Proposal: Would you trade Stutzle for Matthews?

[blundluntman]

I didn't even realize Matthews was having an "off" year.
But skimming the thread, I think the Matthews vs Stutzle debate is pretty unanimously answered well. Head to head, Matthews. Real life situation, Stutzle.

As for trolling for likes/attention, Methot I find is actually hilarious and actually rather well spoken compared to the average Canadian. Does he need any more attention if he's already on TSN? I think he might be a bit sadistic though becaues he really knows how to get the "leafs fanboys" up in arms. And then he just kind of f***s off after creating the chaos lol

You'd be surprised. Some people acted like I was out of my mind for not being sure that Stutzle would end up better than the 60 goal scoring hart winner. As far as contracts tho, I can agree Stutzle is more appealing if you're a GM. But there were definitely people like methot in this thread trying to argue with me lol

 

[Jerkbait]

Who's Berard? We drafted him in the 90s, didn't think he was still playing but good for him, the #1OA finally panned out.

Also with Tage... agreed he should be a rocket contender for years to come but would you have said the same thing 4 years ago when he was 21 and had 7 goals for the Sabres? No, you wouldn't have... and THAT is a guarantee.

The point is that young players the same age as Stutzle tend to improve more often than not. So if Tage is in that conversation now, Stutzle could very well be there 4-5 years from now, considering he will very likely be one of 10 players (TEN!!) players since the lockout to pot 40 in a season by 21 (Jack Hughes should do it this year too). Not sure how on Earth you can guarantee he has no chance, you're kinda making yourself look a little dumb.

Finally, Dubas doesn't need to consider a trade for Matthews if he doesn't want to stay there. He could be gone for absolutely nothing in 15 months.

You made zero point except reassuring yourself the of what I said. You can throw huges in there as well who will probably outpace tim. This isn't hard . AM34 will likely win another rocket, there is nothing to suggest he won't. Mcdavid is on anther level and leon isn't fsr behind. That's 3 candidates who are ahead.
.then toss in Tage, DP etc and yeah that new kid LOL...

Yes its a guarantee, you don't need magic just common sense of hockey knowledge

 

[SensontheRush]

I honestly cannot believe this is an actual thread LMAO. This is going to age just as the Marner and Tkachuk debates.

Let it go Sens fans, your star players aren't even good enough to get you into the playoffs.

If you can't believe it, maybe you need to check out the poll results

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Learn to fact check. It destroys your credibility.

Fair enough he won two, my bad. The point isn't whether AM is a stud, he is, the point is what leafs fans are peddling that TS will never come close to AM, which is pretty rich considering how well TS is playing and developing.

Matthews is the back to back Rocket winner and finished 1 goal off of shared winners in 2019-2020.

Only Ovechkin has more goals than Matthew since 2016-17 (Matthews rookie year). Definitely dumb of some people to consider Matthews a Rocket contender each year. Your username seems more factually accurate than your opinions.

View attachment 673436

Cool, he has won two, doesn't change my point, but go ahead attack my name some more.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Thats correct as long as AM34, McDavid, Berard, DP, and Thompson are playing Tim will not win a rocket...its not a prediction its a guarantee. We won't talk about the hart cause that's silly
Now for the next 4 years dubas inst considering any trade for Matthews unless the players name is Cale or conner..
Just ask him

At 21 he is on pace for 43 goals, but no chance in hell that ever improves right? No way he gets say 50? or even maybe 60, no he's topped out at 21 years old. AM won a Rocket trophy with 41 goals, but a guy on pace for 43 can't match him........ Takes like this make me wonder whether people understand hockey, like at all.

4 years, where does that number come from? He is signed for this season and next. If he is signed of course you don't trade him, he's your best player. If he wants out, there is absolutely zero chance in hell you get the return you think and that's a guarantee.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

This will go down as another HF all time classic thread.

People just can’t help themselves. Get as many shots in as you can now while he has his first down season playing through a hand injury.

You all don't seem to get that this has nothing to do with skill level as much as it has to do with contract. AM is the better player now, one of the best players in the league. No doubt.

His next contract is gonna be astronomical though, and why wouldn't it be? In a cap world that's a problem, hockey isn't basketball, you can't build around one player and especially if that one player is making 14 or 15 million dollars a year.

 

[TkachukNorris79]

You made zero point except reassuring yourself the of what I said.

I guess you missed the part about how Tage was probably 300th on your future Rocket list back when he was 21 and 4 years later he's in your Top 5. 21 year old players only get better, a first grader could grasp that concept but you can't seem to.

