Training Camp 2023

[pit]

But it's obvious the primary problem was the refusal to rebuild and accumulate draft picks, Hextall did it for one year then stopped.

Which year was that?

2014 when he made only 7 picks in his first season due to Holmgren trading some away?
2015 when he made 9 picks?
2016 when he made 10 picks?
2017 when he made 9 picks?
2018 where he made 8 picks?

Since the draft moved from 9 rounds to 7 rounds in 2005, there have been 18 drafts. The Flyers have had more picks than rounds in 6 of those 18 drafts. 4 of those 6 were Hextall and in 3 of those 4 he had two first rounders. The other was Briere last year and Clarke in 2006.

Say what you like about the quality of those picks, or hell, anything that deserves criticism about Hextall's tenure, but failure to accumulate draft picks was definitely not his shortcoming. It was probably one of his best features.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Briere has been GM since AFTER last year's TDL. All of six months.
Let's wait until say April? before we jump to conclusions?

Or we could watch the same things happening and surmise that the same people are doing the same stuff they've always done. Which is t surprising since nothing changed.

 

[deadhead]

Which year was that?

2014 when he made only 7 picks in his first season due to Holmgren trading some away?
2015 when he made 9 picks?
2016 when he made 10 picks?
2017 when he made 9 picks?
2018 where he made 8 picks?

Since the draft moved from 9 rounds to 7 rounds in 2005, there have been 18 drafts. The Flyers have had more picks than rounds in 6 of those 18 drafts. 4 of those 6 were Hextall and in 3 of those 4 he had two first rounders. The other was Briere last year and Clarke in 2006.

Say what you like about the quality of those picks, or hell, anything that deserves criticism about Hextall's tenure, but failure to accumulate draft picks was definitely not his shortcoming. It was probably one of his best features.

Quality of picks is everything. Or you could trade up without giving up much.
The most important cutoffs are top 5, 15 and top 40.
2014: #17, #48, #86.
2015: #7, #24, #70, #90, #98
2016: #22, #36, #48, #52, #82.
2017 #2 (#13), #27, #35, #80
2018: #14, #19, #50

His first 3 years of rebuilding, he only had 5 picks in the top 40, and 1 in top 15.
Then he sorta reset with the Schenn trade and got lottery luck (which he blew).
In two years. 5 in the top 40 and 2 in the top 15.

 

[freakydallas13]

His first 3 years of rebuilding, he only had 5 picks in the top 40, and 1 in top 15.

It's almost like icing a competitive roster instead of stripping it down to the studs really screwed their draft position.

Thank god the current regime is doing things differently.

 

[pit]

Quality of picks is everything. Or you could trade up without giving up much.
The most important cutoffs are top 5, 15 and top 40.
2014: #17, #48, #86.
2015: #7, #24, #70, #90, #98
2016: #22, #36, #48, #52, #82.
2017 #2 (#13), #27, #35, #80
2018: #14, #19, #50

His first 3 years of rebuilding, he only had 5 picks in the top 40, and 1 in top 15.
Then he sorta reset with the Schenn trade and got lottery luck (which he blew).
In two years. 5 in the top 40 and 2 in the top 15.

Sorry, in your post I missed where you clarified which was the one year he accumulated picks in and then gave up? Can you please let me know?

 

[captainpaxil]

Do you want to go on record saying you think the Flyers in 2 to 3 years will be a second round team, on the precipice to becoming one of the elite teams in the leauge?

My official prediction for the next three years before michkovs arrival.
This year over achieve. Sell spare parts at the deadline pick in mid teens and Florida
Next year bottom out sell tk atinson. Pick top 5 low and high 20s 3 1sts
Sign ufa dman make wildcard pick twice Laughton walks as ufa
Add michkov

 

[deadhead]

Sorry, in your post I missed where you clarified which was the one year he accumulated picks in and then gave up? Can you please let me know?

