Training Camp 2023

[freakydallas13]

Just going by Tort's pressure he said Errson is # 2 so Sandstrom is the odd man out JR Avon is still here so once cleared will be going down . That's down to 24 players .

My best guess from the way he talked is Emil will probably go down over Big Z cause he is waiver exempt . Also one of Forester or Brink could go down cause they are competing for the 3LW spot and he wants them both to be playing not sitting in the stands . But if Emil goes down they are at 23 so they have time .

I can't imagine a world where they keep 3 goalies on the roster for fear of losing Sandstrom in waivers.

I mean I can, because this team's management is horrific, I just don't want to.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, if we are talking about 50 games and 12 points, there is no context needed. I don't care if the Flyers forced him to play a Mylec street hockey stick and didn't let him wear skates. If he scored 12 points doing that and then scored 12 points with Washington, that's the player he is. That isn't development or usage, that is a bad hockey player. He performed better on a SC winning team. He didn't on any other team he played for and was waived twice during that time period (we'll see where it goes this year). This isn't rocket science.

Ahh the classic, "If it doesn't fit my narrative, then the only explanation is that it happened by accident!" We have depth players. You don't like them, but we have them and have developed them and are developing them. Cates is a good example though everyone hates him because he got more money than Morgan Frost. Lindblom was looking good before cancer. Attard and Andrae appear to be on that track. Shit even Allison who you are complaining about looks like he is also trending towards being a good depth player. I'm sure doing a deeper dive would show a lot more. Now, we don't have the late round stars that I would like and can't remember the last time we did, but all this can be traced to a starting point of drafting before you even get to the idea of development.

The problem is that you (and others) have historically greatly inflated the value of our prospects so when they don't live up to it you can't understand why because there is no chance that you were wrong about any of these guys. I was laughed at by a majority of the board when I asked about whether or not Sam Morin was still a top prospect, I was laughed at when I told people to pump the breaks on Philippe Myers, or when people cried about f***ing Joacim Erikksson not being re-signed, or and a bunch of other crappy prospects that people were excited over when it was pretty evident that they weren't going to materialize. Draft better, then improve the development.

When discussing depth players context becomes even more important dude, because measuring their utility through production alone is less viable.

You're talking to the wrong guy about inflating prospects. Holy shit. You're firmly in Strawman territory now. Also, wasn't this about overarching trends? Here's one! The Flyers cannot develop depth players. I try to tell you why and you object, while referencing specific players and trends that don't apply. You're nitpicking.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Torts said last year that it may take longer than his current contract (4 years).

And he's also said it won't take long. Meanwhile, his emphasis is on veterans. Those aren't the actions of someone helping along a rebuild.

I like the quotes that match the actions. Anything else is bullshit.

 

[deadhead]

There is no way to know, unless you can tell me how good Michkov will be when he comes over how good Gauthier will be in 3 years, Bonk, Andrae, York, etc. Or who'll they draft next year and who might be traded and what they'll get in return. How will the goalies handle playoff pressure? How will Couts age (will he be Kopitar at 34?). And so on.

Three years from now, all the tradable veterans will be gone, Briere will have a much better idea what they have, and know if they can immediate compete when Michkov comes over or do they need to trade Frost, Tippett, etc (the next wave of veterans at 27 or so) and reboot the rebuild for a couple more years.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There is no way to know, unless you can tell me how good Michkov will be when he comes over how good Gauthier will be in 3 years, Bonk, Andrae, York, etc. Or who'll they draft next year and who might be traded and what they'll get in return. How will the goalies handle playoff pressure? How will Couts age (will he be Kopitar at 34?). And so on.

Three years from now, all the tradable veterans will be gone, Briere will have a much better idea what they have, and know if they can immediate compete when Michkov comes over or do they need to trade Frost, Tippett, etc (the next wave of veterans at 27 or so) and reboot the rebuild for a couple more years.

Yes so you can see why their expectation of a fast turnaround is insane. Particularly as NOW is the time to invest in building around Michkov. They aren't, though, because they don't understand their situation. And every time they prove that while going against what you say would be best, you do a 180 and pretend it's a masterful gambit.

 

[PALE PWNR]

The good news from all of this is the flyers control none of michkovs development so obviously he will be the most impactful player in a generation

 

[bennysflyers16]

Why does Bonk get mentioned with Cutter and MM, isn't he a ho hum , non big point getting D man ?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

There's far less upside to sell an impossible thing. Nah, this is something they believe. It's why they're holding on to guys like Laughton.

You clearly don't get it and/or don't want to get it...

