Proposal: Your LHD for Trouba

[mytduxfan*]

Been through this before. How do you even justify one > when Trouba's CF% over the last two years is only slightly worse than Lindholm's, and his regular playing partner is the team's biggest anchor, Mark Stuart.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...nse&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

I've heard it said that Lindholm plays against tougher opponents, but they have similar OppCF% so that isn't the case. I've heard it said that there's a big difference in offensive vs defensive zone faceoffs, but both have similar numbers there. So tell me again, how do you get >>>?

At #15 & #32 among D-men in the league, they are both very good young D-men & you'd be hard pressed to call one > than the other.

Not hard pressed at all. Pretty much everyone, including some WPG fans, has said that Lindholm is better. I don't subscribe to the notion that you judge a player using a stat sheet only. However, even those who do would be really hard pressed not to see that Lindholm is >>> Trouba. Higher QoC, better shot suppressions stats, better overall possession stats, more points in every single season so far, more goals last season, higher PPG, the list goes on.

 

[CaptainChef]

Can we just accept that if HFBoards was in charge, Trouba would never get traded. Jets fans seem to think he's some kind of demi-god, when he's far from even being a top pairing d-man.

I'm going to give you that he has among the best Corsi stats in the NHL over the past two years (actually 32nd among 200 or so D-men that have played 1000 mins). And that's playing regularly with a guy who doesn't even deserve to be playing in the NHL -- Mark Stuart.

Now what stats do you have to suggest he doesn't come close to being a top pairing D-man?

 

[GoJetsGo55]

I honestly think Gardiner for him is a fair offer. Both #3D, one is a smooth skating PMD, the other a solid defensive D. Fits a need for the Jets, for the leafs it sucks to lose Gardiner, especially after his last year where he looked like top pairing D at times, but we have the LD depth to replace him.

Edit: Plus his contract favors the Jets after Trouba gets at least 2M more... Not sure I do it thinking it over now.

Awwww but I wanted to say no before you withdrew the offer

 

[McSuper]

Nurse
Yakupov

for

Trouba

As an Oiler fan this is laughable bad for the Jets but also could blow up in the oilers face unless we know his contract demands .

RHD Trouba >>> LHD Prospect Nurse . Yakupov does nothing to make up the difference when Winnipeg does not need a forward .

The only way Nurse is worth Trouba is if he is demand 7 million + contract long term . He is a very good young D but he is not worth north of 7 million .

One other thing lets make this clear . I don't want to trade Nurse but wanting to keep him does not blind me to the fact Trouba has much more value . I also have not set limits on Nurse as some fans have base on his play last year . The kid is a beast . He improved by leaps and bounds ever year he was in the OHL . He was thru to the wolves last year because of injuries . He should have had a developmental year in the AHL last year with a chance to make the team this year in a shelter roll . I hate when people say he is lacking hockey IQ . Show me how you measure that ? Making rookie mistakes because you are trying to do too much is nothing new .

 

[mytduxfan*]

I'm going to give you that he has among the best Corsi stats in the NHL over the past two years (actually 32nd among 200 or so D-men that have played 1000 mins). And that's playing regularly with a guy who doesn't even deserve to be playing in the NHL -- Mark Stuart.

Now what stats do you have to suggest he doesn't come close to being a top pairing D-man?

All of them. You can't judge a player based on a stat sheet. If you watch Trouba without the WPG-tinted glasses on, it's pretty apparent he's more of a #3-4 then a #1-2, regardless of who he's playing with.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

what's the point? Trouba goes from Winnipeg that has Buff and Myers on the right side, to Columbus that has Jones and Savard. And now Columbus lacks LHD

Not exactly, Murray and Werenski are the future on the left side, and with Trouba's ability to spot in on his off-hand side it would allow Werenski to be eased into the league on the third pair.

Murray-Jones
Trouba-Savard
Werenski-Prout

 

[irunthepeg]

All of them. You can't judge a player based on a stat sheet. If you watch Trouba without the WPG-tinted glasses on, it's pretty apparent he's more of a #3-4 then a #1-2, regardless of who he's playing with.

So you don't base players on analytics at all?

