Training Camp 2023

[Flyer lurker]

Hagg on waivers....bring him back! Bring him back!

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Let's see how Jersey looks in April, teams come out of nowhere then regress when the rest of the league focuses on them and exploits weaknesses. They have talent, but so does Edmonton and Toronto (as much as NJ in terms of pure skill).

In three years, 2026-27, when Michkov comes over (at 21 he should be a PPG or better forward), Gauthier has two years in the NHL, etc. the Flyers should be a playoff team given the quality of goal tending. You don't need 4 top ten picks in your lineup to be a playoff team. Two scoring lines, solid special teams (net of both PP and PK), four solid D-men and good depth is all it takes.

Hypothetical (things change) team for 2026-27

Farabee (26) - Gauthier (22) - Michkov (21)
Tippett (27) - Frost (27) - Brink (25)
Cates (27) - Couts (34) - Foerster (24)
Desnoyers (24) - Poehling (27) - Wisdom (24)
Kaplan (22), Avon (23)
TK (29) traded?

York (25) - Sanheim (30)
Andrae (24) - Bonk (21)
Zamula (26) - Attard (27)
Grans (24), Samson (23)

Hart (27), Ersson (26), Kolosov (24)

Note that this does not include any 2024 1st and 2nd rd picks (4), who'll be 20 years old starting that season. Nor does it include any potential FAs.

it just moved after seeing that potential lineup

I'm just suspicious of NJ, we'll see how they look this year as teams adjust to them.
I think some players overperformed last season and will come back to earth.

It's not that I expect them to crater, but look at Edmonton, 103 points and 2nd rd exit in 2016-17 then missed the playoffs for two years before becoming a perennial playoff team. Sometimes teams have to learn how to deal with success.


The senior advisors have no cachet with Hilferty, and he's the only one whose opinion matters.
As long as Briere is on the same page with Hilferty on the rebuild, there will be no issues.

that has yet to be determined.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

If Fletcher was mandated to win, then making the team superbly shitty was a bit of a mistake, wasn't it?

He wasn't given a mandate to make the team bad. But that's what he did.

Your fantasized attempt to blame Holmgren just makes him look even worse.

he sucked at his job. No matter what "mandate" he was given he fn failed. Badly.

This is a simple fact. Cant for the life of me understand how it can be defended in anyway.

 

[Tripod]

I mean, I agree. He should have tanked harder in 2016 instead of doing a stupid half measure where the team tries to remain competitive and just ends up ruining their draft position. But that is viewing the situation with the benefit of hindsight.

I'm curious. Were you, in 2016, wailing and gnashing your teeth over Hextall not accumulating enough draft picks like you are now?

Of course not. Back then he kept saying we were "2 years away " from greatness.

I also need to point out this lie:

"Yes I did, he acummulated picks at the 2015 TDL for the 2015 and 2016 drafts, then sat on his hand until just before the 2017 draft. So he took two years off in the middle of a "rebuild" to naval gaze."

2015 draft he traded up for Konecny
And traded 4th rounder to pick up a 4th and 6th
And dumped Prongers dead money + Grossman for Gagner +4th
And dumped Rinaldo for 3rd
And dumped Vinny +Schenn for Weal +3rd
And dropped down 4 spots in draft to grab a 2nd in exchange for a 3rd
And traded Streit for 4th, 7th +Flip
And traded Cousins for 5th

So he traded up for our now top scorer
Added a NET 7 draft picks and swapped a 3rd for a 2nd
Dumped 5 big contracts
Got great value on 4th liners

Man, imagine this being played off as doing nothing but naval graze. the lies never stop, but need to be called out.

 

[flyersnorth]

 

[Curufinwe]

I think you make some decent points, but for me (and I'm sure for others too) they largely get overshadowed by the absurd degree you go to in order to defend Chuck. And tbh he's just not worth defending. Holmgren wasn't in Minnesota and Chuck left that team in an awful state all of his own doing. He did something similar here... perhaps even worse.

