Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

Pavels Dog

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If all Stevie does is hit on only his first rounders this team is stuck in mediocreville until Larkin drops off, then we're looking at tanking for a 1C. Let's do a projected roster with the first rounders:

(DBC) - Larkin - Ray
'25 pick - Danielson - MBN
? - Kasper -?
(Mazur) - ? - ?

Ed - Mo
'26 pick - ASP
(AlJo) - ?

Cossa
(Gus)

Looks like a bubble team to me even with 4 players not acquired in the first round. Also explains why I keep saying Danielson has to be a homerun for this team to make the playoffs.
I don't see that makes sense though. Are you expecting a bonafide #1C to come out of the later rounds for us?
The placement of the questionmarks are positions that would be nice to fill with some late round picks, but they are in depth roles. That's not difficult to find in FA or via trade, and we already have guys playing those roles that you for some reason deleted.
 

Gniwder

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I don't see that makes sense though. Are you expecting a bonafide #1C to come out of the later rounds for us?
The placement of the questionmarks are positions that would be nice to fill with some late round picks, but they are in depth roles. That's not difficult to find in FA or via trade, and we already have guys playing those roles that you for some reason deleted.
Yeah, and the team is mediocre. It will continue to be mediocre unless a late round pick turns out to be a homerun, and I'm not seeing it will the current crop of prospects. Stevie needs a Robertson/Datsyuk/Z/Benn/Palat type pick in order to get deep in the playoffs.

Mind you, I liked Plante/Becher/Buch picks, just need more of those instead of Cleveland/Phelan/James/WHipple etc. I don't think any of those I've mentioned are gonna be game breakers. I suppose Finnie is really tearing it up now though.

Based on that lineup, I'm almost certain Stevie goes after a center in the first round this draft. He's gotta start planning for Larkin's decline 3 or so years from now.
 
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Henkka

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Yeah, and the team is mediocre. It will continue to be mediocre unless a late round pick turns out to be a homerun, and I'm not seeing it will the current crop of prospects. Stevie needs a Robertson/Datsyuk/Z/Benn/Palat type pick in order to get deep in the playoffs.

Mind you, I liked Plante/Becher/Buch picks, just need more of those instead of Cleveland/Phelan/James/WHipple etc. I don't think any of those I've mentioned are gonna be game breakers. I suppose Finnie is really tearing it up now though.

Based on that lineup, I'm almost certain Stevie goes after a center in the first round this draft. He's gotta start planning for Larkin's decline 3 or so years from now.

Why are thinkin like this? Why it has to be a low round pick?

Four of our 1st rounders aren't on the team yet. MBN, Danielson, ASP, Cossa. Those will make the REAL jump. Low rounders are just wild cards as well as getting decent UFAs.
 

Ulysses31

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guess some ppl half glass empty types, pretty optimistic here. got 2, maybe 3 (asp) 1st pair D. whose to say aljo aint a 4d that could pair with asp or seider if break up ed seider. buium, wallinder, tuomisto potenital to b solid bottom pair d. chance wallinder or buium better than bottom pair

since sy havent hit for certain on a F besides raymond but still a lot of runway. some players b late bloomers. even a guy like ras or berg have more potential imo

then cossa n trey gonna b huge in net
 

RED WINGS STOMP

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For those who expect a big time prospect to tear it up right away, look at Connor McMichael's progression with the Caps.

Could be something similar with Kasper and Danielson, where they need a season or two before busting out.
 

The Zermanator

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Jan 21, 2013
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If all Stevie does is hit on only his first rounders this team is stuck in mediocreville until Larkin drops off, then we're looking at tanking for a 1C. Let's do a projected roster with the first rounders:

(DBC) - Larkin - Ray
'25 pick - Danielson - MBN
? - Kasper -?
(Mazur) - ? - ?

Ed - Mo
'26 pick - ASP
(AlJo) - ?

Cossa
(Gus)

Looks like a bubble team to me even with 4 players not acquired in the first round. Also explains why I keep saying Danielson has to be a homerun for this team to make the playoffs.
You have zero basis for making the assumptions you're making here.

- Raymond and Seider aren't even done developing yet.
- Edvinsson already looks great 35 games into his NHL career and the sky is the limit for him.
- ASP is trending to be a very special player too.
- Cossa has the potential to be a brick wall, especially behind the defense that is shaping up.
- We have no idea what Danielson, Kasper, and MBN will become, but they all have great potential.

Raymond and Seider are already monsters, and still with room to improve. Cossa is coming along great. ASP is coming along great as well. Those are 4 very big pieces right there.

A team with 3 monsters on the back-end, a monster in net, a monster on the wing, a monster at centre (Larkin), along with a high quality supporting cast made up of Danielson, Kasper, MBN, and Debrincat does not strike me as a mediocre team.

