Blue Jays Discussion: Winter Meetings: Because there's no more fitting time to talk baseball than December

[Eyedea]

Soria to the Royals... because that's what they need

Holland out, Madson gone, Morales gone, Medlen and Duffy to the rotation. Their depth got decimated.

 

[metafour]

The GM search is even more frustrating, why Atkins? Nothing in his resume jumps out as a great GM or teambuilder. Just mindboggling.

Please take a second and study Mark Shapiro's executive-tree around baseball. The man is extremely good at targeting and developing baseball executives. He's got about 4-5 guys now serving as GM's around the league, all came up under him in Cleveland. What exactly is frustrating about Atkins? He is credited for playing a key role in Cleveland's player-development system which has churned out numerous players who have developed well past their pre-believed "ceilings" (Brantley, Kluber, Gomes, etc, etc, etc).

The Ross Atkins questioning is comical. He is highly accomplished and clearly bright. This isn't some random guy plucked off the street in Cleveland. He's spent his entire career under one of the strongest front office think tanks in baseball.

 

[tooncesmeow]

Please take a second and study Mark Shapiro's executive-tree around baseball. The man is extremely good at targeting and developing baseball executives. He's got about 4-5 guys now serving as GM's around the league, all came up under him in Cleveland. What exactly is frustrating about Atkins? He is credited for playing a key role in Cleveland's player-development system which has churned out numerous players who have developed well past their pre-believed "ceilings" (Brantley, Kluber, Gomes, etc, etc, etc).

The Ross Atkins questioning is comical. He is highly accomplished and clearly bright. This isn't some random guy plucked off the street in Cleveland. He's spent his entire career under one of the strongest front office think tanks in baseball.

I suppose I'm just venting late at night and without much knowledge. Cleveland hasn't had much on-field success and so I'm reacting poorly to a small market guy being hired in and hiring his boy from said small market. Again if you have any good links on understanding the more advanced aspects of baseball and the stats to share I'd be happy to read through it. I just feel like they're trying to play moneyball on a team that had a ton of momentum.

 

[metafour]

It seems asinine that you have a city that hasn't had a competitive team in any of its respective sports in a dozen or so years and you decide that once you finally get a team that can go deep and a fanbase that sold out a ton fo games (what was it, the last 20 or so games?) you deicde its not worth putting money into.

The problem is that the team we built is now old and declining. Out of the final 4 teams left in the Playoffs, our team has by far the least promising FUTURE outlook. The reality is that the core as we see it now (ie: Bautista, Encarnacion, Martin playing key roles) has 1, maybe 2 years left of real "contention". When the bulk of your "best players" are 32+ years old, does it really make sense to start adding more 30+ year old super-priced free agents on top of it? This is exactly what the Phillies tried doing, and it put them in the ****ter once they were left with a bunch of has-beens making up 90% of their overall team payroll.

Be frustrated all you want, but it never made sense to "double down" on this roster. Bautista is 35 and is realistically at about the end of his elite-performance run. Encarnacion is 33 in a month and his plate-discipline metrics are declining at a worrying rate (ie: he's about to regress hard). Martin is 33 in two months and took a beating catching Dickey's knuckleball this past year, he also spent a month+ being completely useless at the plate due to injury. All of those guys are injury risks. Tulowitzki is "only" 31, but he's among the most injury prone players in baseball with tons of money left on his contract. He couldn't stay healthy during his 20's in Colorado, no reason to expect that he'll become any less injury prone as he ages while playing on the turf in the Rogers Centre.

There is too much risk on this roster to validate going on a crazy spending spree. An owner like Rogers won't let them just buy their way out of mistakes unfortunately.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[metafour]

I suppose I'm just venting late at night and without much knowledge. Cleveland hasn't had much on-field success and so I'm reacting poorly to a small market guy being hired in and hiring his boy from said small market. Again if you have any good links on understanding the more advanced aspects of baseball and the stats to share I'd be happy to read through it. I just feel like they're trying to play moneyball on a team that had a ton of momentum.

Cleveland "not having success" is among the most inaccurate statements that is constantly thrown around. Take away the 2nd half of this past season for us, and they've had more success than we have on a considerably smaller budget. They won 92 games just two seasons ago. I've never seen a fanbase get so uppity over proclaiming our supposed superiority after literally a half-season of dominant baseball, and all it took was going crazy and trading away half of our farm system. The Indians didn't need to mortgage their future in order to win 92 games in 2013.

Cleveland has one of the strongest cores of young star-caliber players in baseball. A core that will guarantee that they remain competitive for years even despite the fact that they are a bottom-5 payroll team. There is a lot to like about the way their front office operates, which is why year after year their guys are hot commodities around the league.

 

[tooncesmeow]

Cleveland "not having success" is among the most inaccurate statements that is constantly thrown around. Take away the 2nd half of this past season for us, and they've had more success than we have on a considerably smaller budget. They won 92 games just two seasons ago. I've never seen a fanbase get so uppity over proclaiming our supposed superiority after literally a half-season of dominant baseball, and all it took was going crazy and trading away half of our farm system. The Indians didn't need to mortgage their future in order to win 92 games in 2013.

Cleveland has one of the strongest cores of young star-caliber players in baseball. A core that will guarantee that they remain competitive for years even despite the fact that they are a bottom-5 payroll team. There is a lot to like about the way their front office operates, which is why year after year their guys are hot commodities around the league.

