Miro4Norris
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- Jan 24, 2021
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Is the impact of #1 Winger criminally underrated?
- Thread starter Miro4Norris
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Crow
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- Jun 13, 2010
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I think you have to be a BIG time impact wing to be more impactful than a 1C. An equal level 1C > 1W. But obviously, Ovechkin > Backstrom and Panarin > Zibs.
Bounces R Way
Registered User
Probably a bit yeah, I dunno about 'criminally' though. Wingers generally have the least defensive responsibilities of all positions but a really good 1st line W that can carry an offense and consistently create chances can definitely have as much or more impact as a 1C, 1D, or 1G. A great center that doesn't have any other top line fwds to work with is going to struggle to produce.
Maybe I'm wrong but I'm under the impression in Canada winger is seen more of a left over position and all the best forwards play center, even if if they were naturally more suited to wing? I might be off, but my gut feeling is talent like Kurri, Jagr or even Selänne, arguably the most natural winger of the bunch, would've been developed as centers in Canada. Or Rantanen as a more recent example. Likewise if McDavid or MacKinnon were euros, I think there's a good possibility they would've ended up as wingers.
- Oct 10, 2007
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Chet Manley
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Pretty much take any of those 1D off of the team and none of them make it past the 2nd round. The game is about more than counting points but most awards are just that.
BKarchitect
Registered User
I mean some of those are debatable - defenseman value can be a bit harder to quantify than a winger who goes on a scoring binge.
Some of it is contextual. A certain star winger may be valued as a bigger star than a team’s non-superstar 25 minute per night bedrock defenseman…but often that same team may be better equipped to make-up for that winger being out of the line-up than replacing that #1 defender and having to shift every other defenseman up into a higher role.
There are inherently 12 forwards and often guys who are depth but can score are stuck in lesser roles. There are only 6 blueliners and the way minutes are usually distributed, losing that #1 guy can just have a monumental cascading effect.
There are maybe a few cases where a team’s overwhelmingly most important forward and offensive engine is a winger (Kucherov in Tampa, Pastrnak in Boston, Kaprizov in Minnesota) - where certainly you can argue the opposite but that has less to do with winger vs blueliner and more to do with who drives the offense.
Dumais
It's All In The Reflexes
- Jul 24, 2013
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It's the extra responsibilities as a center position that makes it more valuable. Faceoffs (meaning PK/PP time), supporting dmen, pivot guy etc. a total team player. The fascinating part (to me at least) is how a center can have an average shot, average playmaking, average d and if he's good in the faceoffs; coaches will pair them with higher skilled wingers. In some cases, wingers (shooters/playmakers) can make up for weak centers.
Miro4Norris
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Well, the only case I can remember of these winners winning without their #1D or #1W is actually when Letang got injured in 2017 before the playoffs and Pens ended up winning it all so that doesn’t support your claim
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CowbellConray
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I mean if we remove 82 games and only focus on impacts in the playoffs and extremely small sample sizes where timely scoring is incredibly important, and star players earn their stripes by stepping up, you could say that in those situations wingers may be underrated. You could say 4th liners are underrated as well. Or goalies. In small sample sizes, every player in every role is underrated to a degree as their contributions are that much more important. Saying wingers are more important to team development and success of a franchise than a cornerstone #1 D is something I very much so disagree with.
No team is won or lost from one player. However, great wingers are easier to come by compared to defensemen, and defensemen are harder to draft and develop than wingers. It's a numbers and percentages game. Players drafted as Centers can convert to wingers, but not defense. There are 6 spots for defenseman, but 8 wing spots on each team, so more spots for play time. There are also more wingers in the NHL in any given year, allowing for evaluation of talent and the ability to trade for those types of players. And, look at the defensemen who have elevated their teams to cup wins - most of them have been drafted by their team's and have been held onto for years because filling that hole is so important.
The Avs had a #1 C and #1 W for two-3 years prior to Makar elevating their team.
Hedman developing and taking the reigns elevated Tampa, and their defense was clearly not good enough if he goes down in the playoffs (although to say Kucherov is underrated is a little insane, he is a top 3 player in the game...).