His only major deals were at the 2015 TDL (Coburn, Kimmo) which got him an extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd in 2015 (#29 & #61 traded for #24) and a 2nd in 2016. Trade down in the 1st rd got another 2nd in exchange for a 3rd.

That was pretty much it until the summer of 2017.
Streit (37) would be traded until the 2017 TDL.
Kept Simmons (26), Voracek (25), Read (28), G (27), Schultz (32), AMac (28), MDZ (24)
Only guys he moves were Vinnie & L Schenn
Didn't have to tear it down to the studs, but he barely took down the wallpaper.

 

[Tripod]

Look at the goalposts swinging in the wind.

First it was accumulation of picks
Then quality of picks
Then trades

All Hextall's fault...Fletch made 1 mistake

DEFEND!

 

[freakydallas13]

His only major deals were at the 2015 TDL (Coburn, Kimmo) which got him an extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd in 2015 (#29 & #61 traded for #24) and a 2nd in 2016. Trade down in the 1st rd got another 2nd in exchange for a 3rd.

That was pretty much it until the summer of 2017.
Streit (37) would be traded until the 2017 TDL.
Kept Simmons (26), Voracek (25), Read (28), G (27), Schultz (32), AMac (28), MDZ (24)
Only guys he moves were Vinnie & L Schenn
Didn't have to tear it down to the studs, but he barely took down the wallpaper.

You still haven't said what the one year he accumulated picks in and was followed by giving up?

 

[deadhead]

Look at the goalposts swinging in the wind.

First it was accumulation of picks
Then quality of picks
Then trades

All Hextall's fault...Fletch made 1 mistake

DEFEND!

Holmgren had a chance to rebuild after 2012, Hextall had a chance to rebuild in 2014, Holmgren could have hired someone to rebuild after 2018, instead he hired Fletcher and told him to "win now."

Hextall of all people should have known the 2015-16 playoffs was a fluke, that Mason had his career year and his meltdown in the playoffs should have made it clear they were mired in mediocrity. Instead, he went with the "non-aggressive reload."

If Hextall moves 2-3 players in the summer of 2015, accepts being out of the playoffs for 2-3 years while he stockpiles picks, by 2020 the rebuild would have been over.

The worst of all worlds for a decade, just good enough to make the playoffs 4 times and get knocked out, and otherwise not bad enough to pick in the top ten (the Patrick pick should have been #13).

 

[Tripod]

2 paragraphs on Hextall

Poor Fletch had no choice but to make bad moves trying to win. But only made 1 mistake.

 

[deadhead]

You still haven't said what the one year he accumulated picks in and was followed by giving up?

Yes I did, he acummulated picks at the 2015 TDL for the 2015 and 2016 drafts, then sat on his hand until just before the 2017 draft. So he took two years off in the middle of a "rebuild" to naval gaze.

 

[deadhead]

2 paragraphs on Hextall

Poor Fletch had no choice but to make bad moves trying to win. But only made 1 mistake.

Fletch actually made good moves to try and win, got Braun, Niskanen and Hayes for Gudas, a 2nd, 3rd, a slightly overpriced contract (pre-COVID) and got them back into the playoffs. Now whether he should have done that, well, that's what he was hired to do. It was the summer of 2021 when he started spiraling downward.

Holmgren had the authority and Hextall the mandate from Snider, and neither rebuilt (you could describe Hextall's efforts as an "aggressive reload" which lost its aggression).

Which is why Briere actually using the word "rebuild" is so important, it's as if there was some primitive taboo that prohibited anyone to even think the idea, much less mention the word. He broke the spell.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Holmgren had a chance to rebuild after 2012, Hextall had a chance to rebuild in 2014, Holmgren could have hired someone to rebuild after 2018, instead he hired Fletcher and told him to "win now."

Hextall of all people should have known the 2015-16 playoffs was a fluke, that Mason had his career year and his meltdown in the playoffs should have made it clear they were mired in mediocrity. Instead, he went with the "non-aggressive reload."

