Trading out the core for a rebuild?

[KINGS17]

If you think that the Kings core is capable of winning another Stanley Cup then you don't do anything. But if you don't think the core as it's currently assembled is capable of winning another Stanley Cup you begin a small reload or retooling. The Kings have a finite amount of tradable assets. No one is going to touch Brown, though he's still a solid 3rd liner. No one is going to touch Gaborik because of his contract. It's career suicide for Lombardi or any new GM to come in and move Kopitar or Doughty. These guys aren't going anywhere, though I could see a buyout/waive of Gaborik. The assets the Kings should be looking to cash in on are the older assets that still hold value. Martinez, Muzzin, Carter. We've already seen a reload on the fly so to speak in regards to the defense with the additions of Forbort, Gravel and LaDue and a small one at forward by moving King and bringing up Kempe. Why can't we continue that roster turnover by dealing off Carter and potentially Martinez? Why are people so against this? I use Ottawa as an example but they could be a suitor for Carter. Pageau and a 2018 1st would be a good start to a reload. You could run him as a 2c or 3c with Kempe taking the other and Shore handling the 4c. The Is,angers could be another destination for Carter. Plenty of teams could use Muzzin or Martinez. Detroit, Dallas, Colorado, Toronto, Florida, and so on.

I think these are solid ideas. I don't think this team will contend in the next few years. If the GM makes the same assessment, why wouldn't you move Carter this off season and get max value for him in return?

Also agree, Muzzin or Martinez can be dealt, preferably Martinez. Florida and Toronto are two teams looking for an upgrade on defense with talented young forwards the Kings might want to view as a trading partner.

Doughty's contract expires in two more seasons. Sometime between now and then the Kings are going to have to convince him the organization has another run in them within first 5 years of his next deal.

Again, none of this matters if the 1C doesn't play like a $10M player.

 

[BigKing]

If you think that the Kings core is capable of winning another Stanley Cup then you don't do anything. But if you don't think the core as it's currently assembled is capable of winning another Stanley Cup you begin a small reload or retooling. The Kings have a finite amount of tradable assets. No one is going to touch Brown, though he's still a solid 3rd liner. No one is going to touch Gaborik because of his contract. It's career suicide for Lombardi or any new GM to come in and move Kopitar or Doughty. These guys aren't going anywhere, though I could see a buyout/waive of Gaborik. The assets the Kings should be looking to cash in on are the older assets that still hold value. Martinez, Muzzin, Carter. We've already seen a reload on the fly so to speak in regards to the defense with the additions of Forbort, Gravel and LaDue and a small one at forward by moving King and bringing up Kempe. Why can't we continue that roster turnover by dealing off Carter and potentially Martinez? Why are people so against this? I use Ottawa as an example but they could be a suitor for Carter. Pageau and a 2018 1st would be a good start to a reload. You could run him as a 2c or 3c with Kempe taking the other and Shore handling the 4c. The Is,angers could be another destination for Carter. Plenty of teams could use Muzzin or Martinez. Detroit, Dallas, Colorado, Toronto, Florida, and so on.

Kopi and Dewy and Quickie! These are the same guys that won the Cup! Martinez scored the GWG in 2014...you can't trade him!

This board knew the team was not as good as even the year before but it was business as usual with management. Then you get the truth from Sutter's mouth in March about how this team is middle of the pack at best, something he knew going in to the season based on his demeanor this year.

They rode one more year of higher ticket prices and so forth by bringing the band back together again, selling it as more than what it really was. Start trading favorites off of the Cup teams for more of future assets and these bandwagoners paying for high ticket prices will see it as a sign of the team admitting they aren't a contender.

Now they have a result that can't be argued away no matter how much anyone wants to claim the Quick injury ruined the season. They choked last season so this is just a continuation.

No threat of losing fairweather fans with money: they are already out the door. I will be shocked if this team doesn't move a $4MM+ contract in the off-season unless the expansion draft is a godsend.

 

[Fishhead]

I think these are solid ideas. I don't think this team will contend in the next few years. If the GM makes the same assessment, why wouldn't you move Carter this off season and get max value for him in return?

