Blue Jays Discussion: Winter Meetings: Because there's no more fitting time to talk baseball than December

[Discoverer]

How do you know that? Do you have any evidence at all that Iwakuma had a hard preference for the Dodgers?

The speculation was that Price wanted to play in LA too. Turns out he'd rather have played in Toronto.

You always seem to have an excuse for the Jays, Discoverer. Without fail.

Iwakuma was also said to prefer the West Coast.

I admit that I'm making some assumptions, but Iwakuma preferred the West Coast, then signed with a team on the West Cost, then played there for four years, and is now signing to stay there. I don't think it's a stretch to say that's where he wanted to play.

The last few years, the Jays have generally made moves that I agree with (or, at least, ones that I understand). I would have loved to see Price in Toronto, but, given the abundance of high-end talent on the roster, I understand the desire to diversify the risk and raise the floor.

I don't have to make excuses when I think they're making smart moves, and you won't see me trying to explain moves I don't like or understand.

 

[Longshot]

At this rate, the next time a Toronto teams wins a championship in one of the big four leagues is the Super Bowl...yeah that's right...when we finally get an NFL team in 2050.


Things were better before Rogers. SkyDome. BJ Birdy. Better logo. Labatt. Ace pitchers. Management that weren't afraid to take risks. All the excitement that I had for the Jays has dwindled. Not looking forward to the new season as much...if they don't take a chance and show that the team is worth it, why should we?

If Rogers isn't willing to invest their money in this team, why should we?

You clearly have no memory of the Interbrew ownership years.

The guy responsible for running the organization (Alan Chapin was his name I believe) was based in New York and was a Yankees fan, the ownership once threatened to move out of the Skydome and back to Exhibition Place (which was being torn down at the time) and they limited the budget of GM Gord Ash to the point that having a contender was virtually impossible. The team was perpetually for sale and a form of rot had set in for the entire organization - essentially, for several years, nothing happened.

Rogers isn't perfect, but it's far, far better to have local ownership that is actively engaged in the community/market and has a vested interest in having a competitive team on the field.

 

[Bad News Benning]

They lost Greinke and got Iwakuma + Chapman to help them dry their tears. 6 WAR out, 6 WAR in, roughly.

We lost Price and got Happ and Chavez. 6 WAR out, 3 WAR in (if we're very lucky).

Yeah, he's got bottomless pockets, but Friedman is allocating his funds wisely.

We didn't lose 6 WAR....seeing as we never had Price for a full season....We had Price for 11 starts....and Stroman for 4 starts. Pretty sure a full year of Stroman will be worth more than whatever we got from Price/Stroman this past season.

you also failed to mention the prospects dealt for Chapman. Dodgers have unlimited resources which makes it easy to throw prospects away for 1 year of Chapman. Jays can't throw 30 million on international prospects a year or buy prospects.

Can't really compare the Dodgers with any other team outside of Boston or New York. You can be a lot more creative when you have unlimited funds.

 

[Longshot]

That's silly..Price didn't give us 6 WAR last season. There's no "6 WAR" void we need to fill just 'cus we had Price for a couple of months. Everyone except the new fans knew Price wasn't part of our future plans after this year.

It's more like a third of a season. Price made 11 regular season starts. A starting pitcher typically makes 32-35 starts a year.

The Jays five man rotation was essentially this last year:

Buehrle
Dickey
Norris/Estrada
Hutch/Stroman
Sanchez/Boyd/Copeland/Redmond/Doubront/Price

 

[JS19]

He's a dick to be sure. But we've got a veteran team with a lot of leadership so it shouldn't be much of an issue here. His personality wasn't an issue in Boston, and wasn't a big issue in Philly (other than with some fans, but Philly fans are the worst human beings on the planet).

Dallas thought they had leadership and veteran guys, but Avery still managed to piss off people in the locker room. You can have all the leadership in the world, but if there's that one cancer that nobody likes, all that leadership won't help. Papelbon isn't worth spending assets on. Washington can keep that locker room cancer.

 

[tamle]

It's more like a third of a season. Price made 11 regular season starts. A starting pitcher typically makes 32-35 starts a year.

