Pre-Game Talk: Week to Get Back (To Where You Once Belong) [@VAN; @CGY; @EDM]

[henchman21]

but still, i don't get trading him because we wouldn't get #1 back in a trade. might (likely) not even get as good player back considering his age, injury history and contract.



they also might go 9-3 and the core didn't step up. but depth players got some garbage goals and they got great goaltending and won going full turtle enough games. or they might stumble but the core played great but rest of the team was crappy and other teams just had goalies standing on their heads.

I'm not clamoring to trade EJ either. If somebody like Hamonic could be brought in (huge if), then EJ would be a tradable asset. IMO Varly and/or Barrie are the two most likely to be traded.

Possible, but I don't think it is realistic that the Avs go 9-3 without at least some of the core stepping up. I think performance matters here. If the core or players within the core can't hold up, then I think some moves could be made there.

 

[tigervixxxen]

What I don't understand is how this sentiment is any less conspiracy theory than some of the other stuff we discuss on here as possibilities.

No one is denying the possibility, or the danger depending on how you look at it.

I just don't like "Hes basically saying" and other comments pretending anything assumed is remotely definitive just because everyone's hair is on fire and in panic mode.

Personally there is nothing wrong with Roy evaluating his core and seeing who steps up to the pressure and who does not. However there is still a value factor and a business based market when it comes to these players. I doubt they are ok being on the losing end of overall value in a trade just because they don't make the playoffs.

If you're not worried about that, then why worry? Whatever we lose will just be replaced with another asset or assets in an attempt to take the team in the right direction.

Either way, so what? It's not like they're going to trade MacKinnon for 3 months of negotiating time with Stamkos or something. (Jumps up and down on a piece of wood)

I'll worry when we make a trade and I hate the return, as of now Roy says too many words with an agenda, or that end up pretty shallow later in actual circumstance for me to get that worried about it.

Saying don't worry about something that hasn't happened kinda takes away the whole purpose of this board, doesn't it?

When Roy is putting real words about it directly from him, it's something people are going to have a reaction to. They may or may not follow through with it but the THREAT is real, that's something at least. I don't think they make a trade for the sake of it and don't care about the return but it's very difficult to make an even value hockey trade and especially to get it to where the contracts work out too. If they have to move someone and don't slot in an equal player it will be another step back. And it's disturbing to me with all these steps back they've had to make they won't get real with share this team is right now and that they haven't built anything. They have the same damn core they were given. Why don't they point the finger at themselves and ask what have they given this team to improve and if those were the right additions. How they can evaluate this team without that baffles me. And I'm not talking about like Beauchemin, I mean guys THEY drafted and developed.

 

[henchman21]

Saying don't worry about something that hasn't happened kinda takes away the whole purpose of this board, doesn't it?

When Roy is putting real words about it directly from him, it's something people are going to have a reaction to. They may or may not follow through with it but the THREAT is real, that's something at least. I don't think they make a trade for the sake of it and don't care about the return but it's very difficult to make an even value hockey trade and especially to get it to where the contracts work out too. If they have to move someone and don't slot in an equal player it will be another step back. And it's disturbing to me with all these steps back they've had to make they won't get real with share this team is right now and that they haven't built anything. They have the same damn core they were given. Why don't they point the finger at themselves and ask what have they given this team to improve and if those were the right additions. How they can evaluate this team without that baffles me. And I'm not talking about like Beauchemin, I mean guys THEY drafted and developed.

You are assuming there.

 

[Tralfamadore]

I could honestly see Roy moving MacKinnon. He still has tremendous value and Roy has been vocal of his problems with him in the past. If he truly feels that Nate is not progressing as was expected I could see him getting moved for a player in a similar position. Roy has the type of arrogance to make a move of that caliber as well.

If he is looking at moving a core player I can't see it being a defenseman and I don't see it being the captain or our best player in Duchene.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Moving MacK should be the absolute last thing they ever do. You can't win in this league without an elite player, and he's their best shot at it.

 

[tigervixxxen]

You are assuming there.

They aren't on the team so how can that be part of the evaluation?

MacKinnon was their guy but apparently he's the untouchable one. I just mean they haven't even built this team yet.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Moving MacK should be the absolute last thing they ever do. You can't win in this league without an elite player, and he's their best shot at it.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with it but it seems very plausible to me.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with it but it seems very plausible to me.

Why would it be plausible, though? What player in a similar position with similar potential would be on the block? There's no way the Avs would get the right value back.

It'd be just like the Bruins trading Seguin.

 

[henchman21]

They aren't on the team so how can that be part of the evaluation?

