Speculation: Why are the Leafs so hesitant to change the main pieces?

[NVious]

That’s just horsecrap.
Many of the most popular players in this franchises long history were so called “ugly hockey” players.

So why are they refusing to change the core then?

Not only has there been zero consequences for any of the fraud 4 and their failures, but they've all come out with raises for it.

Shanahan hasn't been fired either, so ownership is signing off on this failure.

The only explanation is that they'd rather not rock the boat and they'll take their minuscule (non-existent really) chance this core figures it out because they can't bear the thought of losing players as popular/productive as them, despite the fact they all suck in the playoffs (except Nylander who is almost playing to his contract level).

Winning a championship requires you to be shrewd at times, this ownership has zero balls/vision:
The Celtics traded their old core for the pieces that ended up leading to this championship
The raps traded their most popular/loyal/best player and won a championship
The Panthers traded their franchise point leader and won the cup
The Golden Knights traded their most popular player who just won a Vezina and won a cup

Here in Toronto, we've endured way more failure and have had way less change.

 

[Tak7]

So why are they refusing to change the core then?

Not only has there been zero consequences for any of the fraud 4 and their failures, but they've all come out with raises for it.

Shanahan hasn't been fired either, so ownership is signing off on this failure.

The only explanation is that they'd rather not rock the boat and they'll take their minuscule (non-existent really) chance this core figures it out because they can't bear the thought of losing players as popular/productive as them, despite the fact they all suck in the playoffs (except Nylander who is almost playing to his contract level).

This is the first time since this core was put together, that I think they genuinely want to make changes to the core - they just can't, because they screwed the pooch in the past.

On ownership - I tend to view things very differently; I absolutely think MLSE want to win, and are discontent about the losing. I don't think it's a lack of care that has got the Leafs here, but rather a lack of knowing how to win.

Remember - that was the entire point of handing Shanahan the organizational keys in the first place. Give all the power to a "winner", let him do his thing, and firmly stay out of his way and let someone who is better suited to make hockey operational decisions, make them, instead of the board. Open up the chequebook for every single expense possible, which doesn't just include the roster and contract setups, but everything else off-ice too, from the coaching staff, to player development staff and tools, to off-ice facilities and various different amenities and services provided the players.

They've done everything that good "owners" and custodians of a team are meant to do. It's just that the people they've put their trust into, have been awful.

It's easy to blame MLSE at this point, but this organization operates very differently to the way it did when they were run by the TPP - which felt MUCH more driven by earning money.

 

[socko]

This is the first time since this core was put together, that I think they genuinely want to make changes to the core - they just can't, because they screwed the pooch in the past.

On ownership - I tend to view things very differently; I absolutely think MLSE want to win, and are discontent about the losing. I don't think it's a lack of care that has got the Leafs here, but rather a lack of knowing how to win.

Remember - that was the entire point of handing Shanahan the organizational keys in the first place. Give all the power to a "winner", let him do his thing, and firmly stay out of his way and let someone who is better suited to make hockey operational decisions, make them, instead of the board. Open up the chequebook for every single expense possible, which doesn't just include the roster and contract setups, but everything else off-ice too, from the coaching staff, to player development staff and tools, to off-ice facilities and various different amenities and services provided the players.

They've done everything that good "owners" and custodians of a team are meant to do. It's just that the people they've put their trust into, have been awful.

It's easy to blame MLSE at this point, but this organization operates very differently to the way it did when they were run by the TPP - which felt MUCH more driven by earning money.

I think you nailed it. They put their faith in Shanahan and Shanny is a complete fraud. I don't even think they fully realize it yet.

 

[ACC1224]

Huh?

Tampa letting their captain / franchise leader walk for nothing, and trading away a top pairing caliber Dman, isn't 'brave' and bold?

Embracing fresh ideas, and not being afraid to try something different in the wake of the evidence before them, is what Tampa did - it's also the anti-thesis of the Maple Leafs.

I'm sure if Stamkos were willing to take a cheaper deal they would have retained him and like I said lets see if the situation is different with Tavares.