This will probably come off as sarcastic but I appreciate you taking the time to write all of this. I haven't looked into the Indians, and I'm not aware of most teams rosters or their farm systems in the league but I understand your first point about the age of the roster and I'll take your word on Cleveland.

 

[Le Cobra]

At this rate, the next time a Toronto teams wins a championship in one of the big four leagues is the Super Bowl...yeah that's right...when we finally get an NFL team in 2050.


Things were better before Rogers. SkyDome. BJ Birdy. Better logo. Labatt. Ace pitchers. Management that weren't afraid to take risks. All the excitement that I had for the Jays has dwindled. Not looking forward to the new season as much...if they don't take a chance and show that the team is worth it, why should we?

If Rogers isn't willing to invest their money in this team, why should we?

 

[TF97]

I guess we should ignore the fact that the Blue Jays have one of the highest payrolls in the league.

 

[Shwaguy*]

And I guess we should ignore the fact that we still should have a top 3 team in baseball.

Sorry for only fielding a team that can play .600 baseball instead of .650

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Dios mio. People love overpaying for relievers.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

I guess we should ignore the fact that the Blue Jays have one of the highest payrolls in the league.

And that the Blue Jays had a top 10 payroll during losing seasons.

 

[Slot]

you say this like you're pretty sure of it, but there are currently 6 guys ahead of Sanchez in the rotation. He might be given a chance to win a job, but he'll more likely be slotted in the pen. Especially considering his stuff plays up in the pen unlike some of the starters in front of him who would just be long men.

Atkins mentioned him after Stroman and Estrada as their starters as to why they didn't need any more starting pitchers.

 

[HOCKEYGOON]

We were spoiled last year with Martin, Donaldson, Tulo and Price so the casuals are in an uproar.

 

[Woodman19]

Dios mio. People love overpaying for relievers.

It's mind blowing isn't it.

 

[zeke]

The problem is that the team we built is now old and declining. Out of the final 4 teams left in the Playoffs, our team has by far the least promising FUTURE outlook.

what a load of crap.

not only did we have the best roster in baseball but we had no bad contracts and only two contracts past 2016. only one player in his serious decline years. one of the best young pitchers in baseball and 2 other rookie of the year candidates.

absolutely perfect time and situation to sign a 30yr old perennial Cy candidate to a big deal.

 

[hoglund]

And I guess we should ignore the fact that we still should have a top 3 team in baseball.

Sorry for only fielding a team that can play .600 baseball instead of .650

With a lot of fans, it's win the world series or you suck, there's no middle ground.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

It's mind blowing isn't it.

And some people here think the sport needs a salary cap.

The sport has never been flush with more money than now.

 

[Kurtz]

It's mind blowing isn't it.

I think the only mind blowing thing is that some people still don't realize how vital the bullpen is.

 

[Kurtz]

And some people here think the sport needs a salary cap.

The sport has never been flush with more money than now.

From the fan standpoint, salary cap would be meant to increase parity, not profits. The league being flush with cash does not increase parity. Shapiro himself has said that the Jays go into every season with a 5 game disadvantage because of what the Red Sox/Yankees spend.

 

[Cor]

I'd rather go "bargain" shopping for the bullpen. If you spend big money there, you'll usually be sorry. Relievers are so up and down

Add a couple relievers, sign a catch (unless we are running with Thole) and then leave some space or in season trades

 

[Clark4Ever]

As time passes, I think it's becoming apparent that Sanchez is going to be our number two starter.

 

[teeder333*]

Zeke did you watch Sanchez at the end of the year? Guy just suddenly emerged. Now there is no guarantee that this is a permanent change, but might be.

With the US buck at insane levels versus the Canadian buck again, we are at a disadvantage, and we have a so -so owner in Rogers.

David Price, to me, is about to go on a serious decline, maybe even starting this year, and for him not to get an offer, to me sugests that Mutt and Jeff(Shapiro and Atkins) suspect this.

He is a good pitcher, but doesn't appear to have great stuff. I think he is strong mentally during the regular season, capable of high mental performance. Once he gets into the playoffs, everyone is tuned to that level and he doesn't seem as dominant.

Anyways that is my theory, I am sure you don't agree, but its mine.

I think anyone with an accountants background can see that even though we had a playoff deep run, the money that Rogers made from that run wouldn't even cover David Price's yearly salary. Sort of fugged up.

The guy is also 30 years old pretty old for a pitcher. No way I would have chased him, because he is old, I see decline coming soon and that is stupid money.

I know no one wants to hear about this kind of stuff when they are a sports fan, but we had a lot of guys who could just suddenly decline all of a sudden. E.E. Bautista, Tulowitzki(did we already see the start of that at the plate) and even possibly Donaldson.

Talking heads like Shapiro love building from the bottom up, and so yeah, everyone who wants success this year, should be very, very afraid of him getting anything of great promise in the off season. Probably just not going to happen, heck, be grateful for Happ, and possibly satisfied with Chavez.

If the team comes anywhere close to last year, well, a LOT of things are going to have to line up. A lot.

 

[masarume]

I don't know if it's a Toronto mentality or just disillusioned fans.
It seems like with each SP or RP signing, somebody has to come on here and complain tat we didn't sign them.
Or about the fact that we aren't rolling out 200 million strong like the dodgers or red sox.
When the Leafs were in the playoff chase in the early 2000's it was the same crap.

 

[tml19]

Anyone know the finnances on the Lowe deal? I havent been able to find it anywhere.