Ovi was one of the best players in the game for years and couldnt make it out of the second round until Evgeni stepped his game up as a strong center. And Carlson was drafted in 2008 and played on that team for 15 years
Kessel had years as the focal point on Toronto and had nothing to show for it. He goes to a team with 2 to flight Centers and wins. Meanwhile Letang has three cups and Pitt refuses to get rid of him
Doughty was drafted and held onto, Williams has been to several teams
Tkachuk won his cup with his second team after being traded. They held onto Ekblad for a decade
Keith was drafted and played for the Hawks for 15 years
Pietrangelo was with the Blues for over a decade
Wingers may have better impact in a very small sample size (7 game series), but organizations understand that Defensemen and Centers are more important year over year
Matty Sundin
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- Jul 18, 2006
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it gets overlooked because typically a number 1 center man can make his wingers look better then they are.
WarriorofTime
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- Jul 3, 2010
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Tkachuk
Stone
Rantanen
Kucherov
Kucherov
Tarasenko
Ovechkin
Guentzel/Kessel
Kessel
Kane/Hossa
Gaborik
Kane/Hossa
The idea that teams win Cups without superstar wingers appears to be largely a myth
Stone
Rantanen
Kucherov
Kucherov
Tarasenko
Ovechkin
Guentzel/Kessel
Kessel
Kane/Hossa
Gaborik
Kane/Hossa
The idea that teams win Cups without superstar wingers appears to be largely a myth
I think elite wingers can be underrated, as most of them can drive a line offensively and that’s the typical advantage of having a high end center. The big thing I think is it tends to be easier to find good complimentary wingers than good complimentary centers. So I think it tends to be easier to build around centers and find the wingers later.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Some people are a bit crazy when it comes to downplaying the value of wingers. It's not like every center is automatically good at faceoffs and defense and should get that positional boost just from playing the middle.
biturbo19
Registered User
- Jul 13, 2010
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I don't think it's criminally underrated at all. It's just a reality that Centers and Defencemen impact the game in a more extensive way.
But there is a class of truly "elite" sort of "play driving catalyst wingers" who are a little bit of a unique case. Guys like Kucherov, Kaprizov, et al who act as the de facto "center" in a lot of aspects of the game on their line. They're the primary puck carrier, puck distributor, scorer, and just generally take over the ice the most...even as a winger. Patty Kane was the prototype of this in the modern game back when he wasn't old and broken. The Hawks made hay with him just carrying an offensive line and making it work with whoever. But still...none of that goes anywhere without a guy like Toews locking it down at 1C as a terrific two-way presence.
So there are ways to build around it. But ultimately...a 1C and 1D are pieces you simply cannot build a legit Cup Team without. 1W...tons of teams have won without one.
But there is a class of truly "elite" sort of "play driving catalyst wingers" who are a little bit of a unique case. Guys like Kucherov, Kaprizov, et al who act as the de facto "center" in a lot of aspects of the game on their line. They're the primary puck carrier, puck distributor, scorer, and just generally take over the ice the most...even as a winger. Patty Kane was the prototype of this in the modern game back when he wasn't old and broken. The Hawks made hay with him just carrying an offensive line and making it work with whoever. But still...none of that goes anywhere without a guy like Toews locking it down at 1C as a terrific two-way presence.
So there are ways to build around it. But ultimately...a 1C and 1D are pieces you simply cannot build a legit Cup Team without. 1W...tons of teams have won without one.
Bounces R Way
Registered User
Wingers are a temperamental bunch. I agree with you but I do feel like it's very hard to win the cup when your best player is a winger. For social cases like Ovechkin, Kane, and Kucherov an exception to that rule should probably be made. These are generational players at their position and the league will be poorer when they're gone.
Calgary has been trying to build around wingers since Iginla lit the world on fire in 2002 and along with Kipper nearly dragged a bunch of plumbers to a SC in 2004. I gotta tell ya the results generally with this strategy have not been great. Gaudreau and Tkachuk also elite wingers and hey big shocker the one that gets traded to a team with a top 5 C immediately makes the final in b2b years.
Bank Shot
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2006
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It definitely seems alot easier to acquire a superstar/elite winger in trade or free agency than a number 1 star Dman though.
When you look at your list 4 guys on that list are homegrown. Of the number 1 dmen for those teams, 7 were homegrown.
The only exceptions are Forsling who was found on waivers before he became a number 1 Dman, and Pietrangelo who left St.Louis as a free agent.
I feel like a team is in a pretty good spot if they need to add a winger as their final piece.
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