complaining

Basic 4th line forechecker? That's hilarious. "Basic" would be a humongous upgrade. And since when can he even be described as a forechecker? He's yet another Fletcher addition who is in the top-3 for worst offensive void in the league. It's stunning that he achieves this annually. There are only so many players who can be so brutally ineffective and Fletcher always finds them and brings them in.

The gap between Deslauriers and "basic 4th line forechecker" is possibly more massive than the gap between an average player and McDavid. that's really not an exaggeration. If he were on a one year deal, there should be complaining because he's that bad. It's never excusable to play someone this worthless.

The only exaggerating here is you. Labelling this guy as a basic stock 4th liner is one hell of an overrate. @Bryanbryoil for some useful context, deady here tends to defend every single move Flyers management makes.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, uh, question. Can he un-find this home? Worst PP in xGF/60; 2nd worst in GF/60. Weird personnel, no discernible scheme. I'll pass on this dude as our offensive guru for a coach who doesn't do anything offensively.

Turns out him tanking SJ's PP is relevant after all.

 

[Striiker]

He’s bad at literally everything

 

[Beef Invictus]

He’s bad at literally everything

"Tortorella would never block Zamula with someone like Braun or Risto, he doesn't care about contract"

 

[deadhead]

Zamula is blocking Zamula. He's been meh all season, both in Philly and LHV.
When you get outplayed by Ginning . . .
He's only 22, but so is Ginning, I want to see Zamula show up in LHV before I worry about him being blocked.
+/- has limited value, but for Ginning to be +12 in 26 games when the next best D-man is +3 does raise eyebrows.
Zamula is -5 in 10 games with 0 ES points.

Why are Braun/Seeler alternating at the 6th D-man spot?
Last 26 games:
Braun, xGF 52.52%, xGFrel +5.94, HDCF 51.45%
Seeler, xGF 50.38%, xGFrel +4.69, HDCF 55.63%
Now some of that is do to judicious use, Seeler plays limited minutes and strictly on the 3rd pair.

Given the struggles of Provorov, TDA and Risto, the last thing they need is to ask a mediocre prospect to shelter them.
TDA is finding his legs offensively, but Torts is trying to find a partner who'll cover for him defensively.
Same with Risto. He's never going to live up to his contract, but his xGFrel +1.36 over that stretch is solid for a 3rd pair D-man.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Zamula is blocking Zamula. He's been meh all season, both in Philly and LHV.
When you get outplayed by Ginning . . .
He's only 22, but so is Ginning, I want to see Zamula show up in LHV before I worry about him being blocked.
+/- has limited value, but for Ginning to be +12 in 26 games when the next best D-man is +3 does raise eyebrows.
Zamula is -5 in 10 games with 0 ES points.

Why are Braun/Seeler alternating at the 6th D-man spot?
Last 26 games:
Braun, xGF 52.52%, xGFrel +5.94, HDCF 51.45%
Seeler, xGF 50.38%, xGFrel +4.69, HDCF 55.63%
Now some of that is do to judicious use, Seeler plays limited minutes and strictly on the 3rd pair.

Given the struggles of Provorov, TDA and Risto, the last thing they need is to ask a mediocre prospect to shelter them.
TDA is finding his legs offensively, but Torts is trying to find a partner who'll cover for him defensively.
Same with Risto. He's never going to live up to his contract, but his xGFrel +1.36 over that stretch is solid for a 3rd pair D-man.

What is this even supposed to mean. Ginning must have shown something had some good qualities to get drafted as high as he did. Meanwhile Zamula got passed over how many times? Maybe Zamula is just an another prospect overrated by FLyers fans. Do not get the Ginning hate. Imagine if he was a Chuck pick then the hate would be off the charts.

TK for Lafrenierre as base for a deal. Does either team consider it?

​

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Meh, people here exaggerate. He's your basic 4th line forechecker, not much in the way of offensive skill, but physical on the forecheck and hasn't been a black hole defensively.