Also agree, Muzzin or Martinez can be dealt, preferably Martinez. Florida and Toronto are two teams looking for an upgrade on defense with talented young forwards the Kings might want to view as a trading partner.

Doughty's contract expires in two more seasons. Sometime between now and then the Kings are going to have to convince him the organization has another run in them within first 5 years of his next deal.

Again, none of this matters if the 1C doesn't play like a $10M player.

I'm not sold on our rookies on D being able to push the play yet, it's a noticeable problem. But if one of those two are moved, I certainly don't want to see a Visnovsky type trade with two coming back. It needs to be for some serious quality somewhere in age between Kempe and Toffoli/Pearson.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Would hate to lose Gravel and not sure if the Kings can afford Killorn but think there's something to be done there? Tampa Bay badly needs to shed salary and are looking for a very cheap, young d-man. Cap space obviously would depend on a lot of different things (Toffoli/Pearson extension, who's traded, who's lost to Vegas, etc).

Edit: Either Killorn or Palat but Killorn seems like more of a Western Conference player.

 

[Sacha Baron Corbin]

Would hate to lose Gravel and not sure if the Kings can afford Killorn but think there's something to be done there? Tampa Bay badly needs to shed salary and are looking for a very cheap, young d-man. Cap space obviously would depend on a lot of different things (Toffoli/Pearson extension, who's traded, who's lost to Vegas, etc).

Edit: Either Killorn or Palat but Killorn seems like more of a Western Conference player.

No thank you

 

[BigKing]

Agree with Fish. I know we are happy with the young defensemen and Kempe, but none of them are world beaters at this point and they may never be. Forbort is not a legit #2 defenseman even if he plays with Doughty, Gravel is still soft and LaDue is going to have a lot of growing pains on the defensive side of the puck.

It's early to just say "insert young x for current y" and expect it to make the team better next season.

Voynov came in and got to play with, who, Willie Mitchell? LaDue is playing with Brayden McNabb. There is only one guy who can shelter young defensemen on this team and, unfortunately, he can't be triple shifted.

Gravel won't bring back much of anything in a trade, at least not an impact forward. If Martinez is moved, Muzzin needs to regain his form or it will be a **** show back there again.

This meme that this is the best Kings defensive corp since 2014 is laughable when I look at a team with the 3rd best PK in the league, a goal differential of only -4 and the 7th fewest total goals against but the 2nd pairing is a combined -35.

If you want to say on paper and exclude Voynov from 2015 then I guess, but Muzzin isn't playing on paper this season. Or maybe he is and that's why he can't skate anymore. Regardless, the defense from 2-6 isn't amazing. Potential is there but it isn't an awesome lineup. Nobody is scared of it.

The blueline has combined for only 30 goals this season. An average of 5 a piece between 1-6. Martinez has two goals since December 10th.

I watch every game. I know it is bad but then I dive into the stats and it's pretty horrific.

Worst team since 2009. Worst team to watch since the end of the AM era. At least back then, you had wrecking ball Brown and then Kopitar as a rookie in 2007. This year, I guess it's watching Carter--a guy you already know is great--and then Forbort's development while watching a bunch of highly paid guys under perform.

Real trying season which most of us saw coming a mile away, yet here we are watching all of the games. Kudos to us. I look forward to us all *****ing about everything all summer haha.

 

[KINGS17]

I'm not sold on our rookies on D being able to push the play yet, it's a noticeable problem. But if one of those two are moved, I certainly don't want to see a Visnovsky type trade with two coming back. It needs to be for some serious quality somewhere in age between Kempe and Toffoli/Pearson.

The Visnovsky trade was one of the best deals Dean ever made.

I would not be opposed at all to getting a good young forward and maybe a pick for Martinez. Even a good young forward would be enough.

Since I don't think this team will contend for at least a few years, I am not worried about getting better next season. I want to get a forward in his early 20's already playing in the NHL. The Kings need the cap space and hopefully along with it a little more skill up front.

 

[CowMix]

Trading Martinez instead of Muzzin will just become another post 2014 DL trade mistake we will be talking about next year. Muzzin will have a better return and I'm not confident he will bounce back next year, the types of mistakes hes making this year again and again inspire very little confidence. He just looks lost and seems that the style most NHL teams are playing now are just too fast for him.

