Trading out the core for a rebuild?

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'd love someone to answer me.

Who are the slow players on the Kings? King is gone. Greene is a nonfactor. Toffoli is about it.

We have speed. Especially in the youth and coming up. To me, the "kings are slow" is a meme now that people are repeating like "the kings are big and tough."

 

[Johnny Utah]

Let's put it this way the only fast players are Lewis, Carter and Kempe.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

I'd love someone to answer me.

Who are the slow players on the Kings? King is gone. Greene is a nonfactor. Toffoli is about it.

We have speed. Especially in the youth and coming up. To me, the "kings are slow" is a meme now that people are repeating like "the kings are big and tough."

Kopitar this season is slow but I agree with you. This mostly same roster outskated the Hawks in the 2014. It's the transition game that's slowing the team down. The two d-men pass back and forth 2-3 times before making a pass up the ice. That'll slow any team down. Only the most elite skating players would be able to still break down a defense after that.

Edit: Well the roster isn't close to the same but you get my point. Not like they lost any fast skaters from that 2014 team. Williams, Richards, Stoll, Mitchell. None of them are fast skaters.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Speaking of speed...


The Kings as a whole move at a snail's pace, and all season long this has been a boring team to watch. Without a doubt the most boring team in the NHL.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

The Kings as a whole move at a snail's pace, and all season long this has been a boring team to watch. Without a doubt the most boring team in the NHL.

One of the most boring sure but I've watched a few New Jersey games and a few Detroit games and they're unbearable. I'd honestly rather watch baseball than watch those two teams.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Let's put it this way the only fast players are Lewis, Carter and Kempe.

Pearson? Gaborik? Martinez? etc.

Again, it's just a tired meme.

No, we're not faster than Pittsburgh. No, that doesn't make us slow. We sure are playing slow, but the personnel is changing.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

One of the most boring sure but I've watched a few New Jersey games and a few Detroit games and they're unbearable. I'd honestly rather watch baseball than watch those two teams.

The Kings at least bore us and slow the game down by controlling the puck, not by going into the new neutral zone trap (hello, Carolina). It's methodical, but it's not passive playing not-to-lose.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

The Kings at least bore us and slow the game down by controlling the puck, not by going into the new neutral zone trap (hello, Carolina). It's methodical, but it's not passive playing not-to-lose.

Oh yeah, I forgot Carolina. That Detroit 4-0 loss though was one of the most boring games I've ever seen in my life and I've been to well over 300 games.I fell asleep. Maybe 1 of 3 times I've ever fallen asleep at a game. Wasn't even impressed with the opposing team.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I'd love someone to answer me.

Who are the slow players on the Kings? King is gone. Greene is a nonfactor. Toffoli is about it.

We have speed. Especially in the youth and coming up. To me, the "kings are slow" is a meme now that people are repeating like "the kings are big and tough."

Yeah. Whatever the Kings are, they've been ineffective. It's been the case, even in the best of times, that if this team doesn't pass well, they might as well be the worst team in the league. The Kings were always greater than the sum of their parts. They worked as a unit. This year they've been disjointed. More so than in previous seasons with basically the same cast. What other team has had every guy that played in the World Cup come up with a bad season? Quick and Gaborik get hurt. Kopitar. Doughty has been off from the start. Whatever happened to Muzzin since the playoffs last year. 4 of those 5 guys weren't supposed to be question marks this year. They were all supposed to be locks.

 

[BigKing]

NHL hockey as a whole isn't as exciting as it used to be.

I've been saying it for awhile now that it sucks but the Kings have been winning or "in the chase" so it hasn't been as evident.

Well, now they suck and you have people falling asleep while attending games.

Save the responses of "Ohh McDavid and the youth in the league and, like, people skate faster than before". That's fine and dandy, but that only applies to a certain number of teams.

I had Center Ice from 1999-2010 and could find a reason to watch almost any game without that reason being because of "Player X" but more because of the actual story line between the two teams.

Now it is a good way to fall asleep on the couch.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If only the Kings had this attitude...
http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...man-duncan-keith-feel-lucky-part-organization

ESPN.com: Although the core is the same, there are a lot of new faces in your dressing room this season. How does this team keep reinventing itself year after year?

Keith: It's not like we didn't have our struggles throughout the season, but I think that -- especially over the past month, with the roll we've been on -- we're a confident group right now. We've got a great core, a group of guys who care and want to win. We're not satisfied. I feel lucky to be part of that, to play with guys like Marian Hossa, Brent Seabrook, and Kaner [Patrick Kane] and [Jonathan] Toews, and have a goalie like Corey [Crawford]. The list goes on. You also have to give our management and coaches a lot of credit too. Management for finding guys to come in and play and fill voids left by the guys before. And the coaches for being able to assimilate everybody and find new roles for guys and get us all on the same page year after year when there is so much turnover.

It's almost like they know how to adapt to change, something that is a foreign concept to the relics of the past who manage and coach this team.

 

[KINGS17]

If only the Kings had this attitude...
http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...man-duncan-keith-feel-lucky-part-organization



It's almost like they know how to adapt to change, something that is a foreign concept to the relics of the past who manage and coach this team.

