Training Camp 2023

[freakydallas13]

Yeah, that sounds really definitive. They're 2-3 years behind teams that have yet to win anything.

In three years, when Michkov comes over, they should be in the playoff hunt, That's still 2-3 years from being a legitimate SC contender. I mean if you add Michkov, Gauthier, (7) 1st and 2nd rd picks in the 2023 and 2024 drafts, and you haven't improved by 20 points - you f**ked up!

If you genuinely think the Flyers in 2-3 years will be where the Devils are now (without adding multiple additional Michkov-level talents ), then I don't know what to say other than you shouldn't bare face stare at the sun that long.

 

[Curufinwe]

So long as Torts is fired or retired in 2-3 years, I'll be happy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sure, if we are talking about a guy with a track record or some kind of actual evidence of something there could be some context to help explain it, But if we are talking about a guy like NAK, who has never had success and had only one half of a season where he played decent and it happened to be on the team that won the Cup, then went to another team and was waived, then went to another team and reverted back to how he was on the Flyers, it does not need context. If it does, please provide the context. Aside from the Avs being the best team in the league and the Flyers being one of the worst, why did he have a better time in Colorado aside from "thEY usEd HiM cORecTlY!" or referencing the fact that a coach said it? Why didn't that translate to Toronto? Why wasn't he brought back? Why is he producing almost identically in Washington to what he was producing here? The obvious answer is that he isn't very good (yes, even if Colorado's coach said the Flyers used him wrong).

If you're talking about overarching trends, their inability to develop depth players without more of any type of explanation other than that blanket statement, was rebuffed by a list of depth players that they have or are currently developing. Your response to that list is to say I am using a strawman argument and say the guys I am mentioning or the trends don't apply? How am I to refute your claims of not developing depth players if I am not allowed to reference depth players that they have developed or appear to be on track in developing? Or are these guys not depth players is that what you are saying?

NAK has had success. His career is already longer than average.

The "current list" only works if they use any of those players, which they aren't.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Trading your clear best defenseman (Provy) is a short term move?

Trying to trade your clear 2nd best defenseman (Sanheim...and it would've been done if not for Krug invoking his NMC) is also a short term move?

Drafting a guy under contract in Putin's Russia for the next 3 years is a short term move?

I agree... they are absolutely showing you what they are doing. And it ain't a quick patch job... unless you have an agenda and absolutely will not admit you were wrong.

I'm focused on the major moves they made. You and Beef are focused on the 2 year contract we gave to a 4th liner, or the 1 year min deal we gave Staal to be our 7th defenseman or the fact that we haven't dealt Scott Laughton yet.

The major moves mean nothing but the marginal moves? That dictates the future of the team!

Provorov was not their best dman. Far from it, actually.

They also only traded him because he clashed with management. Then everything else they traded was to appease Tortorella. He also doesn't like Sanheim. It's not a rebuild. It's their umpteenth annual Great Cultural Reset. The major moves ARE short term moves. They're building around a f***ing coach, who plans on retiring soon.

 

[freakydallas13]

Temporarily allowing ignored posts to be seen and there are like 4 posts in a row, each a different account but all of them huffing the farts of this team's management.

Sure makes you think.

 

[tnfrs]

i love how much gatekeeping is done here, flyers fans are always so reasonable

 

[deadhead]

Briere has been GM since AFTER last year's TDL. All of six months.
Let's wait until say April? before we jump to conclusions?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

I have stated for months now that all this team needs to do to get me to say it’s a rebuild is to move ONE single player that wasn’t a malcontent or butted heads with Torts. Just one.

And I've been stating for months that making those deals takes more than one offseason.

I'm gonna judge Danny and Keith on the merits of what they have done so far. And what they've done is picked up several additional early draft picks, swung for the fences with their first round draft pick, cleared out 3 older players that were taking up roster spots that will seemingly now be occupied by Brink and Andrae/Zamula. Those 3 players may also have been poor locker room guys / have been clashing w/ management (2 of the 3 at least), but that makes it a win-win.