I don't think the Leafs retained Rielly out of fear but more likely they had no replacement for him. Tampa still has Hedman.

 

[Tak7]

I'm sure if Stamkos were willing to take a cheaper deal they would have retained him and like I said lets see if the situation is different with Tavares.

I don't think the Leafs retained Rielly out of fear but more likely they had no replacement for him. Tampa still has Hedman.

That's the entire point though, right? They were brave enough to lowball him - that fanbase is all over JBB right now, but he's bold and not afraid to make difficult decisions. Sergachev also just turned 26, and was flipped right before his trade protection kicked in.

That's a level of ruthlessness and opportunism that the Leafs just don't have.

I also don't know why you're trying to make literal comparisons between Tavares and Stamkos - Stamkos means so much more to that fanbase and that team, than Tavares does to Leafs fans and the Leafs. You're being far more literal in a discussion about organizational philosophies and mindsets than I think is necessary.

 

[NVious]

This is the first time since this core was put together, that I think they genuinely want to make changes to the core - they just can't, because they screwed the pooch in the past.

On ownership - I tend to view things very differently; I absolutely think MLSE want to win, and are discontent about the losing. I don't think it's a lack of care that has got the Leafs here, but rather a lack of knowing how to win.

Remember - that was the entire point of handing Shanahan the organizational keys in the first place. Give all the power to a "winner", let him do his thing, and firmly stay out of his way and let someone who is better suited to make hockey operational decisions, make them, instead of the board. Open up the chequebook for every single expense possible, which doesn't just include the roster and contract setups, but everything else off-ice too, from the coaching staff, to player development staff and tools, to off-ice facilities and various different amenities and services provided the players.

They've done everything that good "owners" and custodians of a team are meant to do. It's just that the people they've put their trust into, have been awful.

It's easy to blame MLSE at this point, but this organization operates very differently to the way it did when they were run by the TPP - which felt MUCH more driven by earning money.

They can't because they're not going nuclear, but then again why would they when they are the most profitable in the league with extremely popular and productive (in season) players.

Everyone is abdicating responsibility here, the owners who say its not their fault their president sucks who says its not his fault the gm/coach sucks who say its not their fault the players suck who say theres always next year.

Shanahan still being here says everything, failure is ok and there's no consequences to it.

The time to 100% make changes was after Montreal, after that it has surpassed insanity and now we can't go nuclear because of reasons (it'd be mean to the players or something).

From 05-15 the Leafs most won playoff games in a single playoffs was 3
From 15-24 the Leafs most won playoff games in a single playoffs was 5

One of those periods coincides arguably the most talented core in modern Leaf history.

 

[Maple Leaf]

maybe no one want to give up assets for money marner for bi

 

[ACC1224]

That's the entire point though, right? They were brave enough to lowball him - that fanbase is all over JBB right now, but he's bold and not afraid to make difficult decisions. Sergachev also just turned 26, and was flipped right before his trade protection kicked in.

That's a level of ruthlessness and opportunism that the Leafs just don't have.

I also don't know why you're trying to make literal comparisons between Tavares and Stamkos - Stamkos means so much more to that fanbase and that team, than Tavares does to Leafs fans and the Leafs. You're being far more literal in a discussion about organizational philosophies and mindsets than I think is necessary.

Stamkos is more comparable to the Leafs moving on from Sundin?

No idea what the deal with Sergachev is or the reason why he was moved.

 

[Tak7]

Stamkos is more comparable to the Leafs moving on from Sundin?

No idea what the deal with Sergachev is or the reason why he was moved.

I'd still say Stamkos is far more valuable to the Tampa market and their fans, than Sundin was for the Leafs.

Most fans were wanting Sundin to waive during the Muskoka 5, but that's irrelevant

It ultimately comes back down to the original point - they are risk averse, and have been paralyzed by fear for sometime. We had reports last month that they were worried that moving on from Marner would be "Kadri 2.0", which sums it up.