Jones is trying to keep fans/season-ticketholders engaged RIGHT NOW. 2-3 years is an eternity away. And if you actually think the neanderthal boomers are going to be focused in 2025-26 on something Jonesy said in 2023, you've lost the plot.

If the Blackhawks don't make the playoffs this year, but Bedard is a PPG, Blackhawks fans will be giddy. It will be the exact same thing in 2 years but replace Blackhawks with Flyers and Bedard with Cutter/Michkov.

The only way the timeline ever blows back on Jones is if Michkov is still in Russia or struggles when he comes over. And even then, he and Briere will be under fire from fans and potentially get canned, but not for "you lied on WIP about the rebuild timeline" but rather for "you blew a top 10 pick".

The Flyers entire PR strategy right now is appeasing the impatient old school fans until our prospects arrive. That's why the Lindros era jerseys are back. That's why the old center ice logo is back. That's why they're having an "Ed Snider" Night.

The fact that you can't see an appearance on WIP for what it was (fan service) and have instead insisted that Jonesy was injected with some type of truth serum prior to said appearance is absolutely laughable.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I'm getting deja vu reading the defender's same exact arguments and defense of this organization for yet ANOTHER year

Nothing has changed

 

[freakydallas13]

Why does Bonk get mentioned with Cutter and MM, isn't he a ho hum , non big point getting D man ?

Because if you can't convince yourself Bonk is the future of the D core, then you have to explain how a team with a projected D core this awful has any hope in hell of ever competing.

 

[Larry44]

Just noticed Cal Foote is on waivers from NJ. Worth claiming, or will they take Hagg instead (ducks). Any other names interest anyone here?

https://x.com/reporterchris/status/1709631027319111787?s=20

Placed on NHL waivers today: Robert Hagg (ANA), Colton White (ANA), Jayson Megna (BOS), Brett Murray (BUF), Jujhar Khaira (MIN), Vinni Lettieri (MIN), Dakota Mermis (MIN), Nic Petan (MIN), Cal Foote (NJ), Mark Jankowski (NSH), Leon Gawanke (SJ) and Jeffrey Truchon-Viel (WPG).

 

[Redpath]

Yes so you can see why their expectation of a fast turnaround is insane. Particularly as NOW is the time to invest in building around Michkov. They aren't, though, because they don't understand their situation. And every time they prove that while going against what you say would be best, you do a 180 and pretend it's a masterful gambit.

The irony here is that if you truly want to invest in building around Michkov, then now is the time to actually start keeping/adding players, not just liquidating assets.

He lands in 2026 as a 21 year old on a 3 year ELC, quite possibly immediately as a PPG player. It'd be malfeasance to let those ELCs years go to waste because we are too concerned today with taking things hyper-slow. That is why there is value in keeping someone like TK around.

 

[tnfrs]

The irony here is that if you truly want to invest in building around Michkov, then now is the time to actually start keeping/adding players, not just liquidating assets.

He lands in 2026 as a 21 year old on a 3 year ELC, quite possible immediately as a PPG player. It'd be malfeasance to let those ELCs years go to waste because we are too concerned today with taking things hyper-slow. That is why there is value in keeping someone like TK around.

tk will be just be hitting 30 and still have a bunch of good years left for us, coots is going to be here for at least that long barring injury or retirement, id like to see them both cook up with michkov

 

[Magua]

“No, no you’re not,” Jones said. “The plan would be to get there sooner, obviously, than 2028. We have an idea where we’re going to be a much more competitive team. It’s not that far away."

Briere: “The players will decide how fast this rebuild will go. But, honestly, drafting Matvei Michkov, where we know he’s got three more years left to play in Russia on his contract, kinda fit his timeline. Hopefully it’s quicker than that but we feel when he comes over the base will be solid and we can move in a very positive direction where we can add a player that hopefully can be a game-changer at that time."

Briere: “The (New Jersey) Devils are on the upswing. The (Detroit) Red Wings, the Ottawa Senators, those are teams that have gone through rebuilds, and it’s starting to pay off for them. So we’re probably two or three years behind them, but I think it’s time for us to start looking in the same direction."

Their actions on non trades only make sense if they believe the end is near.

This. It cuts right through whatever media excuses someone wants to conjure up. They dumped 3 malcontents who weren't a part of The Culture of Tortorella. And who weren't especially good or valued. Everyone between 25-30, at peak value to shape a rebuild, has been kept. It only makes sense if they don't believe they're 5 years away. And they're religiously against bottoming out and not so secretly hoping they're vaguely a bubble team today. They don't have to say a word.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

You clearly don't get it and/or don't want to get it...

