Proposal: Trouba Mega Thread Part VI

[aj8000]

I've said just that repeatedly and was told I was wrong and basing that opinion on nothing, etc etc etc.

I've also then stated that sitting him out a year will only exacerbate the issue of it not making sense for any other team to trade top assets for him.

Only does not make sense to you because you do not have all the information. Guess what Chevy does have all the information and if trouba has to sit out for the year, then that was the best option for the Jets.

You can keep repeating your comment but that will not change the facts that the Jets are not trying to trade him unless they get the return. That is what the Jets so at the moment, they are not concerned about him losing value.

 

[Lundy HOF]

Yeah, you are clearly looking at it from the perspective of an NYR fan that wants to acquire a player for less than his worth. From a Winnipeg Jets perspective, Trouba is asking for rights he does not have as a player just exiting an entry-level contract. He can ask for a trade, but it does not need to be granted. By not signing Overhardt is also attempting to control the trade process. The Jets are smartly saying that you either need to sign with us and we will control where you wind up over time, or sit.

Trouba will only likely be traded when the Jets control the process and are made to feel whole in the return. They also likely don't feel that way at present when the agent is limiting the number of suitors - which prevents the GM from viewing a full array of his options. That is probably why people like Dreger and Friedman are currently saying they've doubts a trade will occur. A team loaded with kids can't afford to be viewed as an organization that can be pushed around by outsiders like Overhardt.

Looking at it from a NYR fan perspective would be "here take my crap for your much better player", that's not at all what I am saying.

I am fully on-board with Chevy getting a reasonable deal which is probably like ~80-85c on the $ at this point.

What I am saying is, strong arming the kid (assuming he is not traded before Dec and has to sit out the season) will have repercussions. Really think about what Trouba is telling people by doing that, he is willing to sacrifice TONS of money just not to play in WPG and have his rights belong to them. If Chevy goes down the road of forcing him to sit out - to me, that doesn't signal a "strong Organization I want to play for" if I was a collegiate FA for example.

You want to have winning culture and a culture players WANT to be a part of imo.

Accommodating the kid while getting quality value should be the goal. Not just maximizing value.

 

[CaptainChef]

And I'd wager your guess would be wrong.

Gardner plus would be the safer assumption.

And the plus being not anyone named Marner, Nylander, Matthews, or Reilly.

Jets fans haven't figured it out yet, but if the demand is a left-shot D-man, Winnipeg is taking the lesser player in comparison to Trouba. Your not getting a one-for-one deal. No team is trading Winnipeg an equal caliber LD for a hold-out malcontent like Trouba.

The team getting Trouba would have to add most likely.

Most would peg Reilly is at least Trouba's equal if not better. So you can effectively rule him out. Common sense would tell you the Leafs would never do that.

It would be either Reilly (which may well have ben a 1 for 1) or Gardiner + defensive prospect.

I don't think Jets management would have been all that high on Gardiner because his biggest attraction is his possession stats (which I don't see them looking at in depth).

So unless the defensive prospect was good enough to make the deal attractive, my thought is it was indeed Reilly

 

[aj8000]

Get ready for a dozen pages of posts about how you're wrong and not playing doesn't effect value and Trouba is like a fine wine getting better the more he sits without playing meaningful NHL games.

If you do not like being told you are wrong, you do not have to post here. The jets management have a plan and I trust their instinct better than yours.

 

[aj8000]

What I am saying is, strong arming the kid (assuming he is not traded before Dec and has to sit out the season) will have repercussions. Really think about what Trouba is telling people by doing that, he is willing to sacrifice TONS of money just not to play in WPG and have his rights belong to them. If Chevy goes down the road of forcing him to sit out - to me, that doesn't signal a "strong Organization I want to play for" if I was a collegiate FA for example.

You are dreaming that there are repercussions to the Jets. They have publicly stated that they want him to sign and play with the jets, if he is not signed before December 1, that will be all Trouba.

 

[Gump Hasek]

Looking at it from a NYR fan perspective would be "here take my crap for your much better player", that's not at all what I am saying.

I am fully on-board with Chevy getting a reasonable deal which is probably like ~80-85c on the $ at this point.