The core talented players have to be the leaders as well. Not the case with the Kings.

Quick is a leader, the rest are questionable.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

If only the Kings had this attitude...
http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...man-duncan-keith-feel-lucky-part-organization



It's almost like they know how to adapt to change, something that is a foreign concept to the relics of the past who manage and coach this team.

Also helps that the entire core of their team is playing well. Kane, Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, and Crawford are all having great seasons again. Then you throw in guys like Panarin, Anisimov, and Hartman and you have something really good there.

Kings, the core isn't even playing well. Kopitar- terrible season. Doughty- less than average season. Muzzin-AWFUL season. Toffoli-poor season. Carter/Pearson-Great seasons but slumping lately. Quick-out 80% of the season.

You can talk about the complimentary pieces all you want but if the core isn't even playing well then you have no chance.

 

[KingsFan7824]

If only the Kings had this attitude...
http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...man-duncan-keith-feel-lucky-part-organization



It's almost like they know how to adapt to change, something that is a foreign concept to the relics of the past who manage and coach this team.

Any time Kopitar and Doughty want to lead this team, I'm sure they've been more than welcome to it. Then again, maybe they are. Kopitar usually hibernates during the season, and that's infected most of the team this year. Doughty is "bored" at practice, which probably rubs off on other guys. At least they're getting paid.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Seems like everyone has just become complacent. Wonder if the loss of playoff revenue is getting anyone at AEG upset. Tim Leiweke is no longer here, but you know he wouldn't be satisfied with this. I don't think Luc has that kind of power with Anschutz, but Lombardi has to answer for this monumental debacle that's been ongoing for three straight years.

 

[BigKing]

I was on record here saying that this team would never win anything with Kopitar/Brown as its leadership core.

Then they went on to win some Cups and stuff.

Still, Brown didn't seem to kick it into gear until he was rumored to be moved while having DL's favorite player in Richards traded for some months prior.

Greene's biggest asset was his leadership. He's been a non-factor except for counting against the cap since 2015. Williams has been mentioned several times in the past as a guy that was a real leader on this team. Mitchell...Stoll etc.

All these veteran leaders are missing from this team and, unfortunately, the guy that gets mentioned maybe more than anyone as a leader of this team is the ****ing goalie and he was gone for most of the season.

We aren't in the locker room so it is all speculation on who leads and whatnot, but Carter is the only guy in the media that has seemed like one with Jarome effing Iginla being the only one on the ice last night.

The $14MM Captain needs to do more. I understand (hope?) that his poor season may be due to injury and, whether that is the case or not, I expect a bounce back season next year.

With that being said, I still need more from him than just a return to 70 points, if that makes sense.

 

[Fat Elvis]

The more I think about it, the more I lean towards dealing and rebooting. As most have mentioned, something is just Off this season. At this point, there's arguments that could be made to deal any and all players. The whole 70's line, the top 4 dmen could all be fair game and maybe they should be. Moving Brown, Gaborik, Quick and Kopitar with their contract is near impossible (whether they should or shouldn't). 2 cups was more than amazing, because i was shocked to get the 1. But now maybe it's time to reinvent the roster and by moving 2 or 3 "core" players, it could happen in 1 off season. Or not, just thinking....

 

[Fishhead]

I don't recall a team trading away players with the caliber of Kopitar, Doughty, Quick and Carter and choosing to go with a rebuild. I think this would be the kind of thing where ownership steps in and puts an end to that nonsense. I'd like to be a fly on the wall if Lombardi goes up to Anschutz to bring up this idea. I can see an argument for just Carter, but multiple moves involving these players? Not a chance.

What has really brought this team down this season is that the top players are not performing sans Pearson, Carter and Doughty. When I see multiple players struggling at the same time, then I personally think its the coaching. And I do think for some players having a new voice is refreshing. RJ has touched upon it in various threads, but 5 years is a long time and the message can get a bit stale. No doubt that changes are needed in management and personnel though.

A lot of that first part is the cap. If a team trades a high value player like a Kopitar or Doughty who makes a lot of money to rebuild, they are going to want great young players in return, who will be cost controlled due to their age. The rub is that teams wanting to take on a Kopitar or Doughty are going to need all that young, cost controlled talent to stay under the cap.

Conditions where a good team can take on a 7M contract and give up top young talent are rare. Obviously the trade deadline is the best time for moves like that since space is pro-rated. It would be an all or none gamble though because of the price.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Greene's biggest asset was his leadership. He's been a non-factor except for counting against the cap since 2015. Williams has been mentioned several times in the past as a guy that was a real leader on this team. Mitchell...Stoll etc.

All these veteran leaders are missing from this team and, unfortunately, the guy that gets mentioned maybe more than anyone as a leader of this team is the ****ing goalie and he was gone for most of the season.

Mitchell and Greene were injured in 2013, while Williams, Stoll, Regehr, and even Richards, were here in 14-15. Sutter was the coach in 2012, and 2014, and the Cup was won different ways each time. We're all just grasping at straws trying to find reasons.