The Jays five man rotation was essentially this last year:

Buehrle
Dickey
Norris/Estrada
Hutch/Stroman
Sanchez/Boyd/Copeland/Redmond/Doubront/Price

Oops yeah, I ninja edited out the 'half a season' just before you posted.

 

[le_sean]

Of course it's hindsight, but imagine if they could go into the season with a rotation of Stroman, Syndegaard, Estrada, Happ and Hutch.

 

[KapG]

We didn't lose 6 WAR....seeing as we never had Price for a full season....We had Price for 11 starts....and Stroman for 4 starts. Pretty sure a full year of Stroman will be worth more than whatever we got from Price/Stroman this past season.

you also failed to mention the prospects dealt for Chapman. Dodgers have unlimited resources which makes it easy to throw prospects away for 1 year of Chapman. Jays can't throw 30 million on international prospects a year or buy prospects.

Can't really compare the Dodgers with any other team outside of Boston or New York. You can be a lot more creative when you have unlimited funds.

Rogers has the money to offer 30 mil a year to international prospects, they just choose not to.

Rogers is a multi-billion dollar corporation.

 

[Kurtz]

Iwakuma was also said to prefer the West Coast.

I admit that I'm making some assumptions, but Iwakuma preferred the West Coast, then signed with a team on the West Cost, then played there for four years, and is now signing to stay there. I don't think it's a stretch to say that's where he wanted to play.

I think it's a pretty massive stretch. You're going on 1 uncredited sentence from 5 years ago (good memory recall though). Iwakuma signed in Seattle because they had the highest bid and thus exclusive rights to him. He signed in LA because they offered him the most lucrative contract (unless we hear otherwise).

We're not Siberia. It's not a monumental challenge getting players to play here.

 

[le_sean]

Rogers has the money to offer 30 mil a year to international prospects, they just choose not to.

Rogers is a multi-billion dollar corporation.

Yeah and Bill Gates could buy the entire MLB. Doesn't mean he has to be stupid with his money.

 

[Kurtz]

We didn't lose 6 WAR....seeing as we never had Price for a full season....We had Price for 11 starts....and Stroman for 4 starts. Pretty sure a full year of Stroman will be worth more than whatever we got from Price/Stroman this past season.

you also failed to mention the prospects dealt for Chapman. Dodgers have unlimited resources which makes it easy to throw prospects away for 1 year of Chapman. Jays can't throw 30 million on international prospects a year or buy prospects.

Can't really compare the Dodgers with any other team outside of Boston or New York. You can be a lot more creative when you have unlimited funds.

Friedman was making the playoffs with Tampa when they were in the same division as us, and had a bottom 5 payroll. The guy is an amazing GM...I'm not sure how or why you're disagreeing with that.

 

[Kurtz]

Yeah and Bill Gates could buy the entire MLB. Doesn't mean he has to be stupid with his money.

I believe MLB rules prevent one owner from controlling multiple teams. But if mr Gates was a baseball fan, it wouldn't shock me to see him buy a team and then spend whatever it takes. (ie Ballmer, Cuban in NBA).

 

[Bad News Benning]

Rogers has the money to offer 30 mil a year to international prospects, they just choose not to.

Rogers is a multi-billion dollar corporation.

hey I'd love it if Rogers spent that much on the jays but we can't do much about it.

Jays can still win with their current payroll. No reason this team can't do what the Cardinals do every year or what teams like the Pirates and Royals have done recently.

 

[Discoverer]

I think it's a pretty massive stretch. You're going on 1 uncredited sentence from 5 years ago (good memory recall though). Iwakuma signed in Seattle because they had the highest bid and thus exclusive rights to him. He signed in LA because they offered him the most lucrative contract (unless we hear otherwise).

We're not Siberia. It's not a monumental challenge getting players to play here.

It wasn't so much memory recall as... what's the opposite? Memory... screw-up? I thought I remembered reading about it this offseason and that's the best source I could come up with.

I can remove one of those issues by sourcing the 5-year-old article with this Japanese article that hilariously Google-translates to mild West Coast team is better choice.