What I am saying is, strong arming the kid (assuming he is not traded before Dec and has to sit out the season) will have repercussions. Really think about what Trouba is telling people by doing that, he is willing to sacrifice TONS of money just not to play in WPG and have his rights belong to them. If Chevy goes down the road of forcing him to sit out - to me, that doesn't signal a "strong Organization I want to play for" if I was a collegiate FA for example.

You want to have winning culture and a culture players WANT to be a part of imo.

Accommodating the kid while getting quality value should be the goal. Not just maximizing value.

Again, you are trying to paint the picture within your own prism, and I don't fault that. The Jets have no reason to accept anything less than a return that makes them feel whole however - which explains the high ask. If it means waiting, so be it. They don't need to accommodate the kid; no accommodation is required. Chevy isn't forcing him to sit out; that would be Trouba's choice if it happens. Oh well, life moves on.

 

[Keep Sorokin Me Babe]

Dreger actually reported this, no vetting required

Dreger did not report that the Jets and Leafs had a deal in place.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Multiple players with the same agent as Trouba have done it. It’s something that seems like one of his standard formulas.

I’m sure he is sad. :p

If there were something offered that was in the Jets best interest, it would be done already.

The Jets needs are pretty specific. They have a lot of talented, young Forwards and Goaltenders at all levels of development in their organization. In fact they have more than they can play. They don’t need second pairing D and it’s not in their interest to trade Trouba for a bottom pair D.

What they need is a top pairing LHD who fits their age profile, so basically the LHD version of Trouba. Even if they are good players anything else is basically redundant and trading Trouba for such assets isn’t in the teams best interest.

At this time his choice is to either sign or not play in the NHL. If he’s not willing to play outside the US his choices are to sign or give up pro hockey. Nothing in the limited details we have of why he doesn’t want to play in Canada suggest he’s be willing to go to this extreme.


Because there isn’t anything on the table that is in the Jets best interests.

Kane signed even though he’d asked for a trade and had to wait until the right trade came along. There is no reason to alter the formula from the Jets side.

Why would a a team trade a equally good player for Trouba? Would be a lateral move at best because you never know how he will fit in on your team.
I get everything you are saying but i think you are forgetting one important thing! Every game Jets play without Trouba, you play without a top pairing RD. You are talking about it as a loss for Trouba only, its not. Its a huge loss for Jets not having Trouba in the team and having him sit out a year is horrible for his development!

 

[Gump Hasek]

Why would a a team trade a equally good player for Trouba? Would be a lateral move at best because you never know how he will fit in on your team.
I get everything you are saying but i think you are forgetting one important thing! Every game Jets play without Trouba, you play without a top pairing RD. You are talking about it as a loss for Trouba only, its not. Its a huge loss for Jets not having Trouba in the team and having him sit out a year is horrible for his development!

They already are playing without him, and he has effectively now been replaced by Josh Morrissey. It appears Overhardt didn't factor that into the leverage equation. Sure, they could use the depth that Trouba or a trade replacement would offer the depth chart, but not at the cost of being bent over by the agent.

 

[Hunter368]

I've said just that repeatedly and was told I was wrong and basing that opinion on nothing, etc etc etc.

I've also then stated that sitting him out a year will only exacerbate the issue of it not making sense for any other team to trade top assets for him.

I was referring to the post of yours I quoted, no clue what you've stated in the past

 

[cobra427]

If they are show-casing him, they are doing it in spades. Heard he has been amazing & he's being put in for 20+ mins per game. I'd be very happy to work out a deal around a guy like that, but I fear that ship has sailed.

Part of me thought they were show casing Chychrun as bait for Trouba. Chychrun has been playing well, 20+ minutes and is in the top 4 last few games. Tip is hard on young players but their decision to keep him in the NHL, and burn a year of his ELC, tells me he is for real. I think the Coyotes would have done a Chychrun+ trade for Trouba a month ago. I am not sure they would do it straight up now. Think about the 18 year old D that make it in the NHL, it is an elite short list.

 

[aj8000]

Dreger did not report that the Jets and Leafs had a deal in place.

He misspoke, he was referring to the inquiry from Toronto and they were told it was not a fit. Seriously, it is fairly obvious what he is talking about

 

[nyr__1994]

You clearly know nothing about them as an organization. The counter to your assertion is that the Jets are basically the tightest franchise with information that exists. Friedman himself has stated that the Jets are saying nothing: "Several teams have tried to be creative but GM Kevin Cheveldayoff is not budging or talking. All he says is, “We will do what’s best for the Winnipeg Jets.†"

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-game-changing-move-seattles-nhl-bid/

Whenever he is asked about Trouba, all he ever essentially says is "no comment", move on.