If we get through the trade deadline and we're not in a playoff spot and Laughton and Hart etc. are all still here, then perhaps it's time to start asking if things have really changed.

But right now? On the merits of what Briere has done in 7 or so months? I think he's doing a good job and I think there's a clear difference from how Chuck ran things. You can say Michkov was a no brainer move all you like, but Chuck and Homer and Hexy probably would've found a way to pass on him just like Montreal did.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

They moved a PR nightmare that wanted out and two Torts malcontents during this rebuild while holding onto players that actually have value. What exactly is major about any of that?

They took Michkov, congrats. They walked into something that for the first time even they couldn’t f*** up.

I have said for years that I don’t know shit about f***. I’ll admit I’m wrong with ease. From where I stand how this organization operates hasn’t changed in the slightest.

For years we’ve been told that those 4th liners or 7th defensemen don’t matter but they really do matter. All of these failures in the margins add up and they have put the organization in the position that they are currently in. I get it though, it’s much easier to point to this “little” things by themselves and say “lol, you think Marc Staal is the biggest issue?!?l then to actually look at the entire body of work.

I have stated for months now that all this team needs to do to get me to say it’s a rebuild is to move ONE single player that wasn’t a malcontent or butted heads with Torts. Just one.

I don't want to give Briere any less credit for taking Michkov. Obviously not every team would have. We're all clear on this, right? Good.

The thing I keep harping on is degree of difficulty. That's the big takeaway from the Hextall era to me. Trading Lecavalier and Rinaldo and the rest were good moves. Degree of difficulty was low. We all saw what happened later.

Michkov met with them after refusing other teams. He told them this is where he wanted to be. Again, no less credit for pulling the trigger. But it lowers the degree of difficulty. This isn't a knock on Briere. Anyone would feel more comfortable making the pick after such a meeting. It's just not hard evidence everything is on the right path yet to me. It's a positive tickmark filed away for later because I learned from my mistakes.

 

[Magua]

I don't want to give Briere any less credit for taking Michkov. Obviously not every team would have. We're all clear on this, right? Good.

The thing I keep harping on is degree of difficulty. That's the big takeaway from the Hextall era to me. Trading Lecavalier and Rinaldo and the rest were good moves. Degree of difficulty was low. We all saw what happened later.

Michkov met with them after refusing other teams. He told them this is where he wanted to be. Again, no less credit for pulling the trigger. But it lowers the degree of difficulty. This isn't a knock on Briere. Anyone would feel more comfortable making the pick after such a meeting. It's just not hard evidence everything is on the right path yet to me. It's a positive tickmark filed away for later because I learned from my mistakes.

Taking advantage of other teams' incompetence, or unique circumstance, is a defining factor of any good organization. No one should ever apologize for it. Do the Eagles deserve credit for picking Jalen Carter where they did? They sure as hell do. (I'll ignore they were already a Super Bowl caliber team and that everything around that pick was better process.)

I'm not exaggerating though that short of other teams screwing the pooch with Michkov and/or Michkov guiding his way here, this team would be in a catastrophic position. I think it's all but assured the Flyers would have Ryan Leonard as their *ahem* crown jewel, with no further plans to sniff a lottery selection or lottery caliber player. Meanwhile, Benson is on the Sabres top line and looks to have made the team. We're not in this reality, so how is this relevant? It's relevant if you're of the belief Michkov is step 1 of about 4 or 5 in assembling an actual core. And boy, oh boy, do they have a lot to prove there.

 

[deadhead]

If you genuinely think the Flyers in 2-3 years will be where the Devils are now (without adding multiple additional Michkov-level talents ), then I don't know what to say other than you shouldn't bare face stare at the sun that long.