A lot of that first part is the cap. If a team trades a high value player like a Kopitar or Doughty who makes a lot of money to rebuild, they are going to want great young players in return, who will be cost controlled due to their age. The rub is that teams wanting to take on a Kopitar or Doughty are going to need all that young, cost controlled talent to stay under the cap.

Conditions where a good team can take on a 7M contract and give up top young talent are rare. Obviously the trade deadline is the best time for moves like that since space is pro-rated. It would be an all or none gamble though because of the price.

It would be tough to trade Kopitar for any number of reasons. First, NMC. Second, $10m cap hit. Third, signed until 2024.

Doughty, the sooner you trade him, the better. GM's can fit $7m for a couple years much easier than Kopitar's contract. Doughty traded this summer, with 2 full years left, gets a lot. Doughty at the 2019 deadline, he gets a lot, but not as much. It's not going to happen, but if you want to trade him, sooner the better. Again, we go back to the old saying about trading guys a year too early or a year too late. You don't want Doughty getting to the point where he starts asking out, or the pressure of him being a UFA reaches the headlines, or if they can't open any cap space and get worse next year.

Again, not going to happen, but Doughty probably won't get better when you have to pay him even more. More likely than not, Toffoli and Pearson won't get better next season either. Neither guy is going to double or triple their production next year from career highs, while their new contracts will almost certainly at least double.

 

[BigKing]

To the above, I still maintain that 2015 was an aberration and a fluke of a season.

They will also be a better team than this year's squad. They also missed the playoffs with 95 points due to a horrendous OT/SO record.

They avoid OT/SO if Kopitar doesn't have such a **** season.

I'm not grasping at straws to find a reason for why they haven't been as good as 2012-'14 since there are numerous on-ice factors that can easily be cited: I'm doubting Kopitar's leadership.

I doubted it leading up to 2012 and I'm doubting it today. It's his team now and he's 0-1. I'm hoping that changes.

 

[Reclamation Project]

I'd love someone to answer me.

Who are the slow players on the Kings? King is gone. Greene is a nonfactor. Toffoli is about it.

We have speed. Especially in the youth and coming up. To me, the "kings are slow" is a meme now that people are repeating like "the kings are big and tough."

Almost every player on this team has had a slow brain this year.

 

[AlphaBravo]

I think what happened the last three years also goes to show you how hard it is to win a cup. Basically, so many things need to come together magically to go on a deep run and win the big prize. In 2012, we had a nearly perfect defense and incredible forward talent, at least in the top 6, that were hungry to win and dominated every team that they faced. Also, in 2012, other than Vancouver, who was one of the hottest teams at the time, we faced pretty easy competition on the road to the cup. There were no beasts like Chicago, or now, Pittsburgh.

Also, in 2014, I think we had a stacked team up and down the lineup, which we cannot replicate because of cap implications. Moreover, nearly everyone on that team was a veteran oozing with intangibles (Richards, Williams, Stoll, Mitchell, Regher) along with skills.

Even if we got the contracts of Brown and Gaborik off the books, and replaced them with legit top 6 forwards, going on a deep run and actually winning the cup may not happen for a very very long time (sadly, maybe not again). Take a look at the Sharks as an example. For the last 5 years, they have had a very deep and talented team, and still cannot win. Same goes for the Caps.

The way I see it, enjoy those 2012-2014 years and the cups that we won, and just view the current squad as a completely different roster and team that needs to build up to that level again. The good thing is we have a very talented and young defense, and now need to focus on building up our offensive depth. We may be able to do the latter via a new coach that will bring the most out of Gaborik and Brown (along with others), or by miraculously dumping Gaborik and Brown and replacing them.

One step at a time.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Almost every player on this team has had a slow brain this year.

Absolutely. Played slow through being dumb. But slow of footspeed? Most of those relics are gone.

 

[Reaper45]

If you think that the Kings core is capable of winning another Stanley Cup then you don't do anything. But if you don't think the core as it's currently assembled is capable of winning another Stanley Cup you begin a small reload or retooling. The Kings have a finite amount of tradable assets. No one is going to touch Brown, though he's still a solid 3rd liner. No one is going to touch Gaborik because of his contract. It's career suicide for Lombardi or any new GM to come in and move Kopitar or Doughty. These guys aren't going anywhere, though I could see a buyout/waive of Gaborik. The assets the Kings should be looking to cash in on are the older assets that still hold value. Martinez, Muzzin, Carter. We've already seen a reload on the fly so to speak in regards to the defense with the additions of Forbort, Gravel and LaDue and a small one at forward by moving King and bringing up Kempe. Why can't we continue that roster turnover by dealing off Carter and potentially Martinez? Why are people so against this? I use Ottawa as an example but they could be a suitor for Carter. Pageau and a 2018 1st would be a good start to a reload. You could run him as a 2c or 3c with Kempe taking the other and Shore handling the 4c. The Is,angers could be another destination for Carter. Plenty of teams could use Muzzin or Martinez. Detroit, Dallas, Colorado, Toronto, Florida, and so on.

 

[LAKings88]

I don't think you will get a player of Carter's caliber for the cap hit.

I would trade Muzzin and Clifford this offseason.

Maybe Lewis gets plucked by Vegas.

Not monumental by any means but a little culture change.