Those reporters are more than likely to be getting their info from other teams. If that represents Winnipeg negotiating through the press in your world, then party on.

Again, what do you want him to say if Boston comes with an offer that he might consider on Nov 30? The answer right now is no, but call me back later and I will take it? C'mon....

 

[aj8000]

Why would a a team trade a equally good player for Trouba? Would be a lateral move at best because you never know how he will fit in on your team.
I get everything you are saying but i think you are forgetting one important thing! Every game Jets play without Trouba, you play without a top pairing RD. You are talking about it as a loss for Trouba only, its not. Its a huge loss for Jets not having Trouba in the team and having him sit out a year is horrible for his development!

Exactly, which is why the jets have no intention in trading his rights unless they get equal value. Trouba has a choice coming up, bury the hatchet and sign with the Jets or double down and sit out. if he sits out, that is trouba's fault not the Jets.

 

[aj8000]

Part of me thought they were show casing Chychrun as bait for Trouba. Chychrun has been playing well, 20+ minutes and is in the top 4 last few games. Tip is hard on young players but their decision to keep him in the NHL, and burn a year of his ELC, tells me he is for real. I think the Coyotes would have done a Chychrun+ trade for Trouba a month ago. I am not sure they would do it straight up now. Think about the 18 year old D that make it in the NHL, it is an elite short list.

I doubt it, after the Turris contract issues with Overhardt, why would they take another problem child.

 

[WesMcCauley]

They already are playing without him, and he has effectively now been replaced by Josh Morrissey. It appears Overhardt didn't factor that into the leverage equation. Sure, they could use the depth that Trouba or a trade replacement would offer the depth chart, but not at the cost of being bent over by the agent.

So Trouba is a top pair D but you could only use his depth and he was easily replaced by Morrissey?

 

[aj8000]

Again, what do you want him to say if Boston comes with an offer that he might consider on Nov 30? The answer right now is no, but call me back later and I will take it? C'mon....

I guess we will see what happens if Boston does that. What exactly is your point?

 

[Hunter368]

I get that, but if Trouba isnt willing to sign and has said that he will not do it. Getting something good for him now is better them letting him sit for 3 years? Highly doubt that will happen but you understand what im saying. No point letting this drag out for a year or two. Highly doubt the return will be alot better in a year. Coyotes could deal Chychrun since they have solid LH defense depth but he is younger, ELC and he will be unreal imo! Hard to let a player go when he is that young and is already as good as he is. Never understood how he was available as the 16th pick. Steal for Arizona! Was easily in my top 10 and I would rank him above Olli Juolevi who was the highest drafted defensemen in that draft(#5).

Is it worth trading him to get anything? Depends

Let's play a hypothetical game. Let's say Trouba's trade value in late Nov is 90%, I could see Chevy saying maybe we trade him to get help right now.

But let's say his value has slipped to 50-75% (as per some posters here have stated directly or via the horrible offers they've made), that type of return doesn't help us in anyway. Example: Getting a 3rd line forward and/or bottom pairing D means nothing to us when we have loads of them already. Then the value of sitting him out entire year holds more value to the team. Sets the bar for all future RFA or players thinking they can force management to trade them.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Exactly, which is why the jets have no intention in trading his rights unless they get equal value. Trouba has a choice coming up, bury the hatchet and sign with the Jets or double down and sit out. if he sits out, that is trouba's fault not the Jets.

Im not saying its not his fault, it is his fault because Jets own his rights. But you are talking about not having Trouba as it doesnt matter but he is still a top pair defensemen. Would be better to get something good for him, even a defensemen thats not NHL ready before next season or the season after that instead of Trouba just sitting out and losing value...?

 

[Gump Hasek]

So Trouba is a top pair D but you could only use his depth and he was easily replaced by Morrissey?

