Blue Jays Discussion: Winter Meetings: Because there's no more fitting time to talk baseball than December

[King Mapes]

Lol at using win-losses for a pitcher for the argument especially for Hutch

 

[TF97]

Here is why i got a bad feeling .

David Price went 9-1 for the Jays....Mark Buehrle went 15-8.
Buehrle and Price combined went 24-9 for the Jays. Then throw in Hutchison at 13-5.
Those 3 all combined went 37W-14W

There all gone....


David Price (replacement) = Marcus Stroman
I love Stro but ,he has thrown only 157 total career innings in his short reg season career .
He could go 15-8 or 16 -8 this year and that likely means Jays miss the playoffs........

Happ and Chavez? will be lucky if those 2 together equal a 500 record
Does anyone here think Happ and Chavez combined will go 28W and 13L like Buehrle and Hutch did???

This is where the Jays are in trouble...Jays finished 6 ahead of the pack in a WEAKER than normal division.
Boston bolsters there roster for the farewell to Ortiz season .....The Jays with the current rotation will be lucky to fight for a wildcard...

A)
B) Hutch isn't gone
C)

 

[TootooTrain]

Encarnacion sets end of spring training deadline to get an extension done with the Jays.

http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/904432

Many players don't like to discuss contract status during the season so it makes sense. Lots can happen during the course of a season that can change how we feel about re-signing them today.

 

[Bad News Benning]

Encarnacion sets end of spring training deadline to get an extension done with the Jays.

http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/904432

Don't see any reason for the jays to give him a lot of money if he can't field a position. I'm guessing his contract demands will probably be crazy when he sees what Davis and Heyward get. Jays will keep Bautista since he can slid into the DH role in a few years when Alford is ready.

Encarnacion will either be dealt this winter for a young arm or the jays will hold on to him and collect the comp pick next winter. Really don't see a mid season trade as I expect the jays to be in contention.

 

[Habaneros]

A)
B) Hutch isn't gone
C)

Hutch is gone....Mentally he is gone watch....2014 inconsistent 2015 inconsistent ....then banished to the minors
then to the bullpen.Do you expect him on the opening day roster as a starter in 2016?


Chavez is not gonna win no 13-15 games for the Jays....and Happ will be the Happ we remember around 500
or a few games over.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Hutch is gone.....he wasn't happy last year about what took place..
Mentally he is gonedo you really think he wants to play in TO ?

and where's he going to go? Coach Little league? He's under team control for 3 more years, he can't go anywhere.

and what happened last year? He sucked so lost his spot in the rotation come playoffs? Yeah what a horrible team Toronto has making players earn things, better ask for a trade to a team that doesn't remove pitchers from the rotation when they pitch badly. Oh wait there aren't any of those around. Any team with 5 better optiond doesn't let the 6th guy start. That's not a Toronto thing, that's a MLB thing. If he doesn't like it, then pitch better. He's not going to find a team different anywhere else.

 

[Eyedea]

They lost Greinke and got Iwakuma + Chapman to help them dry their tears. 6 WAR out, 6 WAR in, roughly.

We lost Price and got Happ and Chavez. 6 WAR out, 3 WAR in (if we're very lucky).

Yeah, he's got bottomless pockets, but Friedman is allocating his funds wisely.

To be fair, Happ and Chavez are making half of what Price is.

And 3 WAR isn't really being lucky. Steamer is usually pretty conservative with their projections and they have Happ and Chavez at 1.8 fWAR each.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Oh so now it's the **** Stroman bandwagon the fairweathers are getting on?

Stroman is legit. You don't pitch like he did in the playoffs without being legit.

Hutch isn't gone, but you could probably argue that may actually be a bad thing for the Jays depending on if Good Hutch ever comes back.

Say bad things about Stroman and i will fight you.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Hutch is gone.....he wasn't happy last year about what took place..
Mentally he is gonedo you really think he wants to play in TO ?