Edit: And that's not even considering what guys like Augustine, Mazur, and Wallinder (and others) will become, if anything.
 
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norrisnick

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Why... would we trade two 1sts for a 30yo forward making $8.5M? Or would we let Trotz undo his Askarov blunder trading for a guy that's working on the worst season of his career after having the worst season of his career last season?
 

Steve Yzerlland

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wingsfannn919191

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People are desperate crying after offensive players, but this team is drafted through defence and goaltending.

That will also be the future identity.
Might be the future but we won't win without some breakout offensive stars in the mix. Think yzerman forgets he was an offensive player (yes turned 2 way but can still put big numbers) as well as fedorov and Shanahan

If we're not going to finish with another top draft pick this year we should try to look at struggling teams like buffalo and anaheim and make a play for someone.

Zegras on the top line with Larkin and raymond can be something and his lack of product should bring his cost down. Doubt yzerman will make a move though but I think he can be a ppg guy
 

Twinger

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I cant help but see this team as an Islander/Wild/(make playoffs and get dumped)and best case Nashville of the past type team.

We have the some solid pieces but I just dont know if we have that next gear in terms of players or coaching. I have a very hard time seeing Lalonde coaching in the playoffs

If were building a Defensive team we wont know for 2 or 3 more years.

Whatever we're doing we will need some draft luck (every team does)
 
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Gniwder

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For those who expect a big time prospect to tear it up right away, look at Connor McMichael's progression with the Caps.

Could be something similar with Kasper and Danielson, where they need a season or two before busting out.
Well they also sent McMichael back down to the AHL for a year in his D+4 season. Kasper is on his D+3 season.

What's driving his scoring is that the Caps put both Protas and McMichael on the wing, not center. McMichael is playing with PLD and Wilson. It's not like he came out from nowhere, he scored almost 1 goal per game in the OHL his D+1 season. Last 2 full NHL seasons (plus one in Hershey), he was playing center. Bottom 6 center in his first season IIRC because they had Kuz, Eller, and Backstrom for half a season. It's hard to rack up points playing bottom 6 center.

I already suggested putting Kasper on the wing with Compher and Ray. He's guaranteed to at least get some assists because Ray can shoot, and Kasper would probably be the team's best forechecker if he shifted to the wing, and fast enough to get back defensively. He can play the role that Bert played, but without shitting the bed defensively like Ambertuzzi.

Getting off topic, but I'm really surprised at how well the Caps collection of spare parts and castaways are gelling together. Carbery has some out of the box thinking with his lines. Protas plays center only on PK while playing top line wing. Wilson bumped down to second line. Split up his top 2 defenders, getting production from his 4th line.


We'll see how it goes when Ovie cools down. Can't imagine he's gonna keep scoring at this pace. Everything he shoots goes in.
 
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SantosHalper

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Why... would we trade two 1sts for a 30yo forward making $8.5M? Or would we let Trotz undo his Askarov blunder trading for a guy that's working on the worst season of his career after having the worst season of his career last season?
To complete the trade and what's the problem? PPG player that makes 8.5 and whos signed through his prime years, i'll take that.

I'd rather take Forsberg than Saros but people here been quite vocal about improving our goalie situation. Just an idea....
So glad you aren't the GM no offense but these deals are terrible...
What's the point to start hoarding picks now? Realistically Wings will be picking in the middle of the pack in the next draft's, those players won't play a game in NHL until 2029/2030. Where Forsberg would have helped Wings win hockey games. And chances getting a PPG player with those picks are slim to none.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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To complete the trade and what's the problem? PPG player that makes 8.5 and whos signed through his prime years, i'll take that.

I'd rather take Forsberg than Saros but people here been quite vocal about improving our goalie situation. Just an idea....

What's the point to start hoarding picks now? Realistically Wings will be picking in the middle of the pack in the next draft's, those players won't play a game in NHL until 2029/2030. Where Forsberg would have helped Wings win hockey games. And chances getting a PPG player with those picks are slim to none.
He is old. If I'm giving up all that I want a player back in Raymond and Seiders age range. Forsberg makes the playoffs for the Wings and maybe win a round. By the time we contend he is like Kane.(age wise) and Forsberg isn't even available. Nashville just made big splashes in FA they aren't trading him for picks unless they go full rebuild which would be the exact opposite of their reasoning 3 months ago...
 
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norrisnick

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To complete the trade and what's the problem? PPG player that makes 8.5 and whos signed through his prime years, i'll take that.

I'd rather take Forsberg than Saros but people here been quite vocal about improving our goalie situation. Just an idea....
How many of those prime years are still left? We could very easily be getting Erat'd...