Overpriced, if he was on a 1 or 2yr/$1M deal no one would be complaining

Ask yourself this question. Take the top say 8 legit cup contending teams. Is he cracking any of their lineus in the top 12? If so what teams do you think he does.

Thing is he isnt on a 1 year deal. The guy you always defend gave him 4 fn years. So that comment is moot.

 

[flyersnorth]

“Respectable.”

Yet somehow there are still like six teams below the Flyers.

This team can’t even suck properly.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Yet somehow there are still like six teams below the Flyers.

This team can’t even suck properly.

The writing was on the wall early that they had a legit chance at Bedard if they were bad enough.

Yet we are Sanheim extended, TK some sort of untouchable core piece, and Provorov still on the team.

I don’t understand how the legit chance at a generational player, with the chance to impact a team for 15yrs isn’t somehow more important. You’d think the business, and marketing side of things would make enough noise themselves.

It’s a huge failure in overall execution, and planning that’s being ignored. They are still within range of improving those odds but humming along status quo.

Because somehow those players listed above are more important. Lunacy.

 

[deadhead]

Ask yourself this question. Take the top say 8 legit cup contending teams. Is he cracking any of their lineus in the top 12? If so what teams do you think he does.

Thing is he isnt on a 1 year deal. The guy you always defend gave him 4 fn years. So that comment is moot.

I "don't always defend him," I just don't engage in hyperbolic criticism.

Deslauriers was a bad deal, I said so at the time, it's just not a "sink the franchise" deal, more an irritation for a new GM, at worst you bury him at $500K a year (and hope he hates the AHL and will work out a buyout).

Even Risto isn't a disaster, the assets were a gross overpay, the contract is too much, but a veteran 3rd pair D-man might cost $2M, so he's going to be a net $3M cost for a couple years before you can move him. But it's not going to bury the franchise.

The problem with both Hextall and Fletcher is the paucity of good moves, Weise, JVR (a wash overall), Voracek extension, Filppula, Hayes, Risto. In almost 9 years, where is the waiver wire steal, the low cost signing that exceeded expectations, etc.

The writing was on the wall early that they had a legit chance at Bedard if they were bad enough.

Yet we are Sanheim extended, TK some sort of untouchable core piece, and Provorov still on the team.

I don’t understand how the legit chance at a generational player, with the chance to impact a team for 15yrs isn’t somehow more important. You’d think the business, and marketing side of things would make enough noise themselves.

It’s a huge failure in overall execution, and planning that’s being ignored. They are still within range of improving those odds but humming along status quo.

Because somehow those players listed above are more important. Lunacy.

Even if they totally tank, they only have a 20% shot. And it's hard to totally tank, look at Arizona. They tried and failed.

 

[TCTC]

Yet somehow there are still like six teams below the Flyers.

This team can’t even suck properly.

Chicago is probably be the most shameless tank attempt since Buffalo. And the Ducks are a joke. Zegras has to be the most overhyped player in the league right now.
There was no way we outtank these two teams.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I "don't always defend him," I just don't engage in hyperbolic criticism.

Deslauriers was a bad deal, I said so at the time, it's just not a "sink the franchise" deal, more an irritation for a new GM, at worst you bury him at $500K a year (and hope he hates the AHL and will work out a buyout).

Even Risto isn't a disaster, the assets were a gross overpay, the contract is too much, but a veteran 3rd pair D-man might cost $2M, so he's going to be a net $3M cost for a couple years before you can move him. But it's not going to bury the franchise.

The problem with both Hextall and Fletcher is the paucity of good moves, Weise, JVR (a wash overall), Voracek extension, Filppula, Hayes, Risto. In almost 9 years, where is the waiver wire steal, the low cost signing that exceeded expectations, etc.


Even if they totally tank, they only have a 20% shot. And it's hard to totally tank, look at Arizona. They tried and failed.

Locking up a $2m player for 5 years at almost triple his value, and bleeding two highly valuable picks in the process is the definition of a disaster

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I "don't always defend him," I just don't engage in hyperbolic criticism.

Deslauriers was a bad deal, I said so at the time, it's just not a "sink the franchise" deal, more an irritation for a new GM, at worst you bury him at $500K a year (and hope he hates the AHL and will work out a buyout).

