Speculation: Why are the Leafs so hesitant to change the main pieces?

[cyris]

Kind of hard to do after Shanahan called the core when Dubas was canned and told them they wouldn't be traded.

If that’s the case we know who the real problem is.
It’s been decades of mediocrity here and I see little reason to believe it’s changing under the current GM.

 

[darrylsittler27]

When did that happen?

Don't tell me no one called Tre on Marner. If no one makes a good offer they will try and re sign him. They have stated we will try and resign him but I doubt they offer 12 million. If the offer was good the Leafs would look.

 

[Racer88]

It's almost like "change" isn't the magic fix button that some people think it is.

I agree change for change’s sake is not the answer but meaningful well thought out change wil absolutely make us better. The simple fact that other teams go further and some win the cup without any of our 4 expensive forwards tell you they are not necessary to win.
My point was that Dubas had multiple chances to improve the team by t swapping out the surrounding players and couldn’t make the notably better. Tre has had 1 try and failed just like I expect Next year will see more of the same. At some point we all will have to admit that they are just not able to get it done. Individually they all have talent but collectively they cannot. Is it a consequence of the cap implications or just that they simple cannot do it

 

[Peasy]

I agree change for change’s sake is not the answer but meaningful well thought out change wil absolutely make us better. The simple fact that other teams go further and some win the cup without any of our 4 expensive forwards tell you they are not necessary to win.
My point was that Dubas had multiple chances to improve the team by t swapping out the surrounding players and couldn’t make the notably better. Tre has had 1 try and failed just like I expect Next year will see more of the same. At some point we all will have to admit that they are just not able to get it done. Individually they all have talent but collectively they cannot. Is it a consequence of the cap implications or just that they simple cannot do it

Some people will believe they can get it done eventually up until the moment Matthews walks. If Marner re-signs, I think it will be a miracle that Matthews is here beyond the next 4 years (because we will not win shit during those year).

 

[Captain Crunch]

Habs fan coming in peace. Not looking for drama, just a question since yesterday and this morning.

I look at the Bolts the last two days. They went to three Stanley cup finals and won 2 out of 3. They then lose two first rounds.

The team is not standing pat and riding with the same core after all their success.

Moving up a young dman who yes got injured in Sergachev. They cleaned up their mistake with Jeannot. Stamkos their captain coming off a 40 goal season is likely not to re-sign. They want to do what the fans of Toronto want with Marner to take a cap reduction with term. I know their ages and one is a UFA but they tend to want to move up unless getting the player for Pennie’s on the dollar over term.

But speaking of age the leafs then are trying to lock up 35 year old Tanev to term.

I just was wondering where I know Leafs fans are split on Marner and changes needed. Why is it the Lightning are willing to tear down a portion of their team to re-tool which they acknowledge they need to get better and this after 2 years removed from 3 consecutive years of Stanley cup appearances all the while keeping the same coach and such as well.

Again not looking for trouble just a honest question why the Leafs are hesitant to try something new to get over that potential hump.

My take on that is because of Dubas' and Shanahan's total ineptitude on how they handled the contracts of Marner, and now Matthews and Nylander. These three got everything they wanted when they signed their contracts - max $$ amounts and NMCs. Last summer they supposedly tried to see if they could trade Nylander, but there were no suitable offers, and so far it appears to be the same way with Marner (although in all fairness, who in heck wants to pay a winger $12 million on his next contract???). At least if they had tried to trade Marner last year before his NMC kicked in, they probably would have been able to. Dubas is gone, so now it is all on Shanahan, because of his unwillingness to change the core when he had the chance. I am so glad he will soon be gone!!!

 

[Racer88]

Some people will believe they can get it done eventually up until the moment Matthews walks. If Marner re-signs, I think it will be a miracle that Matthews is here beyond the next 4 years (because we will not win shit during those year).

My worry exactly

 

[Trapper]

My worry exactly

If we haven’t win anything in the next 4 years everyone can go please. Fold the tents and start again.

You know what else makes people want to stay. Winning. Like Stamkos said when he signed last time in Tampa. They have a job to finish because they knew they were right there. After 10 years, this team hasn’t even got out of the starting gate.

Who wants to keep these guys if in the next 4 years we have 1 playoff round win. Please tell me you don’t want to keep anyone after that.

 

[Racer88]

If we haven’t win anything in the next 4 years everyone can go please. Fold the tents and start again.