Chavez is not gonna win no 13-15 games for Jays....and Happ will be be the Happ we remember 500 or a few games over.

Wins and losses isn't the most important thing to determine how good a pitcher is.

 

[dredeye]

Soria to the Royals.

 

[Bad News Benning]

Here is why i got a bad feeling .

David Price went 9-1 for the Jays....Mark Buehrle went 15-8.
Buehrle and Price combined went 24-9 for the Jays. Then throw in Hutchison at 13-5.
Those 3 all combined went 37W-14W

There all gone....


David Price (replacement) = Marcus Stroman
I love Stro but ,he has thrown only 157 total career innings in his short reg season career .
He could go 15-8 or 16 -8 this year and that likely means Jays miss the playoffs........

Happ and Chavez? will be lucky if those 2 together equal a 500 record
Does anyone here think Happ and Chavez combined will go 28W and 13L like Buehrle and Hutch did???

This is where the Jays are in trouble...Jays finished 6 ahead of the pack in a WEAKER than normal division.
Boston bolsters there roster for the farewell to Ortiz season .....The Jays with the current rotation will be lucky to fight for a wildcard...

W's are not what you judge pitchers by....but if you want to use W's...well Hutch won 13 games with a 5.50 ERA. Pitching to the tune of a 4.00 ERA should get you 15-20 wins with this offense.

Go look at the box scores from David Price starts and tell me which games he won us by himself? We really didn't need an ace in the majority of those games...we just needed quality starts which we will get from Happ, Estrada, Dickey, Chavez, etc.

If your offense scores 5 runs a game and you have a great defense you don't need elite pitching. The jays also happen to have the best base running team in baseball. Simply being average in pitching department will be good enough to get this team in the playoffs.

 

[TootooTrain]

Don't see any reason for the jays to give him a lot of money if he can't field a position. I'm guessing his contract demands will probably be crazy when he sees what Davis and Heyward get. Jays will keep Bautista since he can slid into the DH role in a few years when Alford is ready.

Encarnacion will either be dealt this winter for a young arm or the jays will hold on to him and collect the comp pick next winter. Really don't see a mid season trade as I expect the jays to be in contention.

Well if we're arguing who's the better DH, I'd almost give the edge to Eddy but both are neck and neck when it comes to many offensive categories aside from walks which Jose had more of than strikeouts this year. Even though Jose has declined in the field, he can atleast play the position. Plus whatever weight you put into team dynamics, ie being one of the clear leaders here. It's a tough decision if you had to pick one of the two to carry on with in terms of an extension. I hope we go deep into the playoffs again this upcoming year so that coming back is an easier choice for them rather than cashing in big. As naive as that sounds. Either way I have no issue if either decides to walk even though it will suck from a fan perspective. They both took big time team discounts last time around. Unless we go all the way, I don't expect them to do the same again.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Trade Edwin and Jose to Red Soxs for prospects

The Shapiro way

 

[dredeye]

Here is why i got a bad feeling .

David Price went 9-1 for the Jays....Mark Buehrle went 15-8.
Buehrle and Price combined went 24-9 for the Jays. Then throw in Hutchison at 13-5.
Those 3 all combined went 37W-14W

There all gone....


David Price (replacement) = Marcus Stroman
I love Stro but ,he has thrown only 157 total career innings in his short reg season career .
He could go 15-8 or 16 -8 this year and that likely means Jays miss the playoffs........

Happ and Chavez? will be lucky if those 2 together equal a 500 record
Does anyone here think Happ and Chavez combined will go 28W and 13L like Buehrle and Hutch did???

This is where the Jays are in trouble...Jays finished 6 ahead of the pack in a WEAKER than normal division.
Boston bolsters there roster for the farewell to Ortiz season .....The Jays with the current rotation will be lucky to fight for a wildcard...

Where did Hutch go? Did I miss something.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Trade Edwin and Jose to Red Soxs for prospects

The Shapiro way

Both have no trade clauses

 

[JS19]

Here is why i got a bad feeling .