I mean, during the offseason, yeah. Right now we are getting some of the best goaltending in the league with Talbot and Lyon. And we have Cossa/Augustine on tap. Trading for a 29yo with 8 more years on his deal seems like a waste of assets.
 

Gniwder

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To complete the trade and what's the problem? PPG player that makes 8.5 and whos signed through his prime years, i'll take that.

I'd rather take Forsberg than Saros but people here been quite vocal about improving our goalie situation. Just an idea....

What's the point to start hoarding picks now? Realistically Wings will be picking in the middle of the pack in the next draft's, those players won't play a game in NHL until 2029/2030. Where Forsberg would have helped Wings win hockey games. And chances getting a PPG player with those picks are slim to none.
Forsberg plays wing even though he's been listed as center his whole career. He's taken less than 100 faceoffs his entire career, which is less than Kasper who has 9 NHL games. This team doesn't need a wing, it needs a 2C.

2 first rounders for a winger? God forbid I agree with NorrisNick, but no freakin' way. People didn't like me harping about Horvat, and that deal (Hronek + Kasper) sounds a heck of a lot more appealing than an aging winger who's an average skater in his prime. By the end of his contract he's gonna be almost as slow as Perron, and his production will drop off like a rock if Compher is his center. We all know Ray, Kane, and DBC struggle with Compher.

The issue with the offense is that Copp/Compher/Kasper/Joey/Raz/Fisher can't create offense. Every winger that's played with Larkin scores more, even guys like Perron, Kubalik, Bert, and no effort Mantha. Look at their stats with and without DBoss. The team needs a 2C, I've been saying it since Z retired. (I'd list them, but it's too depressing)

I haven't heard the grumbling in a while, but saying DBoss isn't a true 1C is ridiculous. You look at that list of wingers, and it's almost Crosby territory as far as raising the game of a mediocre player. Poor kid has never been given much to work with.
 

SantosHalper

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He is old. If I'm giving up all that I want a player back in Raymond and Seiders age range. Forsberg makes the playoffs for the Wings and maybe win a round. By the time we contend he is like Kane.(age wise) and Forsberg isn't even available. Nashville just made big splashes in FA they aren't trading him for picks unless they go full rebuild which would be the exact opposite of their reasoning 3 months ago...
Screenshot 2024-11-08 at 18-47-41 Trotz 'I'm going to start our rebuild plan' if Preds don't g...png


"Old" :laugh: Forsberg is 2 years older than Larkin. People here has wanted more skill and now possibly there is a proven PPG player available. But Forsberg is "old", probably the most HFboards thing to say, when a player turns 30 he's basically dead already.

You gotta have some realism here, no one is trading PPG players in their early 20's. By the time Wings are contending Forsberg could be like Kane or he could be like Pavelski as well. But one thing is certain the 2025 #16OA pick and #18OA pick won't be there to help in anyway, if at all. We know what we get in Forsberg, player in his prime. If there is possibility to get him, there is no point hold back. Trade the picks and that way we get to keep our top prospects.
How many of those prime years are still left? We could very easily be getting Erat'd...

I mean, during the offseason, yeah. Right now we are getting some of the best goaltending in the league with Talbot and Lyon. And we have Cossa/Augustine on tap. Trading for a 29yo with 8 more years on his deal seems like a waste of assets.
Saros will bounce back but you make good points. Wings got great goalie prospects and it's not necessary to trade for Saros. Im patient enough to wait for Cossa. But there is no reason not to trade for Forsberg, if he becomes available. It's not like the Wings have PPG players growing in trees.
Forsberg plays wing even though he's been listed as center his whole career. He's taken less than 100 faceoffs his entire career, which is less than Kasper who has 9 NHL games. This team doesn't need a wing, it needs a 2C.

2 first rounders for a winger? God forbid I agree with NorrisNick, but no freakin' way. People didn't like me harping about Horvat, and that deal (Hronek + Kasper) sounds a heck of a lot more appealing than an aging winger who's an average skater in his prime. By the end of his contract he's gonna be almost as slow as Perron, and his production will drop off like a rock if Compher is his center. We all know Ray, Kane, and DBC struggle with Compher.

The issue with the offense is that Copp/Compher/Kasper/Joey/Raz/Fisher can't create offense. Every winger that's played with Larkin scores more, even guys like Perron, Kubalik, Bert, and no effort Mantha. Look at their stats with and without DBoss. The team needs a 2C, I've been saying it since Z retired. (I'd list them, but it's too depressing)

I haven't heard the grumbling in a while, but saying DBoss isn't a true 1C is ridiculous. You look at that list of wingers, and it's almost Crosby territory as far as raising the game of a mediocre player. Poor kid has never been given much to work with.
You believe that young players can't develop any more? We have 2 good center prospects, whom more than a good chance to become 2C. Within 2 years all the top prospects will be in the lineup, give them couple years time to adjust and there still be couple years left of Forsberg's prime.