NJ isn't quite as loaded as you think, and they probably stopped their rebuild a year or two early.
They also got lucky with two #1 picks.
Nico (25), J Hughes (22), Bratt (25), J Hughes (22), L Hughes (20)
they have Nemec D (20) Casey D (19) and Holtz LW (22) on the way

But also had to fill out their roster with free agents and trades
Hamilton (30), Meier (27), Marino (27), Palat (32), Haula (32), Toffoli (31), Miller (31), Nosek (31), B Smith (34)
Meier - 2023 1st, 2024 1st
Marino - 2023 3rd, Ty Smith
Toffoli - 2023 3rd
Haula - Zacha
Lazar - 2024 4th
Vanacek - w/ #46 for #37 & #70 in 2022

Since 2015 they had #6 Zacha, #12 McLeod, #1 Hischier, #17 Smith, #1 Hughes, #7 Holtz, #18 Mercer, #20 Mukhakmadulin, #4 Hughes, #29 Stillman, #2 Nemec.

They took so long simply b/c they didn't draft well, if they weren't lucky, they'd still be wandering in the wilderness.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Ah yes. The Devils had to fill out their roster with good players, most of which did not cost major trade assets. I can see the negatives of that.

 

[EXTRAS]

What's the defense lineup probably gonna look like?

 

[deadhead]

Ah yes. The Devils had to fill out their roster with good players, most of which did not cost major trade assets. I can see the negatives of that.

The negative is their prospect pipeline will empty over the next couple years unless they suddenly learn how to draft without picks in the top 10.

And a lot of the players they added probably over performed last season and/or are aging out, which means they could face some depth issues. They lost Severson, Sharangovich, Wood, Graves. I'm not solid on Seigenthaler and Marino as top 4 D-men. I'd be wary of Haula, Palat and Nosek. Meier was a good addition to the core, but cost a couple high picks and a $8M extension.

Usually a rebuild ends when you pick up one or two key FA/trade additions to put you over the top, this smells more like pressure from the top to "win now." Which after a decade of futility is understandable. But isn't this exactly what Flyer fans fear?

The league will be gunning for them this season, and Vanacek isn't a playoff goalie.
Question is whether Schmid is for real, had a nice run for them, but was this just a SSS fluke?
2021-22: AHL .911 Sv%
2023-23: AHL .905 Sv%, NJ 18g .922 Sv%, NJ PO 9g .921 Sv%

 

[Don Nachbaur 26]

Briere has been GM since AFTER last year's TDL. All of six months.
Let's wait until say April? before we jump to conclusions?

So I have this idea about a game. Hear me out. So it's a mat, like hopscotch, and on the mat are several conclusions. You roll a dice and then "jump to conclusions". Cool eh?

 

[FlyerNutter]

St Louis, and the Islanders. That’s who we wanna model after.

Devils suck.

 

[deadhead]

Well, Caps, St Louis and Vegas have won 3 of the last 6 Cups.
All follow a similar model, physical, hot goalie, good defense, not a lot of smurfs doing "Michigans."

NJ, Toronto and Edmonton have won ????
Hard to emulate them, not only do you have to suck for a long period (like until 2030) but you have to get lottery luck in multiple drafts.

 

[freakydallas13]

Well, Caps, St Louis and Vegas have won 3 of the last 6 Cups.
All follow a similar model, physical, hot goalie, good defense, not a lot of smurfs doing "Michigans."

NJ, Toronto and Edmonton have won ????
Hard to emulate them, not only do you have to suck for a long period (like until 2030) but you have to get lottery luck in multiple drafts.

This is absolutely the worst, strawman-ingest, cherry picking-ist use of stats I've seen in at least an hour. I don't know what else to say.