Here's a question for the smart fans out there... What is the potential Matthews contract number where Stützle out-values him? There's still a chance Matthews gets $14-15M out of the Leafs in a couple years, depending on the cap increases and other contracts.

Imagine paying one player $14-15M for 60 goals and 50 assists (maybe), when Ottawa will have Stützle AND Tkachuk for about $16.5M and will get 75 goals and 95 assist together. And that's based on their numbers this year at 21 and 23 respectively.

 

[Golden_Jet]

So you can see why Leaf fans aren't taking these comparisons seriously.

certainly seems like you are.

 

[ninetyeight]

Age, contracts and (blind?) believe in potential ceiling, make people choose Stutzle. How much difference does 4 years make and how close to Matthews' level can Stutzle get?

But I must say Matthews is definitely getting underrated this year after a "down season" (he's still close to 40goals pace and ppg++ ffs). He's getting a bit of that EKarlsson treatment. In the eyes of hfboards posters one guy's trajectory is down and the other one's up. But every player will have dips in production, and Stutzle will as well.

The poll result doesn't surprise me one bit, but once Matthews signs an extension and has a bounce back 50+ goals year, the results might look different. While Stutzle can definitely score 50+goals, I think it's way more likely that Matthews will do it again and probably more than once.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

You made zero point except reassuring yourself the of what I said. You can throw huges in there as well who will probably outpace tim. This isn't hard . AM34 will likely win another rocket, there is nothing to suggest he won't. Mcdavid is on anther level and leon isn't fsr behind. That's 3 candidates who are ahead.
.then toss in Tage, DP etc and yeah that new kid LOL...

Yes its a guarantee, you don't need magic just common sense of hockey knowledge

Tage at 21 had 12 points in 65 NHL games, LD at 21 had 77 points in 82 games, even Matthews at 21 at 37 goals, it's almost as if development is a thing and your comparisons lack context, oh and you don't have a leg to stand on with your baseless argument.

 

[LokiDog]

Age, contracts and (blind?) believe in potential ceiling, make people choose Stutzle. How much difference does 4 years make and how close to Matthews' level can Stutzle get?

But I must say Matthews is definitely getting underrated this year after a "down season" (he's still close to 40goals pace and ppg++ ffs). He's getting a bit of that EKarlsson treatment. In the eyes of hfboards posters one guy's trajectory is down and the other one's up. But every player will have dips in production, and Stutzle will as well.

The poll result doesn't surprise me one bit, but once Matthews signs an extension and has a bounce back 50+ goals year, the results might look different. While Stutzle can definitely score 50+goals, I think it's way more likely that Matthews will do it again and probably more than once.

I don’t think it’s really about people underrating Matthews or not expecting him to bounce back to 50+ goals next year.

Matthews already has an 11.6M cap hit. He has one year left on his deal. His next contract is likely going to be 12.5-14M and will START at age 27 and likely run until 34-35. Maybe he ages like Ovie (health so far doesn’t seem likely, comparatively) but a 12-14M cap hit for 32, 33, 34 years old isn’t that appealing. On the flip side, Stutzle’s extension kicks in next year. He will turn 22 and it will take him just up to age 30, at 8.3M.

If Matthews averages 56 goals and 50 assists for 106 points until age 30 and Stutzle averages 42 goals and 50 assists until 30, you get 8 years of 92 points from Stutzle for 8.3M and you get 3-4 years of 106 points from Matthews for 12-14M.

No one is saying Stutzle is better. There’s other factors that dictate you wouldn’t trade him for Matthews at this point in their careers. It’s sort of simple.

 

[dixie]

How about Swayman for Batherson.?

 

[Jerkbait]

At 21 he is on pace for 43 goals, but no chance in hell that ever improves right? No way he gets say 50? or even maybe 60, no he's topped out at 21 years old. AM won a Rocket trophy with 41 goals, but a guy on pace for 43 can't match him........ Takes like this make me wonder whether people understand hockey, like at all.

4 years, where does that number come from? He is signed for this season and next. If he is signed of course you don't trade him, he's your best player. If he wants out, there is absolutely zero chance in hell you get the return you think and that's a guarantee.

What don't you get ...50 isn't going to win you anything with the talent right now ...zip ...

No hart no rocket and still be a lower value..