David Price went 9-1 for the Jays....Mark Buehrle went 15-8.
Buehrle and Price combined went 24-9 for the Jays. Then throw in Hutchison at 13-5.
Those 3 all combined went 37W-14W

There all gone....


David Price (replacement) = Marcus Stroman
I love Stro but ,he has thrown only 157 total career innings in his short reg season career .
He could go 15-8 or 16 -8 this year and that likely means Jays miss the playoffs........

Happ and Chavez? will be lucky if those 2 together equal a 500 record
Does anyone here think Happ and Chavez combined will go 28W and 13L like Buehrle and Hutch did???

This is where the Jays are in trouble...Jays finished 6 ahead of the pack in a WEAKER than normal division.
Boston bolsters there roster for the farewell to Ortiz season .....The Jays with the current rotation will be lucky to fight for a wildcard...

 

[Eyedea]

Trade Edwin and Jose to Red Soxs for prospects

The Shapiro way

I mean if they wanna give us prospects then I'll take Moncada and Benintendi off their hands.

 

[dredeye]

Don't see any reason for the jays to give him a lot of money if he can't field a position. I'm guessing his contract demands will probably be crazy when he sees what Davis and Heyward get. Jays will keep Bautista since he can slid into the DH role in a few years when Alford is ready.

Encarnacion will either be dealt this winter for a young arm or the jays will hold on to him and collect the comp pick next winter. Really don't see a mid season trade as I expect the jays to be in contention.

Pretty much this. EE is potentially more likely to hold up physically because he's not playing a position right now but one of he or Jose is gone at the very latest next season unless they both agree to short term deals which will never happen. If EE were willing to sign for 3 or less seasons they would entertain keeping him around. More likely he's gone to free agency and we pick up a comp pick unless he falls apart this season. Not sure we could trade him either with the 10 5 rights.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Both have no trade clauses

We've got convincing arguments for them to waive their no trade and play with their buddies Ortiz and Price

 

[tml19]

Wait so you use Hutch's wins to prove we are losing "wins". To follow that up you say he pitched terrible and isn't worth anything. Which is it??

 

[Habaneros]

Wins and losses isn't the most important thing to determine how good a pitcher is.

It's the Wins record that gets you to the playoffs....

What the Jays lost and what they replaced it with the Jays are goona be on the outside looking in....and the scary part for me ?
If the Jays are 3-4 games out of a wildcard at the trade deadline ? (New management)There so bent on protecting the minor league talent and building the minors up,they won't part with anything at the deadline ....They likely trade both Eddie and Jose to bolster the farm up ....."For the years to come".....

 

[TootooTrain]

We've got convincing arguments for them to waive their no trade and play with their buddies Ortiz and Price

Ortiz is retiring next year. Also..

 

[Bad News Benning]

Soria to the Royals.

not sure why. Royals would've been better off putting that money towards an Outfielder. The agents for Herrera and Davis will both be happy though as it sets a bench mark for their future negotiations. KC bullpen could become an expensive one in a few years.

 

[TootooTrain]

Wins and losses isn't the most important thing to determine how good a pitcher is.

Wins and loss get you to the playoffs....

 

[Keeping it Blue]

W's are not what you judge pitchers by....but if you want to use W's...well Hutch won 13 games with a 5.50 ERA. Pitching to the tune of a 4.00 ERA should get you 15-20 wins with this offense.

Go look at the box scores from David Price starts and tell me which games he won us by himself? We really didn't need an ace in the majority of those games...we just needed quality starts which we will get from Happ, Estrada, Dickey, Chavez, etc.

If your offense scores 5 runs a game and you have a great defense you don't need elite pitching. The jays also happen to have the best base running team in baseball. Simply being average in pitching department will be good enough to get this team in the playoffs.

All these complaints about pitching lead me to one of my more favorite theories:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-exponential-nature-of-offense/

I think there was one I read from a different author on fangraphs, but I can't seem to find it.