NJ isn't quite as loaded as you think, and they probably stopped their rebuild a year or two early.
They also got lucky with two #1 picks.
Nico (25), J Hughes (22), Bratt (25), J Hughes (22), L Hughes (20)
they have Nemec D (20) Casey D (19) and Holtz LW (22) on the way

But also had to fill out their roster with free agents and trades
Hamilton (30), Meier (27), Marino (27), Palat (32), Haula (32), Toffoli (31), Miller (31), Nosek (31), B Smith (34)
Meier - 2023 1st, 2024 1st
Marino - 2023 3rd, Ty Smith
Toffoli - 2023 3rd
Haula - Zacha
Lazar - 2024 4th
Vanacek - w/ #46 for #37 & #70 in 2022

Since 2015 they had #6 Zacha, #12 McLeod, #1 Hischier, #17 Smith, #1 Hughes, #7 Holtz, #18 Mercer, #20 Mukhakmadulin, #4 Hughes, #29 Stillman, #2 Nemec.

They took so long simply b/c they didn't draft well, if they weren't lucky, they'd still be wandering in the wilderness.

Do you want to go on record saying you think the Flyers in 2 to 3 years will be a second round team, on the precipice to becoming one of the elite teams in the leauge?

 

[dragonoffrost]

Holy Torts fetish

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The negative is their prospect pipeline will empty over the next couple years unless they suddenly learn how to draft without picks in the top 10.

And a lot of the players they added probably over performed last season and/or are aging out, which means they could face some depth issues. They lost Severson, Sharangovich, Wood, Graves. I'm not solid on Seigenthaler and Marino as top 4 D-men. I'd be wary of Haula, Palat and Nosek. Meier was a good addition to the core, but cost a couple high picks and a $8M extension.

Usually a rebuild ends when you pick up one or two key FA/trade additions to put you over the top, this smells more like pressure from the top to "win now." Which after a decade of futility is understandable. But isn't this exactly what Flyer fans fear?

The league will be gunning for them this season, and Vanacek isn't a playoff goalie.
Question is whether Schmid is for real, had a nice run for them, but was this just a SSS fluke?
2021-22: AHL .911 Sv%
2023-23: AHL .905 Sv%, NJ 18g .922 Sv%, NJ PO 9g .921 Sv%

You’ve been lower than the average on Siegenthaler for quite a while. I really don’t care to argue the point other than to say if he’s the 2nd best guy on your 2nd pair, it’s a pretty damn good sign.

However, Marino I don’t understand one tiny bit. He’s been downright excellent defensively in 2 orgs, signed for multiple years at 4+ and is still only 26. It’s impossible to reconcile your usual stances of defense mattering with this. That was an A+ trade. Thanks, Ron.

 

[deadhead]

This is absolutely the worst, strawman-ingest, cherry picking-ist use of stats I've seen in at least an hour. I don't know what else to say.


Do you want to go on record saying you think the Flyers in 2 to 3 years will be a second round team, on the precipice to becoming one of the elite teams in the leauge?

Let's see how Jersey looks in April, teams come out of nowhere then regress when the rest of the league focuses on them and exploits weaknesses. They have talent, but so does Edmonton and Toronto (as much as NJ in terms of pure skill).

In three years, 2026-27, when Michkov comes over (at 21 he should be a PPG or better forward), Gauthier has two years in the NHL, etc. the Flyers should be a playoff team given the quality of goal tending. You don't need 4 top ten picks in your lineup to be a playoff team. Two scoring lines, solid special teams (net of both PP and PK), four solid D-men and good depth is all it takes.

Hypothetical (things change) team for 2026-27

Farabee (26) - Gauthier (22) - Michkov (21)
Tippett (27) - Frost (27) - Brink (25)
Cates (27) - Couts (34) - Foerster (24)
Desnoyers (24) - Poehling (27) - Wisdom (24)
Kaplan (22), Avon (23)
TK (29) traded?

York (25) - Sanheim (30)
Andrae (24) - Bonk (21)
Zamula (26) - Attard (27)
Grans (24), Samson (23)

Hart (27), Ersson (26), Kolosov (24)

Note that this does not include any 2024 1st and 2nd rd picks (4), who'll be 20 years old starting that season. Nor does it include any potential FAs.