This isn't hard

 

[Jerkbait]

I guess you missed the part about how Tage was probably 300th on your future Rocket list back when he was 21 and 4 years later he's in your Top 5. 21 year old players only get better, a first grader could grasp that concept but you can't seem to.

Here's a question for the smart fans out there... What is the potential Matthews contract number where Stützle out-values him? There's still a chance Matthews gets $14-15M out of the Leafs in a couple years, depending on the cap increases and other contracts.

Imagine paying one player $14-15M for 60 goals and 50 assists (maybe), when Ottawa will have Stützle AND Tkachuk for about $16.5M and will get 75 goals and 95 assist together. And that's based on their numbers this year at 21 and 23 respectively.

Wrong again ...Matthews is going to to sign for 15 mil that's ridiculous...his star power alone males him.more valuable to a leaf team and fan base amd combine that with keeping marner happy this is a no brainer !!!60 goal mvp rocket guys in their prime aren't getting traded for potential unless it's named conner....use common sense ....for Tim to win a rocket would mean AM34 , mcdavid , DP, Tage, Rant, all would ALL have to have off years and that's not gonna happen...and that's not even taking in account the user talent who will be here shortly ..
Nylander for Tim is much better representation

 

[Golden_Jet]

What don't you get ...50 isn't going to win you anything with the talent right now ...zip ...

No hart no rocket and still be a lower value..

This isn't hard

Oh so now he can get 50.
Oh how the mighty have changed their tune.

 

[Jerkbait]

Oh so now he can get 50.
Oh how the mighty have changed their tune.

He could get 30 lol he could get 50 lol makes no difference..zero zip zilch..nadda ..he isnt winning a hart or Rocket ever guaranteed...too many better players on better teams overlapping their prime with his coming ...I get it, yiur crushed , but don't be,he is still a great player and may crack the top 10 someday but being a top 10 doesn't make you a rocket or hart winner LOL...you rraoze he plays in the same NHL league as conner mcdavid, AM34, Leon, Kucherov, DP, Tage, Barkov, crosby, Marner, Makar, Mackinnon, Robertson, Point, Hughes, etc etc ...LOL and we don't have to Point out the fact a new mcdavid is on his way right??? Its like saying Nylnader will win the Hart next year ....$,#&$$,,$ LOL

 

[Golden_Jet]

He could get 30 lol he could get 50 lol makes no difference..zero zip zilch..nadda ..he isnt winning a hart or Rocket ever guaranteed...too many better players on better teams overlapping their prime with his coming ...I get it, yiur crushed , but don't be,he is still a great player and may crack the top 10 someday but being a top 10 doesn't make you a rocket or hart winner LOL...you rraoze he plays in the same NHL league as conner mcdavid, AM34, Leon, Kucherov, DP, Tage, Barkov, crosby, Marner, Makar, Mackinnon, Robertson, Point, Hughes, etc etc ...LOL and we don't have to Point out the fact a new mcdavid is on his way right??? Its like saying Nylnader will win the Hart next year ....$,#&$$,,$ LOL

Still doesn’t change fact you back pedalled.

 

[TkachukNorris79]

Nylander for Tim is much better representation

This is literally all you needed to say to discredit everything else you've said.

 

[Atomos2]

certainly seems like you are.

Lol k. Next time use a crystal ball for your psychic readings

 

[SpezDispenser]

He could get 30 lol he could get 50 lol makes no difference..zero zip zilch..nadda ..he isnt winning a hart or Rocket ever guaranteed...too many better players on better teams overlapping their prime with his coming ...I get it, yiur crushed , but don't be,he is still a great player and may crack the top 10 someday but being a top 10 doesn't make you a rocket or hart winner LOL...you rraoze he plays in the same NHL league as conner mcdavid, AM34, Leon, Kucherov, DP, Tage, Barkov, crosby, Marner, Makar, Mackinnon, Robertson, Point, Hughes, etc etc ...LOL and we don't have to Point out the fact a new mcdavid is on his way right??? Its like saying Nylnader will win the Hart next year ....$,#&$$,,$ LOL

This is a hilarious post. I hope to heck you didn't burn too many of your existing brain cells writing it

Still doesn’t change fact you back pedalled.

Holy shit....he back pedaled??

 

[Golden_Jet]

Lol k. Next time use a crystal ball for your psychic readings

Lol, just read the thread for your answer, it’s not that hard.

 

[ninetyeight]

I don’t think it’s really about people underrating Matthews or not expecting him to bounce back to 50+ goals next year.