Whether he had a "mandate" from Holmgren or not is largely irrelevant. If you're the conductor of the train and you see a crash up ahead, you're still responsible for trying to avert it... or at least saving as many lives as possible.

Yes, even if Homer told Fletcher to try and keep the team in the top 10 after 19-20 and not rebuild after the disastrous 2021 Covid season, it was entirely Chuck's idea that the best way to do that was to trade a 1st (14th overall), a 2nd (36th overall), another 2nd (39th overall), Ghost and Hagg for Ristolainen. He could have got a MUCH better player for those assets.

There has never been a GM with a more out of control fetish for RH dmen than Chuck Fletcher.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Those who can't see the BS being spewed, a quick recap.

Hextall didn't accumulate picks, until shown he did.
Then it went to the quality of picks
Hextall neither rebuilt or tried to win

Fletch had the mandate to win, made lots of good moves.

Now, the confusing part...

One GM didn't rebuild or try to compete, yet made the playoffs 2 times in 4.5 years and built a top ranked prospect group by EVERY media group, made lots of mistakes.

The other GM who tried to compete, made the playoffs 1 time in 4.5 years and built a near bottom of the league prospect group, and only made 1 mistake.



Also, imagine finishing 4th worst and 7th worst in the league when TRYING to compete. One mistake.....hahahaha.

Good time to say goodnight....lol.

I don’t see any BS being spewed because I have the idjits on captain ignore’s special list. More people need to do the same

 

[deadhead]

Of course not. Back then he kept saying we were "2 years away " from greatness.

I also need to point out this lie:

"Yes I did, he acummulated picks at the 2015 TDL for the 2015 and 2016 drafts, then sat on his hand until just before the 2017 draft. So he took two years off in the middle of a "rebuild" to naval gaze."

2015 draft he traded up for Konecny
And traded 4th rounder to pick up a 4th and 6th
And dumped Prongers dead money + Grossman for Gagner +4th
And dumped Rinaldo for 3rd
And dumped Vinny +Schenn for Weal +3rd
And dropped down 4 spots in draft to grab a 2nd in exchange for a 3rd
And traded Streit for 4th, 7th +Flip
And traded Cousins for 5th

So he traded up for our now top scorer
Added a NET 7 draft picks and swapped a 3rd for a 2nd
Dumped 5 big contracts
Got great value on 4th liners

Man, imagine this being played off as doing nothing but naval graze. the lies never stop, but need to be called out.

So if Briere did that, you'd call that a "rebuild?"
Trade Provorov and Hayes and TDA and a couple other minor guys and call it a day?

The current whining is that Briere is doing what Hextall did (except he actually traded a starter, not just expiring contracts), dump some contracts (easier to get value with a rising cap) and sit on your hands.

Point was Hextall didn't move any major players off that team until Schenn (and then signed JVR) other than the two expiring contracts and a few stiffs. There's a golden mean between a total tear down and half measures. Hextall didn't really want to rebuild, he wanted to shuffle some pieces and try and make the playoffs (signed Weise, traded for Filppula, held on to Streit until his value dissipated, signed Elliott and Neuvirth).

You forgot about trading up for #35 to take Ratcliffe.
Draft trades aren't about rebuilding, they're about trying to increase draft value.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

So if Briere did that, you'd call that a "rebuild?"
Trade Provorov and Hayes and TDA and a couple other minor guys and call it a day?

The current whining is that Briere is doing what Hextall did (except he actually traded a starter, not just expiring contracts), dump some contracts (easier to get value with a rising cap) and sit on your hands.

Point was Hextall didn't move any major players off that team until Schenn (and then signed JVR) other than the two expiring contracts and a few stiffs. There's a golden mean between a total tear down and half measures. Hextall didn't really want to rebuild, he wanted to shuffle some pieces and try and make the playoffs (signed Weise, traded for Filppula, held on to Streit until his value dissipated, signed Elliott and Neuvirth).