And I'm not trying to say it's a monumental challenge, but it has proven to be an issue in the past (as we've noticed time and time again with various players' no-trade clauses).

Either way... I wasn't trying to say I prefer Happ over Iwakuma by any means. That would be stupid. All I was saying is that there's more to it than simply paying an extra $3 million per year.

 

[Bad News Benning]

Friedman was making the playoffs with Tampa when they were in the same division as us, and had a bottom 5 payroll. The guy is an amazing GM...I'm not sure how or why you're disagreeing with that.

What he's doing with LA has nothing to do with TB. Completely different situations

I wouldn't say getting Iwakuma/Chapman to replace Grienke is a sign of his GM skills. He has endless supplies of money and is expected to make headlines every off season. If you were a Dodgers fan you would be *****ing at Friedman instead of Shapiro because he didn't go get Price or Grienke. Dodgers have literally no excuse for losing out on one of the big name pitchers.

 

[hockeywiz542]

As Day 1 of the MLB Winter Meetings kicks off in Nashville, Scott MacArthur and Steve Phillips offer an inside look at what goes on, what exactly is discussed and how the Blue Jays will be approaching the offseason.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/video/phillips-this-is-not-the-start-shapiro-wanted~764715

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[TF97]

13M over two years for Lowe... man, I'm not liking the prices for relievers this offseason. I hope Atkins doesn't overpay for one, especially when you can find quality relievers in the scrap heap.

 

[Bad News Benning]

13M over two years for Lowe... man, I'm not liking the prices for relievers this offseason. I hope Atkins doesn't overpay for one, especially when you can find quality relievers in the scrap heap.

Mark Lowe is the perfect example why you don't spend money on relievers. Mariners found him off he scrap heap, and 1 year later he's getting 6.5 a year. Plenty of reclamation projects out there that can give you quality innings out of the pen.

 

[TF97]

Mark Lowe is the perfect example why you don't spend money on relievers. Mariners found him off he scrap heap, and 1 year later he's getting 6.5 a year. Plenty of reclamation projects out there that can give you quality innings out of the pen.

Exactly. Just look at guys like Trevor Cahill. He was piss poor as a starter and then got put in the pen and he was dominant. No need to go out and spend big bucks on a guy who will pitch 70 innings max.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Encarnacion sets end of spring training deadline to get an extension done with the Jays.

http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/904432

 

[KapG]

Yeah and Bill Gates could buy the entire MLB. Doesn't mean he has to be stupid with his money.

So Rogers spending 30 mil once a year on top end international prospects is being stupid with their money?

It's peanuts to them....

 

[tml19]

Rogers has the money to offer 30 mil a year to international prospects, they just choose not to.

Rogers is a multi-billion dollar corporation.

Because that multi-billion dollar corporation loves losing money cause they can.

 

[KapG]

hey I'd love it if Rogers spent that much on the jays but we can't do much about it.

Jays can still win with their current payroll. No reason this team can't do what the Cardinals do every year or what teams like the Pirates and Royals have done recently.

I agree which is why I try not to get to wound up about it even if it does frustrate me.

Is what it is

 

[Habaneros]

hey I'd love it if Rogers spent that much on the jays but we can't do much about it.

Jays can still win with their current payroll. No reason this team can't do what the Cardinals do every year or what teams like the Pirates and Royals have done recently.

Here is why i got a bad feeling .

David Price went 9-1 for the Jays....Mark Buehrle went 15-8.
Buehrle and Price combined went 24-9 for the Jays. Then throw in Hutchison at 13-5.
Those 3 all combined went 37W-14W

There all gone....


David Price (replacement) = Marcus Stroman
I love Stro but ,he has thrown only 157 total career innings in his short reg season career .
He could go 15-8 or 16 -8 this year and that likely means Jays miss the playoffs........

Happ and Chavez? will be lucky if those 2 together equal a 500 record
Does anyone here think Happ and Chavez combined will go 28W and 13L like Buehrle and Hutch did???

This is where the Jays are in trouble...Jays finished 6 ahead of the pack in a WEAKER than normal division.
Boston bolsters there roster for the farewell to Ortiz season .....The Jays with the current rotation will be lucky to fight for a wildcard...