You say that we don't need a winger but you also say that our forwards can't create offense, all that Forsberg does is create offence. Big body with great hands and who can protect the puck and Forsberg skates just fine, he's no McDavid but good enough. Horvat is 1 year younger than Forsberg, so he wouldn't age badly as Forsberg? Forsberg could age like Kane/Perron but like i said he could age as Pavelski but certainly those two 1st round picks wouldn't help the Wings until 2030's and that's if they can even make it.

How conveniently you say that Larkin hasn't been given anyone to work with and you also think it's bad idea to trade for Forsberg :huh:. People want the team improved and now possibly there could be a PPG player signed through his prime years available and people are like "nah.. he's old and winger". But sure let's keep daydreaming about Pettersson/Draisaitl and keep complaining about how Larkin's prime is wasted, because there is no skill in the team.
 
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19 for president

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In a vacuum, if you are rounding up futures for a guy you need to find someone in the 24-28 range and if it is at the end of that range said player needs to be better than Larkin. Maybe I'd consider it for a true center of equal level to Larkin even if they were a bit older because I do think that would be a massive game changer for this team. I don't think Forsberg is that guy. By himself, he's too old and not a center.

If say Yzerman managed to address the 2C spot and work out a capable top 4 defense then adding a guy like Forsberg could make sense. If its a one and done deal, which it would likely be as proposed (2 1sts doesn't leave a ton left to deal) then I just don't see how adding a winger makes sense.

Saros I think makes zero sense with Augustine and Cossa knocking at the door. I never like the idea of trading for a goalie that has typically played behind a solid defense his entire career and expecting he'd put up similar numbers behind a bad defense. Goalies in general are too up and down to invest major money + major trade assets into. Maybe as a last desperate piece on a true contender but overall I think its bad policy. Also why I'm against using 1st rounders on goalies.

I'd be curious on a guy maybe like Fabbro. A upcoming UFA. 26 so maybe a solid transitional D for us to help bring in some of these young guys for a few years. LD might be a solid partner for Seider and allow us to have Ed anchor the 2nd pair.
 

Henkka

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I don't see Fabbro in here. Yzerman will want a physical and big RHD. Because Pellikka is small and you don't two small sized guys on same side. Thats why Hronek was gone.

Just prepare for Trouba. One way or another, he will be Red Wing at next 10 months.
 

Winger98

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If there's anyone I want from Nashville it's Josi. He could carry the 2nd pair this year, he could be a great vet partner for ASP for 3 years after that. But I think the cost to bring him in would be too ridiculously high.

I have a hard time seeing us really line up with a Nashville fire sale. We need someone to do this in a few years.
 

Gniwder

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View attachment 927838

"Old" :laugh: Forsberg is 2 years older than Larkin. People here has wanted more skill and now possibly there is a proven PPG player available. But Forsberg is "old", probably the most HFboards thing to say, when a player turns 30 he's basically dead already.

You gotta have some realism here, no one is trading PPG players in their early 20's. By the time Wings are contending Forsberg could be like Kane or he could be like Pavelski as well. But one thing is certain the 2025 #16OA pick and #18OA pick won't be there to help in anyway, if at all. We know what we get in Forsberg, player in his prime. If there is possibility to get him, there is no point hold back. Trade the picks and that way we get to keep our top prospects.

Saros will bounce back but you make good points. Wings got great goalie prospects and it's not necessary to trade for Saros. Im patient enough to wait for Cossa. But there is no reason not to trade for Forsberg, if he becomes available. It's not like the Wings have PPG players growing in trees.

You believe that young players can't develop any more? We have 2 good center prospects, whom more than a good chance to become 2C. Within 2 years all the top prospects will be in the lineup, give them couple years time to adjust and there still be couple years left of Forsberg's prime.

You say that we don't need a winger but you also say that our forwards can't create offense, all that Forsberg does is create offence. Big body with great hands and who can protect the puck and Forsberg skates just fine, he's no McDavid but good enough. Horvat is 1 year younger than Forsberg, so he wouldn't age badly as Forsberg? Forsberg could age like Kane/Perron but like i said he could age as Pavelski but certainly those two 1st round picks wouldn't help the Wings until 2030's and that's if they can even make it.

How conveniently you say that Larkin hasn't been given anyone to work with and you also think it's bad idea to trade for Forsberg :huh:. People want the team improved and now possibly there could be a PPG player signed through his prime years available and people are like "nah.. he's old and winger". But sure let's keep daydreaming about Pettersson/Draisaitl and keep complaining about how Larkin's prime is wasted, because there is no skill in the team.
That's a lot of arguing for a trade that'll never happen, lol
 

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