You know what else makes people want to stay. Winning. Like Stamkos said when he signed last time in Tampa. They have a job to finish because they knew they were right there. After 10 years, this team hasn’t even got out of the starting gate.

Who wants to keep these guys if in the next 4 years we have 1 playoff round win. Please tell me you don’t want to keep anyone after that.

Agree 100%. If we haven’t had some major success in the next 4 years we will be doing another tank and rebuild.
In the shorter term if we don’t go to the conference final then Shanny and Tre should be shown the door

 

[Captain Crunch]

I agree change for change’s sake is not the answer but meaningful well thought out change wil absolutely make us better. The simple fact that other teams go further and some win the cup without any of our 4 expensive forwards tell you they are not necessary to win.
My point was that Dubas had multiple chances to improve the team by t swapping out the surrounding players and couldn’t make the notably better. Tre has had 1 try and failed just like I expect Next year will see more of the same. At some point we all will have to admit that they are just not able to get it done. Individually they all have talent but collectively they cannot. Is it a consequence of the cap implications or just that they simple cannot do it

Personally I feel that the main reason is because they simply cannot do it, but the cap implications certainly play into it as well. They are taking up too much of the cap space, in other words they are being paid too much!

It seems obvious to me that the reason they were unable to trade Nylander last summer, and probably the same with Marner this summer, is that MLSE places more value on these players than the other teams do, whether that's right or wrong. Tre has said numerous times that many teams agree that Marner is a tremendous player and would help their team. But the problem is how many teams will be willing to pay him at least $12 million on his next contract? In comparison to other top RWers, he is definitely being overpaid. The big question is whether MLSE will let him walk for nothing next year, or will they resign him?

Earlier I said Shanahan deserves all the blame for this mess, but I guess it ultimately goes to the knuckleheads at MLSE who were making the final decisions when these contracts were given out!

1. Confirmation bias. They actually think they are close. Changing the core would admit a mistake which would cost Shanny his job.

2. Actually difficult to do. You're going to lose a MM trade. Takes balls and vision.

3. MM holds the cards here. If he doesn't want to be traded he won't.

Thankfully getting rid of Shanahan is already in progress! Unfortunately the damage has already been done!

 

[Captain Crunch]

It's not NHL 24, you can't just trade Marner for Robert Thomas or Kirill Kaprizov like it's a video game and we don't want to sell Marner for prospects. If there was a trade for Marner that made sense where we could get a 22-28 year old 75+ point forward in return, they would probably pull the trigger.

I can't see that happening. How many teams will be willing to shell out at least $12 million for him on his next contract? F U Shanahan and MLSE for causing this whole mess!!!

 

[Fogelhund]

It seems that they want to give Berube a shot to make this core group work. It's probably not what most of us wanted, including myself, but that seems to be the plan. I guess Berube meeting with Marner was our first clue. Who knows if he can get something out of them, that neither Keefe, nor Babcock could. I wonder at what point they look at this, and go... ya, this isn't going to work and truly make changes? Or, are they just waiting for Tavares contract to expire, extend Marner, and try and get Tavares down low enough, that they can use that cap elsewhere?

Realistically... the D core is locked up for at least two years... except for McCabe, who shouldn't be hard to extend. If the cap goes up another $4 mil, and Tavares signs for $5 mil... that gives us $10 mil to work with. McCabe probably gets $3 mil, Marner $2 mil... so maybe $5 mil left?? Have to extend Knies too... so... hmm... maybe not that much left over to really make changes...

 

[Captain Crunch]

MLSE is a for profit business 1st, 2nd, 3rd...859th, etc.

Keeping the team together ensures they are consistently good and have marketable superstars. This is what's important when the goals are all money based and not actually about winning a cup.

Really hoping Pelley meant what he said at that press conference back in June, about "not being in the business to sell jerseys, but to win championships"!

 

[Captain Crunch]

1. Makes a lot of sense and I understand that. Look at Brisebois though acknowledging the mistake with Jeannot and did what he had to do.

2. I think there is multiple possibilities out there to trade say a Marner.

3. I feel like the team if they get out slow as an example on the season, and him not budging and will walk and bring nothing back to the organization, it could be a long season for him. Though on the other hand he could turn out to be a hero by staying if everything finally turns the tides.

In all fairness, you can't compare Jeannot to Marner. Two totally different types of players.

On a different note, what do you think of the contract the Habs just gave Slafkovsky?