 

[vipernsx]

Been through this before. How do you even justify one > when Trouba's CF% over the last two years is only slightly worse than Lindholm's, and his regular playing partner is the team's biggest anchor, Mark Stuart.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...nse&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

I've heard it said that Lindholm plays against tougher opponents, but they have similar OppCF% so that isn't the case. I've heard it said that there's a big difference in offensive vs defensive zone faceoffs, but both have similar numbers there. So tell me again, how do you get >>>?

At #15 & #32 among D-men in the league, they are both very good young D-men & you'd be hard pressed to call one > than the other.

I agree that both Lindholm and Trouba are elite young blueliners who play excellent in their own end and have some offensive ability.

I'm also a fan of objective stats, though advanced stats struggle the most with evaluating blueliners, particularly the defensive aspect to their game.

 

[Snowman]

So you don't base players on analytics at all?

I don't think he likes to let pesky things like measurable stats mess a up good argument. It's easier to just make stuff up and pass it off as the "eye test" or whatever.

 

[Jyrki Lumme]

I'm going to give you that he has among the best Corsi stats in the NHL over the past two years (actually 32nd among 200 or so D-men that have played 1000 mins). And that's playing regularly with a guy who doesn't even deserve to be playing in the NHL -- Mark Stuart.

Now what stats do you have to suggest he doesn't come close to being a top pairing D-man?

The same ones that I would use to say Jake Gardiner isn't a top pairing d-man when he is quite a bit better than Trouba in terms of possesion and production, all while playing similar minutes.

 

[Hunter368]

I honestly think Gardiner for him is a fair offer. Both #3D, one is a smooth skating PMD, the other a solid defensive D. Fits a need for the Jets, for the leafs it sucks to lose Gardiner, especially after his last year where he looked like top pairing D at times, but we have the LD depth to replace him.

Edit: Plus his contract favors the Jets after Trouba gets at least 2M more... Not sure I do it thinking it over now.

We understand your opinion, which you have a right to. Just like most Jets fans have a right to believe Gardner would be low on the list we wanted as a return for Trouba, especially 1 for 1 which sounds like what you mean.

 

[lindholmie]

theodore+fowler+jacob larsson


just restock you on the left hand

 

[Kamiccolo]

I don't think he likes to let pesky things like measurable stats mess a up good argument. It's easier to just make stuff up and pass it off as the "eye test" or whatever.

So you don't base players on analytics at all?

You say this, yet shoot down Gardiner who blows Trouba's advanced stats out of the water

 

[Viqsi]

Not exactly, Murray and Werenski are the future on the left side, and with Trouba's ability to spot in on his off-hand side it would allow Werenski to be eased into the league on the third pair.

Murray-Jones
Trouba-Savard
Werenski-Prout

And now we're losing one of Trouba or Savard in the expansion draft.

 

[irunthepeg]

You say this, yet shoot down Gardiner who blows Trouba's advanced stats out of the water

Post them then. Post the HERO comparisons or whatever you've looked at.

 

[CaptainChef]

Not hard pressed at all. Pretty much everyone, including some WPG fans, has said that Lindholm is better. I don't subscribe to the notion that you judge a player using a stat sheet only. However, even those who do would be really hard pressed not to see that Lindholm is >>> Trouba. Higher QoC, better shot suppressions stats, better overall possession stats, more points in every single season so far, more goals last season, higher PPG, the list goes on.

Awe, so if the stats don't fit the argument you simply make up stuff. or selectively grab at anything to prove your point.

Like one has a higher QoC than the other when they are identical
Better shot suppression stats - yes, CA marginally better, but Trouba has the better CF
Better overall - yep, but very little difference between 15th best and 32nd best in the league
more points in every season simply because Lindholm spends more time on the PP
more goals last season - whoopee ding; they are identical over the last three years in spite of Lindholm getting >20% of his on the PP
higher PPG - that's a real whoopee dinger

Sure see lots to make a >>> there lol

All of them. You can't judge a player based on a stat sheet. If you watch Trouba without the WPG-tinted glasses on, it's pretty apparent he's more of a #3-4 then a #1-2, regardless of who he's playing with.