If Hextall moves 2-3 players in the summer of 2015, accepts being out of the playoffs for 2-3 years while he stockpiles picks, by 2020 the rebuild would have been over.

The worst of all worlds for a decade, just good enough to make the playoffs 4 times and get knocked out, and otherwise not bad enough to pick in the top ten (the Patrick pick should have been #13).

I think you make some decent points, but for me (and I'm sure for others too) they largely get overshadowed by the absurd degree you go to in order to defend Chuck. And tbh he's just not worth defending. Holmgren wasn't in Minnesota and Chuck left that team in an awful state all of his own doing. He did something similar here... perhaps even worse.

Whether he had a "mandate" from Holmgren or not is largely irrelevant. If you're the conductor of the train and you see a crash up ahead, you're still responsible for trying to avert it... or at least saving as many lives as possible.

Asserting that Chuck was just a good soldier leading his troops to their death cause his general ordered it isn't a good defense. I think this team and Chuck personally would've ended up a lot better off if he stood up to Holmgren and said "this vision is wrong, you're ruining this team and I won't stand for it". As of now with his record in Minnesota and here, he's basically unemployable in any front office.

And this is all of course even assuming the "Holmgren mandate" (which is a pretty big leap) isn't just fantasy/conjecture. And we're also assuming in this scenario that if the Holmgren mandate was true that Chuck didn't agree with the strategy (again, that's a pretty massive leap). There's nothing about Chuck's time here that suggests he disagreed with the team's direction.

And there's absolutely no defense for what he did to acquire Risto and TDA. You can spend stupidly in free agency to pursue "winning now" without hemorrhaging draft assets ya know, right?

 

[freakydallas13]

Yes I did, he acummulated picks at the 2015 TDL for the 2015 and 2016 drafts, then sat on his hand until just before the 2017 draft. So he took two years off in the middle of a "rebuild" to naval gaze.

So to summarize, Hextall:
-Got a bunch of picks for the 2015 draft.
-drafted 10 times in the 2016 draft (more picks than either the 2015 or 2017 drafts), including once in the first round (22nd) and 3 times in the second round. Also traded down from 18th overall to accumulate more picks.
-Got a bunch of picks for the 2017 draft.

But according to you, Hextall only accumulated draft picks for one year, 2015, and then stopped.

 

[deadhead]

When you're hired with a mandate to take certain actions, it's not up to you to decide your boss is full of shit. Holmgren had enough of Hextall's "rebuild" and wanted it to end. Holmgren had the authority, not Fletcher. Had Fletcher decided to cross Holmgren, he wouldn't have lasted a year.

His record in Minnesota was pretty good, 6 years in the playoffs, 2 second round exits, 3 years 100+ points. The guy who followed him lasted one year. Of course, like Holmgren, some of this was due to abusing the cap.

Fletcher lost it in the summer of 2021, when he decided to placate AV rather than ask Scott to eat $15M. AV wanted Ghost and Voracek gone. Then he doubled down on failure by re-signing instead of trading Risto, extending rather than trading Sanheim, and deciding TDA playing well on the 3rd pair in Carolina meant he could handle a top four role in Philly.

So to summarize, Hextall:
-Got a bunch of picks for the 2015 draft.
-drafted 10 times in the 2016 draft (more picks than either the 2015 or 2017 drafts), including once in the first round (22nd) and 3 times in the second round. Also traded down from 18th overall to accumulate more picks.
-Got a bunch of picks for the 2017 draft.

But according to you, Hextall only accumulated draft picks for one year, 2015, and then stopped.

Who did he trade after the 2015 TDL until the 2017 TDL (Streit two years too late) and Schenn in the summer of 2017. Had the opportunity to actually rebuild in 2015 and blew it.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Do you want to go on record saying you think the Flyers in 2 to 3 years will be a second round team, on the precipice to becoming one of the elite teams in the leauge?