Even Risto isn't a disaster, the assets were a gross overpay, the contract is too much, but a veteran 3rd pair D-man might cost $2M, so he's going to be a net $3M cost for a couple years before you can move him. But it's not going to bury the franchise.

The problem with both Hextall and Fletcher is the paucity of good moves, Weise, JVR (a wash overall), Voracek extension, Filppula, Hayes, Risto. In almost 9 years, where is the waiver wire steal, the low cost signing that exceeded expectations, etc.


Even if they totally tank, they only have a 20% shot. And it's hard to totally tank, look at Arizona. They tried and failed.

When your MO as a GM is bad deal after bad deal that is a huge problem as they all add up. How do you rationalize all these bad moves do not hurt? They point isn't that they can bury him, the point is it was a bad move. Shouldn't have to come to the decision to bury him.

Risto is a 100% fn disaster. End of story. It does bury the franchise when you are wasting 5 million for the next 6 years. What they gave up for him sets them back. His contract sets them back. Do deny that is just so strange to me.

Hextall was at best an average GM. Chuck is way worse. This mess is all on Chuck. The blaming Hextall has long since expired.

You need to put yourself in the best position possible to get the highest pick possible.

 

[Striiker]

"Tortorella would never block Zamula with someone like Braun or Risto, he doesn't care about contract"

Even forgetting the superior youth, we were told that if someone doesn’t perform Torts would bench them and hold them accountable.

So that means at least one of two things are unarguably true:

Either

1) Torts is a hypocrite and a liar

Or

2) Torts thinks Risto is good

Spoiler: Answer?

Both are true.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Zamula is blocking Zamula. He's been meh all season, both in Philly and LHV.
When you get outplayed by Ginning . . .
He's only 22, but so is Ginning, I want to see Zamula show up in LHV before I worry about him being blocked.
+/- has limited value, but for Ginning to be +12 in 26 games when the next best D-man is +3 does raise eyebrows.
Zamula is -5 in 10 games with 0 ES points.

Why are Braun/Seeler alternating at the 6th D-man spot?
Last 26 games:
Braun, xGF 52.52%, xGFrel +5.94, HDCF 51.45%
Seeler, xGF 50.38%, xGFrel +4.69, HDCF 55.63%
Now some of that is do to judicious use, Seeler plays limited minutes and strictly on the 3rd pair.

Given the struggles of Provorov, TDA and Risto, the last thing they need is to ask a mediocre prospect to shelter them.
TDA is finding his legs offensively, but Torts is trying to find a partner who'll cover for him defensively.
Same with Risto. He's never going to live up to his contract, but his xGFrel +1.36 over that stretch is solid for a 3rd pair D-man.

When a team's handling of a player turns them from a surefire NHLer (per your own depiction) to a minor leaguer, that's terrible development. This is the situation you have depicted.

At some point you need to face that the team hasn't done anything you said they would and you need to stop defending and justifying that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Even forgetting the superior youth, we were told that if someone doesn’t perform Torts would bench them and hold them accountable.

So that means at least one of two things are unarguably true:

Either

1) Torts is a hypocrite and a liar

Or

2) Torts thinks Risto is good

Spoiler: Answer?

Both are true.

Or 3) someone was very wrong

 

[Beef Invictus]

I "don't always defend him," I just don't engage in hyperbolic criticism.

Deslauriers was a bad deal, I said so at the time, it's just not a "sink the franchise" deal, more an irritation for a new GM, at worst you bury him at $500K a year (and hope he hates the AHL and will work out a buyout).

Even Risto isn't a disaster, the assets were a gross overpay, the contract is too much, but a veteran 3rd pair D-man might cost $2M, so he's going to be a net $3M cost for a couple years before you can move him. But it's not going to bury the franchise.

The problem with both Hextall and Fletcher is the paucity of good moves, Weise, JVR (a wash overall), Voracek extension, Filppula, Hayes, Risto. In almost 9 years, where is the waiver wire steal, the low cost signing that exceeded expectations, etc.