 

[kings11]

Trading Martinez instead of Muzzin will just become another post 2014 DL trade mistake we will be talking about next year. Muzzin will have a better return and I'm not confident he will bounce back next year, the types of mistakes hes making this year again and again inspire very little confidence. He just looks lost and seems that the style most NHL teams are playing now are just too fast for him.

I posted a few weeks back that both Muzzin and Amart suffer from the worst type of injury.. the mental type that can only be better from within and they both seem to better completely lost at the moment and maybe into the foreseeable future...

 

[Fishhead]

The Visnovsky trade was one of the best deals Dean ever made.

I would not be opposed at all to getting a good young forward and maybe a pick for Martinez. Even a good young forward would be enough.

Since I don't think this team will contend for at least a few years, I am not worried about getting better next season. I want to get a forward in his early 20's already playing in the NHL. The Kings need the cap space and hopefully along with it a little more skill up front.

It was a great deal, I would rather have a higher level forward than a decent forward + a D, that's all. I would definitely add a pick to Muzzin/Martinez if it meant getting a good young forward and a solid young D.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Trading Martinez instead of Muzzin will just become another post 2014 DL trade mistake we will be talking about next year. Muzzin will have a better return and I'm not confident he will bounce back next year, the types of mistakes hes making this year again and again inspire very little confidence. He just looks lost and seems that the style most NHL teams are playing now are just too fast for him.

Do you think it's more likely that Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez, and McNabb all became worse players to various degrees in the last year, or that the collective underperformance of 90% of the roster might be due to other factors?

I think even Muzzin will be more than fine with a change behind the bench.

 

[lumbergh]

I posted a few weeks back that both Muzzin and Amart suffer from the worst type of injury.. the mental type that can only be better from within and they both seem to better completely lost at the moment and maybe into the foreseeable future...

The WOWY numbers indicate that the two of them together make for an absolute disaster for this team, but for some reason Sutter kept putting them together. Amart has been quite good with McNabb and Gravel in limited minutes. Muzzin, on the other hand, has pretty much dragged everyone down with him.

If Lombardi can get a good winger for a defenseman, I would definitely prefer he trade Muzzin over Martinez. Muzzin likely has more perceived value and is younger.

 

[CowMix]

Do you think it's more likely that Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez, and McNabb all became worse players to various degrees in the last year, or that the collective underperformance of 90% of the roster might be due to other factors?

I think even Muzzin will be more than fine with a change behind the bench.

I think the coach/system is the problem for hurting many players offensive stats but I don't see why the coach/system would be the reason for the kind of mistakes we see on the defensive end. Maybe I'm biased since I'm been advocating Martinez or Muzzin ever since the idea of trading one of them for a forward started being discussed because I just think Martinez is a more versatile defenseman and less likely for his success to be a product of a system. Martinez may not carry his pairing but you put a solid defensive defenseman with Martinez and you will always have a solid pairing while Muzzin is a risk to drag the entire pairing down. If you trade Martinez and Muzzin doesn't recover next year, you are relying heavily on rookies to shoulder the dead weight and you are probably looking at a similar defense to what got smoked by the Sharks in the playoffs last year.

 

[triplcrown]

The core is not the problem, the coaching is.

yes.

 

[triplcrown]

Maybe we can build a fire, sing a couple of songs, huh?

Why don't we try that?

 

[KingsFan7824]

The Visnovsky trade was one of the best deals Dean ever made.

I would not be opposed at all to getting a good young forward and maybe a pick for Martinez. Even a good young forward would be enough.

Since I don't think this team will contend for at least a few years, I am not worried about getting better next season. I want to get a forward in his early 20's already playing in the NHL. The Kings need the cap space and hopefully along with it a little more skill up front.

Stoll wasn't in his early 20's when he got here. I doubt Martinez has good young forward + pick value. Maybe if Lombardi is giving the pick. Maybe you get a Stoll-ish forward for him by himself.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Girgensons would probably be a good fit for the 3rd line center position and the Sabres need a LH D.

 

[LAKings88]

I'm on board with making changes and getting some new voices.

My biggest issue is just the let downs since 15.

Couldn't get up for big games that year to get in the playoffs.