You forgot about trading up for #35 to take Ratcliffe.
Draft trades aren't about rebuilding, they're about trying to increase draft value.

chuck sucked. Ronald sucked. NAK sucked. Ghost sucked.

Does that sum it up?

 

[FlyerNutter]

How is this different than Hextall’s BS retool?

Because they now worship the 90s alumni instead?

Pigs squealing daily.

 

[deadhead]

chuck sucked. Ronald sucked. NAK sucked. Ghost sucked.

Does that sum it up?

Pretty much. A decade of incompetence, unfortunately, not gross incompetence, just a series of middling decisions that eroded talent but kept them from drafting in the top ten on a regular basis.

One could say the best thing that happened to this team was CF's meltdown starting in 2021, resulted in a haul for G, and a 5th and 7th pick that landed Gauthier and Michkov.

I'm not passing judgement on Briere for another year or two, there's no reason for him to rush, but also no reason to sit on his hands - we'll see if he can patiently maximize value or if he'll get seduced by a little success into complacency.

 

[freakydallas13]

If Fletcher was mandated to win, then making the team superbly shitty was a bit of a mistake, wasn't it?

He wasn't given a mandate to make the team bad. But that's what he did.

Your fantasized attempt to blame Holmgren just makes him look even worse.

Holmgren burst into Chuck's office and forced him to trade for (and sign) Risto at gun point.

Couldn't be helped.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Pretty much. A decade of incompetence, unfortunately, not gross incompetence, just a series of middling decisions that eroded talent but kept them from drafting in the top ten on a regular basis.

One could say the best thing that happened to this team was CF's meltdown starting in 2021, resulted in a haul for G, and a 5th and 7th pick that landed Gauthier and Michkov.

I'm not passing judgement on Briere for another year or two, there's no reason for him to rush, but also no reason to sit on his hands - we'll see if he can patiently maximize value or if he'll get seduced by a little success into complacency.

What do you think the possibility is they give Torts an extension at some point?

I lean more towards gross incompetence.

I will also give the new co-GM some time. Just not impressed so far. I think he is letting the other co-gm run the ship at the pro level.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So if Briere did that, you'd call that a "rebuild?"
Trade Provorov and Hayes and TDA and a couple other minor guys and call it a day?

The current whining is that Briere is doing what Hextall did (except he actually traded a starter, not just expiring contracts), dump some contracts (easier to get value with a rising cap) and sit on your hands.

Point was Hextall didn't move any major players off that team until Schenn (and then signed JVR) other than the two expiring contracts and a few stiffs. There's a golden mean between a total tear down and half measures. Hextall didn't really want to rebuild, he wanted to shuffle some pieces and try and make the playoffs (signed Weise, traded for Filppula, held on to Streit until his value dissipated, signed Elliott and Neuvirth).

You forgot about trading up for #35 to take Ratcliffe.
Draft trades aren't about rebuilding, they're about trying to increase draft value.

Hextall actually traded starters.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Pretty much. A decade of incompetence, unfortunately, not gross incompetence, just a series of middling decisions that eroded talent but kept them from drafting in the top ten on a regular basis.

One could say the best thing that happened to this team was CF's meltdown starting in 2021, resulted in a haul for G, and a 5th and 7th pick that landed Gauthier and Michkov.

I'm not passing judgement on Briere for another year or two, there's no reason for him to rush, but also no reason to sit on his hands - we'll see if he can patiently maximize value or if he'll get seduced by a little success into complacency.

MELTDOWN????!???!??!

You vigorously defended EVERYTHING he did. Everything.

 

[freakydallas13]

There's a golden mean between a total tear down and half measures.

Lol. Lmao, even.

 

[Curufinwe]

Hextall actually traded starters.

Yes. Schenn did not have an expiring contract - it still had 3 years left.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes. Schenn did not have an expiring contract - it still had 3 years left.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Hartnell too.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Hartnell too.