Think Tampa cares what Stamkos or Sergachev accomplish now that they are gone? Did Florida when they moved off Weeger and Huberdeau?

EDIT - We can also throw in the way these teams handle massive pending UFA decisions as well. It's bold and fearless.

Boston waited until 9 weeks before free agency to get the Pastrnak extension done despite him lighting it up in his contract year & scoring 60+.

Florida waited on Reinhart until the 11th hour (literally) despite B2b cup final appearances and 57 goals.

The Leafs? The backed up the cash truck onto Nylander's driveway as early as they could, and dumped all the cash out, with trade protection, in January, scared that his production was going to continue to drive the price up.

 

[ACC1224]

I'd still say Stamkos is far more valuable to the Tampa market and their fans, than Sundin was for the Leafs.

Most fans were wanting Sundin to waive during the Muskoka 5, but that's irrelevant

It ultimately comes back down to the original point - they are risk averse, and have been paralyzed by fear for sometime. We had reports last month that they were worried that moving on from Marner would be "Kadri 2.0", which sums it up.

Think Tampa cares what Stamkos or Sergachev accomplish now that they are gone? Did Florida when they moved off Weeger and Huberdeau?

I believe that every team would weigh the outcome of a move before making it. I don't believe any team cares any longer after they move the player.
Reports are to be taken with a grain of salt unless they are directly quoting someone, IMO.

 

[Tak7]

I believe that every team would weigh the outcome of a move before making it. I don't believe any team cares any longer after they move the player.
Reports are to be taken with a grain of salt unless they are directly quoting someone, IMO.

None of this addresses the original point you and I are discussing.

 

[Lightsol]

i would not feel comfortable having marner for 11.5 instead of nylander marner is first line or pedestrian nylander scores anywhere you put him

Well, fact is, his agent is simply going to do this:
Nylander - 1 90 point season, 2 80 point seasons, doesn't PK
Marner - 3 90 point seasons, 1 80 point season, PK's frequently
And ask why the latter should take less than the former. It's why I argued they should have traded Nylander last year; I KNEW this was going to happen...

And thanks to this boneheaded contract handling, it's entirely possible in 4 years we're watching a team that's stuck in that "too good to tank, too bad to make the playoffs" limbo thanks to an aging overpaid William Nylander on an untradeable contract with an NMC...

Huh?

Tampa letting their captain / franchise leader walk for nothing, and trading away a top pairing caliber Dman, isn't 'brave' and bold?

Embracing fresh ideas, and not being afraid to try something different in the wake of the evidence before them, is what Tampa did - it's also the anti-thesis of the Maple Leafs.

Their captain / franchise leader isn't the player he used to be. You watch, we'll do the same thing with Tavares next year, because it's the same situation.

 

[Lightsol]

Stamkos is more comparable to the Leafs moving on from Sundin?

No idea what the deal with Sergachev is or the reason why he was moved.

I suspect Tampa knows more about his injury than they're letting on.

 

[ACC1224]

None of this addresses the original point you and I are discussing.

I was just replying to your post. I'll highlight the part it refers to.

 

[Dog]

I say changed it up trade Marner and get Alex Nylander!

 

[CDN24]

Stamkos is more comparable to the Leafs moving on from Sundin?

No idea what the deal with Sergachev is or the reason why he was moved.

Buyers remorse, I think they realized they paid him too much for too long at 8.5M for 7 more years. Kind of one dimensional offensive d man. His NTC clause was kicking in on July 1st so they moved him while they could. Kind of like the Subban trade way back.

Plus the return they got is decent. solves a lot of their cap issues too

 

[socko]

I think Tampa's window is pretty well closed. And Toronto's window never opened despite Dubas inheriting the young pieces and cap space that anyone somewhat competent should have turned into at least a contender.

 

[rumman]

The current GM had a chance to trade Marner and or Nylander before those NMCs kicked in.