Awe, here it comes, if the stats sheet doesn't support your argument you revert to feelings and public opinion to make your case. Good one.
Someone's got rose-coloured glasses here & it isn't me.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

And now we're losing one of Trouba or Savard in the expansion draft.

That's not exactly for certain, side deals can be made so that whoever is left unprotected is not selected.

Also, one could be moved/and or packaged to upgrade our C depth.

 

[CaptainChef]

The same ones that I would use to say Jake Gardiner isn't a top pairing d-man when he is quite a bit better than Trouba in terms of possesion and production, all while playing similar minutes.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...000&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Trouba - 32nd best CF% in league over last two years at 53.0

Gardiner - 55th at 51.7

Reilly - 136th at 49.0 (ouch)

 

[Captain Controversy]

Andre Sekera for Trouba is Fair if Trouba's demands are above 6 million a year.
Sekera puts up points and is steady. Trouba had a down year which dings his value just a little.

 

[Jyrki Lumme]

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...000&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Trouba - 32nd best CF% in league over last two years at 53.0

Gardiner - 55th at 51.7

Reilly - 136th at 49.0 (ouch)

Oh haha, you're not even using relative stats. That's even better.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Post them then. Post the HERO comparisons or whatever you've looked at.

 

[Paradise*]

Andre Sekera for Trouba is Fair if Trouba's demands are above 6 million a year.
Sekera puts up points and is steady. Trouba had a down year which dings his value just a little.

It's not even close to fair. Trouba could get 8+mil and it still wouldn't be close. Sekera isn't wanted as a return for Trouba IMO.

 

[Viqsi]

That's not exactly for certain, side deals can be made so that whoever is left unprotected is not selected.

Also, one could be moved/and or packaged to upgrade our C depth.

...which does ****-all for us, because our "C depth" already consists of plenty of players of the sort we could get by moving such guys. We need a top scoring center, and those guys aren't going to be available for a Trouba and certainly not for a Savard.

And all those "side deals" do is make the cost of acquiring Trouba more expensive.

And of course, this all assumes that Winnipeg has any interest in Jack Johnson and Gabe Carlsson to begin with.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Post them then. Post the HERO comparisons or whatever you've looked at.

Rebuttal?

 

[Ola]

You say "a very solid D" but every time I see a Rangers fan posting about Staal, it's with complete and utter disdain for him.

Well, you can't listen to what some people are saying...

Like of the people you are referring to, how many have ever stood on a pair of skates?

Just watch Marc Staal play, he is very solid. He is every bit as solid now as the guy who was a borderline candidate for the Canadian OG team just a few years ago. If Staal played for like Dallas, Colorado or a team like that, needing stability on the blueline and not sharing a left side with McD and Yandle, I would bet my right arm that Staal would be seen as a very very solid top 4 D in this league.

And I mean, people have such a darn short memory. Staal has played what 80 play-off games the last 4 years or whatever and always gone up against the absolute toughest match-ups there is, AO, Crosby, Malkin, and so forth and so forth. He has been uber-solid in the POs. Just look at other POs series, take just about any random series. Why is one team loosing? Yeah, so often its because their defense starts to cave in. You can throw anything at Staal, he can handle it. Not many kids without a history in the game can understand that. But any coach will, or GM too for that matter. Someone like Staal would never give a kid at this place "bragging rights", oh look, we got this super piece check the hero-charts!!! Take say a D like Carl Klingberg, I am a Swede, I love him. But right now, he couldn't play on a blue-line for a team going deep into the POs. He isn't there defensively, hands down. Maybe next season. Maybe it will take a few years to pin everything down. Or he never will, who knows. But who could tell that looking at these charts in the pissing contests?

My trade proposal was "crazy" no doubt. Its not happening, stuff like that never happens. But I am just saying, a Marc Staal at 50% retained is definitely valuable in this league and an offer of Kreider, Staal 50% retained and 2017 1st is definitely a good offer. Like I said, I don't expect Trouba to be traded and if he is, I expect it to be for someone like Jonas Brodin or Hampus Lindholm. But just saying...