Even if they totally tank, they only have a 20% shot. And it's hard to totally tank, look at Arizona. They tried and failed.

The criticism isn't hyperbolic though. Claiming it is, is a defense of management. And you apply this "hyperbole" label to all criticism.

You claim you don't defend everything and in the same sentence, defend everything at a stroke.

 

[Striiker]

Or 3) someone was very wrong

It’s not a coincidence that every single Torts defense/praise that we saw over the summer on here and Twitter has turned out to be a proven lie.

 

[deadhead]

When your MO as a GM is bad deal after bad deal that is a huge problem as they all add up. How do you rationalize all these bad moves do not hurt? They point isn't that they can bury him, the point is it was a bad move. Shouldn't have to come to the decision to bury him.

Risto is a 100% fn disaster. End of story. It does bury the franchise when you are wasting 5 million for the next 6 years. What they gave up for him sets them back. His contract sets them back. Do deny that is just so strange to me.

Hextall was at best an average GM. Chuck is way worse. This mess is all on Chuck. The blaming Hextall has long since expired.

You need to put yourself in the best position possible to get the highest pick possible.

Risto is not a disaster, since they're rebuilding, and will be shedding salary, his cap hit will have little impact on future moves.
It's a bad move, but there are worse moves that have been made.

The Flyers can be turned around quickly by the right GM, they have a decent core of talent, they need to add a couple top players, Gauthier may be one, they should get a top ten, maybe top five pick this summer, with luck, maybe even a 1st for JVR. Clear out Hayes this summer, Risto next summer (only 3 years left on his deal), only Couts and Atkinson will be left (and Atkinson gone the following summer. So a lot of salary and age will be gone by 2025-26.

Provorov and Laughton are tradeable assets, TDA will either step up or be gone in another year. Deslauriers will be buried or shipped out.

The only long term deals are Couts and Sanheim. After this season:
Risto (4), Hayes (3), Laughton (3), Atkinson (2), Provorov (2), TDA (1).

 

[Danko]

some good flyers stuff in the 32 thoughts podcast from friedman today.

flyers have seen some things attendence, revenue etc... that things are not resonating with the fanbase and that always make your decision for you

 

[Curufinwe]

Risto is not a disaster, since they're rebuilding, and will be shedding salary, his cap hit will have little impact on future moves.
It's a bad move, but there are worse moves that have been made.

They're not rebuilding and it is a disaster. 5 x $5.1m for 1 point in 29 games playing bad defense as a #5.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Risto is not a disaster, since they're rebuilding, and will be shedding salary, his cap hit will have little impact on future moves.
It's a bad move, but there are worse moves that have been made.

The Flyers can be turned around quickly by the right GM, they have a decent core of talent, they need to add a couple top players, Gauthier may be one, they should get a top ten, maybe top five pick this summer, with luck, maybe even a 1st for JVR. Clear out Hayes this summer, Risto next summer (only 3 years left on his deal), only Couts and Atkinson will be left (and Atkinson gone the following summer. So a lot of salary and age will be gone by 2025-26.

Provorov and Laughton are tradeable assets, TDA will either step up or be gone in another year. Deslauriers will be buried or shipped out.

The only long term deals are Couts and Sanheim. After this season:
Risto (4), Hayes (3), Laughton (3), Atkinson (2), Provorov (2), TDA (1).

It’s not that any one of these positions is crazy. They just can’t co-exist. Ok, the constant assurances they’ll bury a 4 year UFA contract is nuts, but I’ve given up on ever winning that one.

They can be turned around quickly, but they’re also locked in for at least 2 years beyond this one. One of those thoughts has to go. We’re not even talking about positive value contracts in at least half of those cases.

5+ in cap space would fetch a 1st these days and you’ve written Risto off as not impacting future moves while simultaneously hoping JVR returns one as reason for hope. It’s a 3rd major axis on which the Risto contract is a disaster. Hell, the contract is so long and they’re so thoroughly screwed that you might have been able to sell that cap space twice by the time they need it.