I thought it was such a small window to do that since Pizza Boy had just landed, but now I wish he had pulled the trigger on both of them. They don’t want Marner so they’ll resign him just like they did with Styles becuae nothing says we don’t want you like shopping a player and when you can’t unload the stiff you do a 180 turn and resign him to a ridiculous contract………..

 

[ToneDog]

I thought it was such a small window to do that since Pizza Boy had just landed, but now I wish he had pulled the trigger on both of them. They don’t want Marner so they’ll resign him just like they did with Styles becuae nothing says we don’t want you like shopping a player and when you can’t unload the stiff you do a 180 turn and resign him to a ridiculous contract………..

Remember just a short while ago, some fans thought we could get Dobson+ for Marner? Good times.

Nobody is giving you much for Marner when they know he wants $12.5m on his next deal. He is not an $11m player let alone a $12.5m player. Neither is WIllie. Somebody at MLSEL please wake the f*** up.

 

[rumman]

Don't tell me no one called Tre on Marner. If no one makes a good offer they will try and re sign him. They have stated we will try and resign him but I doubt they offer 12 million. If the offer was good the Leafs would look.

Leafs are being disingenuous if they’re trying to move him and saying they want to resign him. Be honest with him, tell him you want to move him and have no intention of resigning him, make it public and see if that helps him to waive. Why would he waive if your sending mixed messages and he thinks there’s a chance of resigning here. As per usual the Leafs SNAFU everything, and people wonder why many players wouldn’t consider playing here……….

 

[rumman]

It seems that they want to give Berube a shot to make this core group work. It's probably not what most of us wanted, including myself, but that seems to be the plan. I guess Berube meeting with Marner was our first clue. Who knows if he can get something out of them, that neither Keefe, nor Babcock could. I wonder at what point they look at this, and go... ya, this isn't going to work and truly make changes? Or, are they just waiting for Tavares contract to expire, extend Marner, and try and get Tavares down low enough, that they can use that cap elsewhere?

Realistically... the D core is locked up for at least two years... except for McCabe, who shouldn't be hard to extend. If the cap goes up another $4 mil, and Tavares signs for $5 mil... that gives us $10 mil to work with. McCabe probably gets $3 mil, Marner $2 mil... so maybe $5 mil left?? Have to extend Knies too... so... hmm... maybe not that much left over to really make changes...

Lilly got 3mil, you don’t think McCabe isn’t going to want more than that? Sunshine and Lollipops projection right here folks……..

Really hoping Pelley meant what he said at that press conference back in June, about "not being in the business to sell jerseys, but to win championships"!

Have another glass of the cool refreshing drink………

 

[rumman]

I think Shanny forced him to cave to Willie's $11.5m demand. They should have waited until after the playoffs and made him a take it or leave it offer of $10mx8. Nobody was giving him $80m, let alone $92m (although some think the Hawks may have) on a 7 year deal. If he walked, you give Marner $11.5x8.

Fact is Leafs would rather overpay than allow them to walk for free (Hyman being the exception) and so they will probably pay Marner after he starts lighting it up.

That’s what a rational GM would have done, obviously Pizza Boy is cut from the same cloth as Wonder Boy………

 

[Fogelhund]

Lilly got 3mil, you don’t think McCabe isn’t going to want more than that? Sunshine and Lollipops projection right here folks……..


Have another glass of the cool refreshing drink………

View attachment 891981

I'm sorry that was above your level to understand... yes, McCabe gets an additional $3mil on the cap, to his current $5 mil. Marner gets an additional $2 mil, to his current cap. I mean read it again, and please don't tell me you are that thick....

 

[rumman]

Remember just a short while ago, some fans thought we could get Dobson+ for Marner? Good times.

Nobody is giving you much for Marner when they know he wants $12.5m on his next deal. He is not an $11m player let alone a $12.5m player. Neither is WIllie. Somebody at MLSEL please wake the f*** up.

He’s not worth the Reinhart deal imo……..

 

[thewave]

He’s not worth the Reinhart deal imo……..

Neither is Willy. Shanahan is running this team. We have a GM In Name Only