If you can guarantee me that we're going to smash the lottery 2 out of the next 3 years like the Devils did when they turned an 8.5% shot into Nico Hischier and an 11.5% shot into Jack Hughes, then I'd personally be willing to go on record as saying the Flyers would be a playoff team the year Michkov arrives and on the precipice of being elite the year after. Everything is so much easier when the ping pong balls bounce your way. Not so much when you get Nolan Pa-trick-ed.

 

[Tripod]

Those who can't see the BS being spewed, a quick recap.

Hextall didn't accumulate picks, until shown he did.
Then it went to the quality of picks
Hextall neither rebuilt or tried to win

Fletch had the mandate to win, made lots of good moves.

Now, the confusing part...

One GM didn't rebuild or try to compete, yet made the playoffs 2 times in 4.5 years and built a top ranked prospect group by EVERY media group, made lots of mistakes.

The other GM who tried to compete, made the playoffs 1 time in 4.5 years and built a near bottom of the league prospect group, and only made 1 mistake.



Also, imagine finishing 4th worst and 7th worst in the league when TRYING to compete. One mistake.....hahahaha.

Good time to say goodnight....lol.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

It's also not easy for things to go your way when you purposely keep your team mediocre

 

[Flyer lurker]

Look at the goalposts swinging in the wind.

First it was accumulation of picks
Then quality of picks
Then trades

All Hextall's fault...Fletch made 1 mistake

DEFEND!

I'm just glad Flusher accumulated 3 rhd with one year left on their deals instead of draft picks. It helped make us the team we are today.

 

[freakydallas13]

Who did he trade after the 2015 TDL until the 2017 TDL (Streit two years too late) and Schenn in the summer of 2017. Had the opportunity to actually rebuild in 2015 and blew it.

I mean, I agree. He should have tanked harder in 2016 instead of doing a stupid half measure where the team tries to remain competitive and just ends up ruining their draft position. But that is viewing the situation with the benefit of hindsight.

I'm curious. Were you, in 2016, wailing and gnashing your teeth over Hextall not accumulating enough draft picks like you are now?

 

[Deadpool8812]

Hagg on waivers....bring him back! Bring him back!

 

[BillDineen]

Hagg on waivers....bring him back! Bring him back!

JJ is probably begging Briere to claim him!

 

[Beef Invictus]

When you're hired with a mandate to take certain actions, it's not up to you to decide your boss is full of shit. Holmgren had enough of Hextall's "rebuild" and wanted it to end. Holmgren had the authority, not Fletcher. Had Fletcher decided to cross Holmgren, he wouldn't have lasted a year.

His record in Minnesota was pretty good, 6 years in the playoffs, 2 second round exits, 3 years 100+ points. The guy who followed him lasted one year. Of course, like Holmgren, some of this was due to abusing the cap.

Fletcher lost it in the summer of 2021, when he decided to placate AV rather than ask Scott to eat $15M. AV wanted Ghost and Voracek gone. Then he doubled down on failure by re-signing instead of trading Risto, extending rather than trading Sanheim, and deciding TDA playing well on the 3rd pair in Carolina meant he could handle a top four role in Philly.


Who did he trade after the 2015 TDL until the 2017 TDL (Streit two years too late) and Schenn in the summer of 2017. Had the opportunity to actually rebuild in 2015 and blew it.

If Fletcher was mandated to win, then making the team superbly shitty was a bit of a mistake, wasn't it?

He wasn't given a mandate to make the team bad. But that's what he did.

Your fantasized attempt to blame Holmgren just makes him look even worse.

 

[smokey]

Soo, down to 14 fwds on the roster. Im sure theyll give allison the edge and send foerster and brink down.

In a year where the team is supposed to rely on and develop their youth, they stage a "training camp" where said youth actually show their potential, just to ignore all that and instead fill the roster with shitty FA pickups, probably making the roster older than it was the year before.

Not a single fresh prospect in the lineup if Allison makes the team and zamula doesnt. Not one. I mean i get the 3-4 year plan, but wouldn't hurt if even one of the youngsters got a couple seasons worth of exp by then.