Ronald actually thought RJ could still play. He was gonna be wiaved and in comes Ronnie to bail them out.

 

[deadhead]

Schenn was traded in 2017, Hextall took over in 2014.
Hartnell was a salary dump of an aging player, no different than Hayes.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Those who can't see the BS being spewed, a quick recap.

Hextall didn't accumulate picks, until shown he did.
Then it went to the quality of picks
Hextall neither rebuilt or tried to win

Fletch had the mandate to win, made lots of good moves.

Now, the confusing part...

One GM didn't rebuild or try to compete, yet made the playoffs 2 times in 4.5 years and built a top ranked prospect group by EVERY media group, made lots of mistakes.

The other GM who tried to compete, made the playoffs 1 time in 4.5 years and built a near bottom of the league prospect group, and only made 1 mistake.



Also, imagine finishing 4th worst and 7th worst in the league when TRYING to compete. One mistake.....hahahaha.

Good time to say goodnight....lol.

The Cha Cha ( Deady ) Slide

 

[smokey]

Honest question, what youth is that 4th line going to protect, now that there's no room for the youth in the lineup?

 

[Curufinwe]

Ronald actually thought RJ could still play. He was gonna be wiaved and in comes Ronnie to bail them out.

Umberger was brought in to be bought out after two years, which is what happened. At the time of the Hartnell trade he had five years of term left, and the Flyers still had Lecavalier's NMC contract, which was thought to be unmovable.

BUYOUT HISTORY​

LENGTH: 2 YEARS
TEAM: Philadelphia Flyers
VALUE: $3,000,000
DATE: Jun. 16, 2016
TYPE: Standard
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]SEASON[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]COST[/TD]
[TD]CAP HIT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2016-17[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,600,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Hartnell ended up being bought out after three years in CBJ.

BUYOUT HISTORY​

LENGTH: 4 YEARS
TEAM: Columbus Blue Jackets
VALUE: $5,000,000
DATE: Jun. 29, 2017
TYPE: Standard
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]SEASON[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]COST[/TD]
[TD]CAP HIT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$3,000,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Umberger was brought in to be bought out after two years, which is what happened. At the time of the Hartnell trade he had five years of term left, and the Flyers still had Lecavalier's NMC contract, which was thought to be unmovable.

BUYOUT HISTORY​

LENGTH: 2 YEARS
TEAM: Philadelphia Flyers
VALUE: $3,000,000
DATE: Jun. 16, 2016
TYPE: Standard
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]SEASON[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]COST[/TD]
[TD]CAP HIT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2016-17[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,600,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Hartnell ended up being bought out after three years in CBJ.

BUYOUT HISTORY​

LENGTH: 4 YEARS
TEAM: Columbus Blue Jackets
VALUE: $5,000,000
DATE: Jun. 29, 2017
TYPE: Standard
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]SEASON[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]COST[/TD]
[TD]CAP HIT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,500,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$3,000,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[TD]$1,250,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ronald still though he could play and contribute. He said as much.

 

[deadhead]

I can't believe people are defending Hextall with all we know.
He wasn't awful, he was just painfully mediocre and kept the team in limbo, neither good enough to compete nor bad enough to draft in the top ten.

The team he left behind in 2018 was just as bad as the team he inherited in 2014.
G (31), Couts (26), Voracek (29), Simmons (30), JVR (29), Raffl (30), Gudas (28)
TK (21), Ghost (25), Sanheim (22), Provorov (22), Lindblom (22), Laughton (24), Patrick (20), NAK (22), Hart (20)
Some bad luck with Lindblom and Patrick. But not enough of a young core to stay competitive.

And yes, Holmgren was responsible for the moves in the summer of 2019, he made it clear he wanted to get back to the playoffs. There were limited options once they knew Patrick was damaged goods. Hayes or Duchene (headed to Nashville on an overpay) to fill the center hole.

2021-23 was on Fletcher (with a little prompting from Barber). Drawing to inside straights trying to keep his job and wondering why he lost every deal.