Matthews already has an 11.6M cap hit. He has one year left on his deal. His next contract is likely going to be 12.5-14M and will START at age 27 and likely run until 34-35. Maybe he ages like Ovie (health so far doesn’t seem likely, comparatively) but a 12-14M cap hit for 32, 33, 34 years old isn’t that appealing. On the flip side, Stutzle’s extension kicks in next year. He will turn 22 and it will take him just up to age 30, at 8.3M.

If Matthews averages 56 goals and 50 assists for 106 points until age 30 and Stutzle averages 42 goals and 50 assists until 30, you get 8 years of 92 points from Stutzle for 8.3M and you get 3-4 years of 106 points from Matthews for 12-14M.

No one is saying Stutzle is better. There’s other factors that dictate you wouldn’t trade him for Matthews at this point in their careers. It’s sort of simple.

It's all just speculation, but I don't see how Matthews isn't at least a 30 goal scorer into his late 30s. Guys like him and Ovechkin who rely more on their shot, positioning and hockeyIQ, I feel have much better chances of longevity than someone who also relies on skating and athletism (Stutzle, McDavid, Hughes..).

Matthews isn't going to get 14M, at least not in Toronto. This "dip" year certainly affected that. I'm not gonna act like I know what's gonna happen better than you, since I don't, but your example is all speculation. For all we know Matthews could score 50 goals the next 8 seasons and Stutzle might never do so. Like I said in my previous post, people assume that Matthews will worsen quick and Stutzle will close the gap. And your post proved my point.

 

[LokiDog]

It's all just speculation, but I don't see how Matthews isn't at least a 30 goal scorer into his late 30s. Guys like him and Ovechkin who rely more on their shot, positioning and hockeyIQ, I feel have much better chances of longevity than someone who also relies on skating and athletism (Stutzle, McDavid, Hughes..).

Matthews isn't going to get 14M, at least not in Toronto. This "dip" year certainly affected that. I'm not gonna act like I know what's gonna happen better than you, since I don't, but your example is all speculation. For all we know Matthews could score 50 goals the next 8 seasons and Stutzle might never do so. Like I said in my previous post, people assume that Matthews will worsen quick and Stutzle will close the gap. And your post proved my point.

I’m not assuming Matthews will worsen and I’m sure he will continue to score into his 30s. I used 30 as a cutoff because that’s when Stutzle’s next deal ends. If Stutzle stays at this seasons level as a 40 goal, 90 point player and Matthews is a 50 goal, 105 point player for the next 5 years, I still don’t think you trade the younger, cheaper player for 10-15 extra goals and 20 extra points. It shouldn’t be this offensive to people that as elite as Matthews is, people wouldn’t trade Stutzle for him.

Let’s say Matthews extends in Toronto at his current cap hit or 11.6M, rather than 12+. I still don’t think most GMs trade a 21 year old locked up until 30 at 8.3M for a 25 year old at 11.6M. Let’s say next year they both play 82 games and Stutzle has 40 goals, 92 points - no progress from this year - and Matthews bounces back and has 57 goals and 108 points. I still think you keep the guy who is 3.3M cheaper and only committed to until age 30 over the guy who is more expensive and committed to until 35. I’m not discounting or insulting Matthews or Leafs fans. It just shouldn’t be this controversial to say that you’d rather have the younger, cheaper player who is pretty nearly as elite, even if he never closes the gap.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

You guys are still on this? Matthews is the better overall player and will get paid like it. going either direction isnt even that bad, personally I would rather take the better player. when the cap is rising how it was suppose to that tiny bit of cap savings isn't going to make much of a difference.

I mean would u trade Stutzle for MacKinnon or others that are viewed in the same tier as Matthews?
if the answer is still a No then it's likely homerism

Matthews has been injured all season just like Ive been questioning since the season started and is still over ppg.
not trying to knock Stutzle at all he's a awesome young player but he's not on Matthews level yet.

If the only way Stutzle wouldnt be traded is if Matthews left as a UFA after next season then this thread is pointless because that's obvious especially for Ottawa's position

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

What don't you get ...50 isn't going to win you anything with the talent right now ...zip ...

No hart no rocket and still be a lower value..

This isn't hard

The point is not that 50 will win it, the point is that TS's development is no where near complete, he may hit 50, he may hit 60, you have no idea. To say it's a guarantee that he never will, while mentioning players that couldn't do what he is doing at the same age as some sort of evidence, really makes you look uninformed and just plain silly.

This isn't hard, your right, stop being so committed to being wrong and you'll see that.