MacK and Bigras are on the team, and an organization can evaluate beyond their current team. They can look at how Zadorov (though he obviously wasn't drafted by us) and Rantanen are developing and how they fit in to the team next year. They can see how the rest of the classes are progressing as well.

They have already made a change on how this team drafts and who is responsible for leading the scouts and made a front office change. To say they are not evaluating themselves just seems wrong to me given the evidence.

MacK is probably the only core player that is safe. He is progressing and he has the highest ceiling on the team. They won't give that up at 20. Just look at the mistake that Boston made with Seguin... the Avs are not risking that.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Why would it be plausible, though? What player in a similar position with similar potential would be on the block? There's no way the Avs would get the right value back.

It'd be just like the Bruins trading Seguin.

When I say plausible I mean from our end. I don't seem them moving a defenseman and I don't see the captain or our best player being moved. The value on the return is where things become difficult.

Ya it would be exactly like that trade unfortunately. However, I don't see that degree of elite in MacKinnon. I think he'll be in that Kessel level of elite which is simply not good enough for a team to consistently depend on.

I'd have no idea where to start on what would come back for MacKinnon. I honestly don't even want to think about it.

 

[Hesher]

Why would it be plausible, though? What player in a similar position with similar potential would be on the block? There's no way the Avs would get the right value back.

It'd be just like the Bruins trading Seguin.

This. Trading Mack would be a big mistake.

 

[Ararana]

I'd gut the whole team and rebuild around Mack before trading him.

If a core player gets dealt this offseason, my money is on Duchene. Just a gut feeling, he'll probably net a good return given his career year in goals and good contract. Then we could put our attention on obtaining a two way number 2 center, assuming that's not what their grooming Rantanen for. I don't know if Rantanen has the defensive skills for that role though.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Saying don't worry about something that hasn't happened kinda takes away the whole purpose of this board, doesn't it?

When Roy is putting real words about it directly from him, it's something people are going to have a reaction to. They may or may not follow through with it but the THREAT is real, that's something at least. I don't think they make a trade for the sake of it and don't care about the return but it's very difficult to make an even value hockey trade and especially to get it to where the contracts work out too. If they have to move someone and don't slot in an equal player it will be another step back. And it's disturbing to me with all these steps back they've had to make they won't get real with share this team is right now and that they haven't built anything. They have the same damn core they were given. Why don't they point the finger at themselves and ask what have they given this team to improve and if those were the right additions. How they can evaluate this team without that baffles me. And I'm not talking about like Beauchemin, I mean guys THEY drafted and developed.

So they have to draft and develop the player for it to count?

They have developed EJ, Varly, Barrie, and Duchene to some extent. They're working on MacKinnon, Bigras, Zadorov, Pickard, and Rantanen as well. Not sure how much Landeskog has developed since they've been here positively or negatively. Personally with him, he is what he is for the most part IMO.

(Looking at that second list, you have two forwards, two D, and a goalie which is interesting)

I'm not sure how they haven't built anything. How many players are still on the NHL roster since before Roy and Sakic took over, and how many of them are core players?

I do think drastic changes this off-season are a bit premature personally, but the exact reasons you stated as to why the right trades are difficult, is exactly why I'm skeptical they can or will make changes to the core without taking a serious step back that they don't want to make. I see the smoke, I'm skeptical of the fire.

The only realistic trade I can see is them maybe attempting to build the defense by sacrificing one of the forwards again. Which I know some feel is just a lateral move. However that depends on how you view how important certain aspects are to a hockey team.

 

[tigervixxxen]

MacK and Bigras are on the team, and an organization can evaluate beyond their current team. They can look at how Zadorov (though he obviously wasn't drafted by us) and Rantanen are developing and how they fit in to the team next year. They can see how the rest of the classes are progressing as well.

They have already made a change on how this team drafts and who is responsible for leading the scouts and made a front office change. To say they are not evaluating themselves just seems wrong to me given the evidence.

MacK is probably the only core player that is safe. He is progressing and he has the highest ceiling on the team. They won't give that up at 20. Just look at the mistake that Boston made with Seguin... the Avs are not risking that.

We aren't talking drafting and other FO moves but the performance of the team is what's in question here. I don't see how they can say it isn't good enough when they haven't even finished the job.

 

[Tralfamadore]

We aren't talking drafting and other FO moves but the performance of the team is what's in question here. I don't see how they can say it isn't good enough when they haven't even finished the job.

Well either they're impatient or they feel that the team has arrived and is simply not good enough.

 

[CobraAcesS]

We aren't talking drafting and other FO moves but the performance of the team is what's in question here. I don't see how they can say it isn't good enough when they haven't even finished the job.

Curious, what would constitute 'finishing the job'? That's a very difficult thing to do in the NHL.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Curious, what would constitute 'finishing the job'? That's a very difficult thing to do in the NHL.