You do know that Josh Morrissey was a high first round draft pick that played 28 games in the AHL in a Calder Cup run at age 19 and excelled and also played a full year in the AHL last year? That he was able to rise to play on the top pair in the NHL shouldn't come as a surprise. What I am saying is that Trouba would be welcomed back wherever they play him, but that the roster is fine without him thus far. Their only issues on D are really on the bottom pair, so pushing one player down in the depth chart wouldn't hurt, but it isn't a necessity either. Their decisions can't be dictated by an outsider regardless.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Is it worth trading him to get anything? Depends

Let's play a hypothetical game. Let's say Trouba's trade value in late Nov is 90%, I could see Chevy saying maybe we trade him to get help right now.

But let's say his value has slipped to 50-75% (as per some posters here have stated directly or via the horrible offers they've made), that type of return doesn't help us in anyway. Example: Getting a 3rd line forward and/or bottom pairing D means nothing to us when we have loads of them already. Then the value of sitting him out entire year holds more value to the team. Sets the bar for all future RFA or players thinking they can force management to trade them.

You will get alot more than that unless they are very young and are 3rd line forwards and bottom pair defensemen right now with alot of potential! Thats not a bad thing either, you arent winning this season anyway

 

[nyr__1994]

You do know that Josh Morrissey was a high draft pick that played 28 games in the AHL in a Calder Cup run at age 19 and excelled and also played a full year in the AHL last year? That he was able to rise to play on the top pair shouldn't come as a surprise. What I am saying is that Trouba would be welcomed back wherever they play him, but that the roster is fine without him thus far. Their only issues on D are really on the bottom pair, so pushing one player down in the depth chart wouldn't hurt.

And your record certainly indicates that as well.

(Que the 4 rookies, development year response)

 

[Lundy HOF]

Again, you are trying to paint the picture within your own prism, and I don't fault that. The Jets have no reason to accept anything less than a return that makes them feel whole however - which explains the high ask. If it means waiting, so be it. They don't need to accommodate the kid; no accommodation is required. Chevy isn't forcing him to sit out; that would be Trouba's choice if it happens. Oh well, life moves on.

I get your point, I just think it is incredibly short-sighted.

Just like running ANY business (and lets be clear, hockey like any sport is a business) management should be signaling to the employees that their needs matter.

To be very specific: "Chevy isn't forcing him to sit out; that would be Trouba's choice if it happens. Oh well, life moves on." This is not the correct attitude to be portraying at all. To use a real life example (since it recently occurred) - if you are Jimmy Vesey why on Earth would you ever consider to play for this type of management?

Accommodating Trouba is a hard choice since you like the player and don't want to or even technically need to trade him but it is the smart choice in the long term. Being a "cold" Organization is not a good thing either. Really look at the potential outcomes here:

1) Trouba sits out as Chevy continues to strong arm him - this is not good for anyone
2) Trouba signs a contract till he can be an RFA - now you have a disgruntled player, who can potentially cause rifts in the locker room and a player who does not support his own management.
3) Trouba is traded for a reasonable price.

Outcome 3 should be the goal - which is why I would love to see what the talks have been for. Are the other GMs not budging since there is no leverage on Chevy's part? Is Chevy being overly greedy?

I would hope it is the former because if an 80/85c deal is/was on the table - it should have been taken, get some quality value and move on.

As an aside I personally do not subscribe to the "we need to set a principle here" - seems very rigid for this particular scenario (it would be much more applicable to the Drouin situation). I know it is crazy but maybe Laine or Elhers actually WANTS to play in WPG and will do so regardless of the Trouba outcome?

Again - build a winning culture that players want to be a part of on their own accords.

 

[Hunter368]

Again, what do you want him to say if Boston comes with an offer that he might consider on Nov 30? The answer right now is no, but call me back later and I will take it? C'mon....

I've stated many times, everything up till now has just been waiting game, posturing, making Trouba wait, scouting out early deals, etc. Serious/final/best offers deals won't made until the last two weeks of nov.

I don't even watch for trade, b/c nothing will happen until the 11th hour if anything happens.

 

[Hunter368]

You will get alot more than that unless they are very young and are 3rd line forwards and bottom pair defensemen right now with alot of potential! Thats not a bad thing either, you arent winning this season anyway

That's my point, depending on the return......some here are saying we're lucky to get anything or super low value back......so sitting him out holds more value to us if that's true.

No one had high hopes for this development year even with Trouba playing......not to mention losing our #1C from last year, 3rd line winger, top 4 RHD (Myers), etc.