 

[freakydallas13]

Let's see how Jersey looks in April, teams come out of nowhere then regress when the rest of the league focuses on them and exploits weaknesses. They have talent, but so does Edmonton and Toronto (as much as NJ in terms of pure skill).

In three years, 2026-27, when Michkov comes over (at 21 he should be a PPG or better forward), Gauthier has two years in the NHL, etc. the Flyers should be a playoff team given the quality of goal tending. You don't need 4 top ten picks in your lineup to be a playoff team. Two scoring lines, solid special teams (net of both PP and PK), four solid D-men and good depth is all it takes.

Hypothetical (things change) team for 2026-27

Farabee (26) - Gauthier (22) - Michkov (21)
Tippett (27) - Frost (27) - Brink (25)
Cates (27) - Couts (34) - Foerster (24)
Desnoyers (24) - Poehling (27) - Wisdom (24)
Kaplan (22), Avon (23)
TK (29) traded?

York (25) - Sanheim (30)
Andrae (24) - Bonk (21)
Zamula (26) - Attard (27)
Grans (24), Samson (23)

Hart (27), Ersson (26), Kolosov (24)

Note that this does not include any 2024 1st and 2nd rd picks (4), who'll be 20 years old starting that season. Nor does it include any potential FAs.

So that's a no then, as I imagined.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

It's relevant if you're of the belief Michkov is step 1 of about 4 or 5 in assembling an actual core. And boy, oh boy, do they have a lot to prove there.

Do you think Briere can do it? Or do you think that the senior advisors will eventually rear their ugly heads and see to give a way to get him fired?

 

[deadhead]

You’ve been lower than the average on Siegenthaler for quite a while. I really don’t care to argue the point other than to say if he’s the 2nd best guy on your 2nd pair, it’s a pretty damn good sign.

However, Marino I don’t understand one tiny bit. He’s been downright excellent defensively in 2 orgs, signed for multiple years at 4+ and is still only 26. It’s impossible to reconcile your usual stances of defense mattering with this. That was an A+ trade. Thanks, Ron.

I'm just suspicious of NJ, we'll see how they look this year as teams adjust to them.
I think some players overperformed last season and will come back to earth.

It's not that I expect them to crater, but look at Edmonton, 103 points and 2nd rd exit in 2016-17 then missed the playoffs for two years before becoming a perennial playoff team. Sometimes teams have to learn how to deal with success.

Do you think Briere can do it? Or do you think that the senior advisors will eventually rear their ugly heads and see to give a way to get him fired?

The senior advisors have no cachet with Hilferty, and he's the only one whose opinion matters.
As long as Briere is on the same page with Hilferty on the rebuild, there will be no issues.

 

[BernieParent]

I don't want to give Briere any less credit for taking Michkov. Obviously not every team would have. We're all clear on this, right? Good.

The thing I keep harping on is degree of difficulty. That's the big takeaway from the Hextall era to me. Trading Lecavalier and Rinaldo and the rest were good moves. Degree of difficulty was low. We all saw what happened later.

Michkov met with them after refusing other teams. He told them this is where he wanted to be. Again, no less credit for pulling the trigger. But it lowers the degree of difficulty. This isn't a knock on Briere. Anyone would feel more comfortable making the pick after such a meeting. It's just not hard evidence everything is on the right path yet to me. It's a positive tickmark filed away for later because I learned from my mistakes.

Great points, as always, Jojo. I do feel the need to add a somewhat hesitant star on the Flyer FO side of the ledger for their pursuit of Michkov during the pre-draft interview period. My hesitation is being definite about how much each side put in to make those covert meetings happen, but I am of the mind that Briere et al at least positioned themselves well to have this time with Michkov to the point where they were comfortable with his attitude toward the team. To me, that made all the difference in choosing a player with a huge question mark, particularly with the Fedotov fiasco still going on.