Last year they couldn't close out and fell apart after clinching so early.

This year they just seem to have been drained of passion.

Teams bring their A games late in the season. LA has not been able to match their intensity the last few years.

I hope it is as simple as a coaching change honestly. These guys are proven winners, they need to find that spark again.

 

[KINGS17]

Girgensons would probably be a good fit for the 3rd line center position and the Sabres need a LH D.

Not a bad idea. He will be 24 years old next season. I would prefer a player a couple of years younger, but I think a player like Girgensons is out there in a deal for Martinez.

Since I mentioned Florida as a possible trade partner, how about Bjugstad? He will be 25 years old, so doesn't quite fit my criteria, but something needs to be done to shore up the forwards in the future.

I have no idea what Dean's plans are for this off season, but it seems a realistic assessment of where this team is today is in order. Sutter is likely correct. This roster, as it stands today, is a middle of the pack team.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Couldn't get up for big games that year to get in the playoffs.

Last year they couldn't close out and fell apart after clinching so early.

This year they just seem to have been drained of passion.

Maybe the players knew, as much as Lombardi and Sutter, that this team wasn't a contender after the previous 2 seasons. Maybe they knew that even the GM lost confidence in them, since he didn't try to make the team better last summer. Rightfully so(and many people have been saying no more bad long deals or trading away future), as they've burned him the previous 2 seasons, at the cost of a couple 1st rounders.

It was up to the guys still here to make it a worthwhile season. Then Quick gets hurt in the first game, and an already mentally fragile team takes a huge hit. At the time, you're not getting a guy like Bishop, unless you offer a lot, so it was Budaj, or Pavelec, or some other 3rd string guy. Budaj and Zatkoff were free, so they got the chance. It was as good as any other reasonable option. Then they didn't win their first game in regulation until early November, Kopitar has a big new contract, the C, and the lowest goals and assists in any full season of his career, and the team has been fighting an uphill battle from basically day 1.

A team with plenty of question marks lost a major player in the first period of the season, and never recovered in any meaningful way. In the previous 2 years, maybe Lombardi tries to save the season with a trade(that is then probably questioned for years). He knew what this team has become though. He tried to give them a low cost boost at the deadline, because they had worked hard all year to be in the race to some degree, but even that didn't work.

I hope Lombardi gets another shot. I have no idea if it's the case, but I imagine his emotional attachment has decreased. He did actually trade someone that played in the playoffs from either Cup team. I think the trade of King is a significant shift in his mentality. He didn't have to trade him. He can't go back and right any of his wrongs directly, but he can get the ball rolling again.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

Not a bad idea. He will be 24 years old next season. I would prefer a player a couple of years younger, but I think a player like Girgensons is out there in a deal for Martinez.

Since I mentioned Florida as a possible trade partner, how about Bjugstad? He will be 25 years old, so doesn't quite fit my criteria, but something needs to be done to shore up the forwards in the future.

I have no idea what Dean's plans are for this off season, but it seems a realistic assessment of where this team is today is in order. Sutter is likely correct. This roster, as it stands today, is a middle of the pack team.

You've mentioned Bjugstad a couple times. Why on earth would you want THAT for 4 million dollars?

 

[KINGS17]

You've mentioned Bjugstad a couple times. Why on earth would you want THAT for 4 million dollars?

The potential is there with this kid. He is a straight across cap hit trade.

He may not be the best candidate. Just one of several. As I said in the previous post, Bjugstad isn't a complete fit for my own criteria.

I don't think we can pinpoint exactly what the market is for Martinez. I like the suggested deal with Buffalo as well.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

I like the idea of getting Baptiste out of Buffalo. Not a center, but a little younger and perhaps more upside.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Maybe we can build a fire, sing a couple of songs, huh?

Why don't we try that?

Exclusive rights. That's what it's all about.

 

[kings11]

Muzzin is still a top Dman and should have that value this offseason after the expansion draft. So the question is what's a good return for the Kings ????
I'd still do a
Muzzin+Clifford for Kane+1st
Muzzin+Dowd+Mensch+3rd for Hamonic+Strome
Muzzin+Dowd+Mersch+2nd for Gabriel Landeskog