Creating a cup contending team I suppose. Very difficult to accomplish today. How many true contenders are there in the NHL right now?

 

[The Kingslayer]

Landeskog is what he is regardless of draft status, and he was never drafted because of his offensive prowess. It was because of the amount of offense he can give you while also doing the things he does well on 200 feet of ice.

I doubt they are dumb enough to trade Landeskog because hes not scoring 70 points per/82.

Yup. As much crap as I have given landeskog this season hes still been his old consistent self. I always expect Landeskog to be a 20-25 goal 35-40 assists type of guy with solid 2 way play, good on the PK and hard to play against. Hes pretty much hovering around that right now with two suspensions this season and injuries.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Moving MacK should be the absolute last thing they ever do. You can't win in this league without an elite player, and he's their best shot at it.

Yeah. MacK isn't going anywhere. I can't see them moving Lando either because of his 2way, power forward game (though I could see him stripped of the C). Based on play, I would say Varly is the most likely to go. We just straight up need more consistency from our #1 goalie. Varly, to me, is the worst we have when it comes folding under pressure as well. Barrie would be the other obvious choice if contract negotiations are not going well. Duchene and EJ would be somewhere in the middle, imo.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Curious, what would constitute 'finishing the job'? That's a very difficult thing to do in the NHL.

Building a team, not just 6 core players and spare parts. It will never be "done" entirely but the point is they were supposed to build this franchise into something. They were given 5 of our 6 core players and a #1 overall pick, what have they provided on top of that? I'm not disagreeing with changing their draft philosophy, getting in some good prospects, signing some good FAs, developing the young guys that were and are here are part of that. But we aren't looking at the long term big picture right now, one that I very much believe(d) in. We are looking at what this team does in the next 12 games, period. It's fair to look at each individual and evaluate their performance, as they always should be doing, but as a group, an entity of 23 guys expected to accomplish something, no their job isn't done at all.

 

[Iceberg]

Trading MacKinnon before the others would the dumbest thing they could possibily do, and while i'm not sold on Sakic and Roy yet, i don't think they would be THAT dumb.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Yup. As much crap as I have given landeskog this season hes still been his old consistent self. I always expect Landeskog to be a 20-25 goal 35-40 assists type of guy with solid 2 way play, good on the PK and hard to play against. Hes pretty much hovering around that right now with two suspensions this season and injuries.

I think I'd like to see more of that type of game he brought when he played sick, and Landeskoging became a thing.

Some more of the bullish net front presence and taking command of carrying the puck up the ice when we're down a goal or need to take a lead in the third period.

However that's not an easy ask depending on how his shoulder is to this point. He may know he can't be reliable carrying the puck up the ice consistently right now.

So my biggest beef about him not having the puck as much as he used to comes with a huge 'BUT' attached to it. Which is frustrating.

I remember we used to say that Duchene and Landeskog were not great line mates because they both needed to have the puck too much. Not sure if that not being the case with Landeskog is a net positive or negative right now.

 

[henchman21]

We aren't talking drafting and other FO moves but the performance of the team is what's in question here. I don't see how they can say it isn't good enough when they haven't even finished the job.

They can evaluate what they have, and how they have done over the course of the past 3 years. The core that they have currently, has been here that entire time. At this point, they pretty much can evaluate all of them with maybe the exception of MacK who should develop more still. On top of that, they can see what pieces are and are not working currently with the team and how this all projects moving forward. This isn't a situation where they have a bunch of small sample sizes to work with, a lot of this team has a lot of sample size to work with. Yeah the rebuild isn't finished, but that doesn't mean they can't re-evaluate what they have.

 

[The Kingslayer]

I think I'd like to see more of that type of game he brought when he played sick, and Landeskoging became a thing.

Some more of the bullish net front presence and taking command of carrying the puck up the ice when we're down a goal or need to take a lead in the third period.

However that's not an easy ask depending on how his shoulder is to this point. He may know he can't be reliable carrying the puck up the ice consistently right now.

So my biggest beef about him not having the puck as much as he used to comes with a huge 'BUT' attached to it. Which is frustrating.

I remember we used to say that Duchene and Landeskog were not great line mates because they both needed to have the puck too much. Not sure if that not being the case with Landeskog is a net positive or negative right now.

He played that game against the Ducks but he went over the line with that hit lol but yah I would love more games like that from him going forward. Hes just so damn good when he drives the net hard with the puck but with a bum shoulder I can see why he would be a little shy about doing it so often this year. If I had it my way he wouldnt be playing in the World Cup unless he was 100% healthy by then.

 

[JLo217]

I might take a year off if they trade Duchene.