Jones is trying to keep fans/season-ticketholders engaged RIGHT NOW. 2-3 years is an eternity away. And if you actually think the neanderthal boomers are going to be focused in 2025-26 on something Jonesy said in 2023, you've lost the plot.

If the Blackhawks don't make the playoffs this year, but Bedard is a PPG, Blackhawks fans will be giddy. It will be the exact same thing in 2 years but replace Blackhawks with Flyers and Bedard with Cutter/Michkov.

The only way the timeline ever blows back on Jones is if Michkov is still in Russia or struggles when he comes over. And even then, he and Briere will be under fire from fans and potentially get canned, but not for "you lied on WIP about the rebuild timeline" but rather for "you blew a top 10 pick".

The Flyers entire PR strategy right now is appeasing the impatient old school fans until our prospects arrive. That's why the Lindros era jerseys are back. That's why the old center ice logo is back. That's why they're having an "Ed Snider" Night.

The fact that you can't see an appearance on WIP for what it was (fan service) and have instead insisted that Jonesy was injected with some type of truth serum prior to said appearance is absolutely laughable.

The organization’s actions since that statement was made match the words that are coming out of their mouths.

They are telling you what they’re doing. They are showing what they’re doing.

 

[deadhead]

Why does Bonk get mentioned with Cutter and MM, isn't he a ho hum , non big point getting D man ?

Becuase Michkov and Gauthier do not a team make, or McDavid and Draistail would be drinking from the Cup a couple times already. They need a critical mass of talent, not just 2-3 top players.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

When discussing depth players context becomes even more important dude, because measuring their utility through production alone is less viable.

You're talking to the wrong guy about inflating prospects. Holy shit. You're firmly in Strawman territory now. Also, wasn't this about overarching trends? Here's one! The Flyers cannot develop depth players. I try to tell you why and you object, while referencing specific players and trends that don't apply. You're nitpicking.

Sure, if we are talking about a guy with a track record or some kind of actual evidence of something there could be some context to help explain it, But if we are talking about a guy like NAK, who has never had success and had only one half of a season where he played decent and it happened to be on the team that won the Cup, then went to another team and was waived, then went to another team and reverted back to how he was on the Flyers, it does not need context. If it does, please provide the context. Aside from the Avs being the best team in the league and the Flyers being one of the worst, why did he have a better time in Colorado aside from "thEY usEd HiM cORecTlY!" or referencing the fact that a coach said it? Why didn't that translate to Toronto? Why wasn't he brought back? Why is he producing almost identically in Washington to what he was producing here? The obvious answer is that he isn't very good (yes, even if Colorado's coach said the Flyers used him wrong).

If you're talking about overarching trends, their inability to develop depth players without more of any type of explanation other than that blanket statement, was rebuffed by a list of depth players that they have or are currently developing. Your response to that list is to say I am using a strawman argument and say the guys I am mentioning or the trends don't apply? How am I to refute your claims of not developing depth players if I am not allowed to reference depth players that they have developed or appear to be on track in developing? Or are these guys not depth players is that what you are saying?

 

[deadhead]

“No, no you’re not,” Jones said. “The plan would be to get there sooner, obviously, than 2028. We have an idea where we’re going to be a much more competitive team. It’s not that far away."

Briere: “The players will decide how fast this rebuild will go. But, honestly, drafting Matvei Michkov, where we know he’s got three more years left to play in Russia on his contract, kinda fit his timeline. Hopefully it’s quicker than that but we feel when he comes over the base will be solid and we can move in a very positive direction where we can add a player that hopefully can be a game-changer at that time."

Briere: “The (New Jersey) Devils are on the upswing. The (Detroit) Red Wings, the Ottawa Senators, those are teams that have gone through rebuilds, and it’s starting to pay off for them. So we’re probably two or three years behind them, but I think it’s time for us to start looking in the same

Yeah, that sounds really definitive. They're 2-3 years behind teams that have yet to win anything.

In three years, when Michkov comes over, they should be in the playoff hunt, That's still 2-3 years from being a legitimate SC contender. I mean if you add Michkov, Gauthier, (7) 1st and 2nd rd picks in the 2023 and 2024 drafts, and you haven't improved by 20 points - you f**ked up!

 

[Magua]

The only player they have that fits my criteria of reaching a critical mass to contend long-term is Michkov. Everyone else is potpourri. I'll abort any conversation that has Bonk and Gauthier as our Toews and Rantanen.

 

[Larry44]

Because if you can't convince yourself Bonk is the future of the D core, then you have to explain how a team with a projected D core this awful has any hope in hell of ever competing.