 

[ToneDog]

It seems that they want to give Berube a shot to make this core group work. It's probably not what most of us wanted, including myself, but that seems to be the plan. I guess Berube meeting with Marner was our first clue. Who knows if he can get something out of them, that neither Keefe, nor Babcock could. I wonder at what point they look at this, and go... ya, this isn't going to work and truly make changes? Or, are they just waiting for Tavares contract to expire, extend Marner, and try and get Tavares down low enough, that they can use that cap elsewhere?

Realistically... the D core is locked up for at least two years... except for McCabe, who shouldn't be hard to extend. If the cap goes up another $4 mil, and Tavares signs for $5 mil... that gives us $10 mil to work with. McCabe probably gets $3 mil, Marner $2 mil... so maybe $5 mil left?? Have to extend Knies too... so... hmm... maybe not that much left over to really make changes...

Marner @ $13m would put the cherry on top of total incompetence. Makes me want to puke just thinking about it.

 

[1specter]

Having a board own this team really f***ing sucks. They have completely mistimed pivotal moments for this franchise with their own mindless bureaucracy.

 

[ACC1224]

Having a board own this team really f***ing sucks. They have completely mistimed pivotal moments for this franchise with their own mindless bureaucracy.

The Team has always had a Board. Any examples of issues they have caused?

 

[bodechek]

I cannot see this team extending the current contract of Marner. I know you will not get the same point value in a trade, but you will pick up other tangibles such as grittiness; willing to take a hit and willing to go to the dirty areas for the puck. Those are not on stats sheets, but they are just as important in overall team play.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I agree change for change’s sake is not the answer but meaningful well thought out change wil absolutely make us better.

Meaningful, well thought out change is what we were doing until last offseason, and it was making us better.
Unnecessary, poorly thought out change is what we started doing last offseason, and continuing into this offseason, and it has made us worse.
Destructive, reactionary change for change's sake is what fans on here have been advocating for.

The simple fact that other teams go further and some win the cup without any of our 4 expensive forwards tell you they are not necessary to win.

No specific player is "necessary to win". These players just help us more than any realistic alternative within that cap space.

 

[Gilmour1996]

Pelley isn't a hockey man so his big fear is not having a hockey man below him to do the job Shanny is doing. Pelley can't do it himself temporarily so he needs to have Shanny's replacement ready to take over right away if Shanny is fired. In the meantime, Pelley will run it back with Shanny.

 

[ToneDog]

Having a board own this team really f***ing sucks. They have completely mistimed pivotal moments for this franchise with their own mindless bureaucracy.

Makes no difference. The Leafs are a cash cow. You need to find an owner that covets a SC for Toronto over making money. Good Luck.

 

[Trapper]

Marner @ $13m would put the cherry on top of total incompetence. Makes me want to puke just thinking about it.

Here you go. You will need it when they do re-sign Marner and give Tavares 7 x 4 added to Matthews/Nylander/Rielly, essentially running it back until at least 2027-28.

 

[Roo]

This is the only answer for the Marner situation

Each of the ‘core four’ have a nmc

 

[ToneDog]

Pelley isn't a hockey man so his big fear is not having a hockey man below him to do the job Shanny is doing. Pelley can't do it himself temporarily so he needs to have Shanny's replacement ready to take over right away if Shanny is fired. In the meantime, Pelley will run it back with Shanny.

And next year Shanny's replacement will run it back for the same reasons.

 

[Captain Crunch]

If that’s the case we know who the real problem is.
It’s been decades of mediocrity here and I see little reason to believe it’s changing under the current GM.

I am holding judgement on Tre. When he was hired last year, his hands were basically tied as Shanahan had already prioritized what he had to do over the summer. This year it's plain to see that Tre is in charge of what changes need to be done. It was such a welcoming sight to see the look on Shanahan's face during that press conference when Pelley was introduced as the new CEO. He knew he was responsible for the mess they were in, and that his days as Leafs' President would soon be coming to an end.

With the changes made on defense, I believe it is a step in the right direction. I also like that Domi is coming back. As far as Marner is concerned, it's hard for me to see a team who will be willing to pay him at least $12 million on his next contract, but here's to hoping some GM will be stupid enough to do it!

 

[Lightsol]

Marner @ $13m would put the cherry on top of total incompetence. Makes me want to puke just thinking about it.

Well, the floor is $11.5m, and you can thank our current moron of a GM for that.