This year will tell. A lot of the draft experts really liked Bonk's potential as a top pairing, or at least top 4 dman. He can skate, has decent size, good skill, hockey sense. This year will tell us if he has top end offensive potential or not. He's going to play, where he tops out will be the question, but he's clearly a tier below Cutter and everyone else is several tiers below MM, who looks like he's going to be a star.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

The organization’s actions since that statement was made match the words that are coming out of their mouths.

They are telling you what they’re doing. They are showing what they’re doing.

Trading your clear best defenseman (Provy) is a short term move?

Trying to trade your clear 2nd best defenseman (Sanheim...and it would've been done if not for Krug invoking his NMC) is also a short term move?

Drafting a guy under contract in Putin's Russia for the next 3 years is a short term move?

I agree... they are absolutely showing you what they are doing. And it ain't a quick patch job... unless you have an agenda and absolutely will not admit you were wrong.

I'm focused on the major moves they made. You and Beef are focused on the 2 year contract we gave to a 4th liner, or the 1 year min deal we gave Staal to be our 7th defenseman or the fact that we haven't dealt Scott Laughton yet.

The major moves mean nothing but the marginal moves? That dictates the future of the team!

 

[renberg]

Stuck in an Inky article on Sanheim was the nugget that he broke his foot in the 2022 WC play. That accounts for his slow start to last season. It also makes Tortorella look like an ass for expecting too much of a guy coming off of an injury just like he did with Farabee.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Trading your clear best defenseman (Provy) is a short term move?

Trying to trade your clear 2nd best defenseman (Sanheim...and it would've been done if not for Krug invoking his NMC) is also a short term move?

Drafting a guy under contract in Putin's Russia for the next 3 years is a short term move?

I agree... they are absolutely showing you what they are doing. And it ain't a quick patch job... unless you have an agenda and absolutely will not admit you were wrong.

I'm focused on the major moves they made. You and Beef are focused on the 2 year contract we gave to a 4th liner, or the 1 year min deal we gave Staal to be our 7th defenseman or the fact that we haven't dealt Scott Laughton yet.

The major moves mean nothing but the marginal moves? That dictates the future of the team!

They moved a PR nightmare that wanted out and two Torts malcontents during this rebuild while holding onto players that actually have value. What exactly is major about any of that?

They took Michkov, congrats. They walked into something that for the first time even they couldn’t f*** up.

I have said for years that I don’t know shit about f***. I’ll admit I’m wrong with ease. From where I stand how this organization operates hasn’t changed in the slightest.

For years we’ve been told that those 4th liners or 7th defensemen don’t matter but they really do matter. All of these failures in the margins add up and they have put the organization in the position that they are currently in. I get it though, it’s much easier to point to this “little” things by themselves and say “lol, you think Marc Staal is the biggest issue?!?l then to actually look at the entire body of work.

I have stated for months now that all this team needs to do to get me to say it’s a rebuild is to move ONE single player that wasn’t a malcontent or butted heads with Torts. Just one.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The irony here is that if you truly want to invest in building around Michkov, then now is the time to actually start keeping/adding players, not just liquidating assets.

He lands in 2026 as a 21 year old on a 3 year ELC, quite possibly immediately as a PPG player. It'd be malfeasance to let those ELCs years go to waste because we are too concerned today with taking things hyper-slow. That is why there is value in keeping someone like TK around.

That only works if you have more than what the Flyers do.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You clearly don't get it and/or don't want to get it...

Jones is trying to keep fans/season-ticketholders engaged RIGHT NOW. 2-3 years is an eternity away. And if you actually think the neanderthal boomers are going to be focused in 2025-26 on something Jonesy said in 2023, you've lost the plot.

If the Blackhawks don't make the playoffs this year, but Bedard is a PPG, Blackhawks fans will be giddy. It will be the exact same thing in 2 years but replace Blackhawks with Flyers and Bedard with Cutter/Michkov.

The only way the timeline ever blows back on Jones is if Michkov is still in Russia or struggles when he comes over. And even then, he and Briere will be under fire from fans and potentially get canned, but not for "you lied on WIP about the rebuild timeline" but rather for "you blew a top 10 pick".

The Flyers entire PR strategy right now is appeasing the impatient old school fans until our prospects arrive. That's why the Lindros era jerseys are back. That's why the old center ice logo is back. That's why they're having an "Ed Snider" Night.

The fact that you can't see an appearance on WIP for what it was (fan service) and have instead insisted that Jonesy was injected with some type of truth serum prior to said appearance is absolutely laughable.

I understand marketing. I also understand that they can say one thing and do another. They are saying the thing and also doing the thing.