Trading out the core for a rebuild?

[KingLB]

Nylander
Nielsen
1st round

and another 1st+2nd if he re-signs with us is a lot.

The only problem with him having 2 years after this is we can't talk extension right away, that could catastrophic for the franchise if he were to depart.

The trade offer is probably in the Pronger to the Flyers return rate right? Give or take? Not trying to "rip" anyone off on the boards, just enjoy the hockey talk and want to piece together what would represent real world value.

I don't want to get to into this, cause if the Kings do tear it down. DD is the last player you trade. And would not be traded in my mind.

Secondly, that proposal is way below what it needs to be. Marner is definitely included.

Marner+Reilly+1st.....and still I don't think it would happen.

Players at Doughty's level don't get traded.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Toronto fan visiting your boards specifically wondering what King's fans mindsets were on trading Doughty. I didn't want to make a thread in the trade section.

If you felt your window was closed and Doughty is up for grabs I imagine Nylander+Nielsen (our top defense prospect)+1st is on the table to start and potentially another 1st or 2nd if Doughty signs an extension (we'd need some reassurances he'd have an interest). I feel like in the above scenario this gets the conversation rolling. 3-4 assets for Los Angeles to start with.

Other assets are negotiable, pretty much the only names off the table are Matthews and Marner.

Thanks

There's zero chance the Kings even think of trading Doughty this summer or next but if they get the feeling from him that he isn't going to re-sign in the summer of 2019 then they'll probably start to think about moving him when he has 1 year left on his deal. Even then the price will be ridiculously for him. Honestly I'd ask for what you proposed now and more when he has only 1 year left on his deal, not 3.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Kopitar probably played/is playing through a broken wrist, he also won he Selke last year
Doughty won the Norris just last year
Quick is still on his game although his longevity is in question
Jeff Carter scored 30 this year.


yeah, trading away the core seems like a great idea guys

Let's assume that Carter can repeat this 30+ goal, ~70 point season (projecting out), their are a lot of questions. Can Martinez and to a lesser extent Muzzin be better? Like you, I have to assume Kopitar is injured and he can/will return to his 2015-16 form. Can Pearson build on this season? Can Toffoli bounce back from a disappointing year? And in the end, these things could all mean nothing if Quick can't play ~60 games.

That being said, some things have happened this season that changed the outlook going forward, most notably on the back end, the addition of Forbort and Gravel in largely full-time roles (played a combined 113 games) and lately the addition of Ladue, the whole thing has me wondering if they might feel comfortable with the current six going forward, provided they get through the expansion. (might take a backdoor deal to get them to not take whichever Defenseman not named McNabb they expose)

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Every GM in the league literally trades every player on the Kings before they trade Doughty. He's an elite player at a position that is incredibly difficult to fill.

Dean will trade Kopitar and Quick nine times over before he trades Doughty.

 

[KingsFan7824]

In the almost 6 years since the Richards trade, the Kings and Flyers currently have the same 20-29-20 regulation records, and the Kings have 73 total points, to the Flyers 72. That's with Simmonds and Schenn currently giving the Flyers 49 goals, including 30 PP goals, with both of them tied for the most PP goals in the league. While Richards is currently giving the Kings nothing whatsoever, and in fact costing them cap space for that privilege. The Flyers also have 1 more playoff game and win than the Kings in the last 3 years.

Goes to show that there are many variables involved in how a team does. The better future the Flyers were supposed to have, in part because they got two younger assets for an aging one, hasn't happened yet. There's no guarantee whichever way you go in building a team.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

One interesting rumor recently surfaced - and would make for an interesting off season, is this rumor about Voynov returning. ?

If that could even happen - the result would be that the right side would be: Doughty,
Voynov, Ladue. Now, by all indications, Ladue has shown he is pretty much ready for that #2 RD slot, right now. His ability, skating, offensive instincts are not that of a 3rd pairing. They certainly project him #2 RD. So...where would that leave Voynov?

Voynov is having a big year with St petersburg SKA and just ahead of Datsyuk in points.
see here: 11 goals, 26 assists, 37 points (which is a ton for a defenseman in Russia)
and Prokhorkin is on the team and he only has 14 points. Kovalchuk leads the team:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0050332017.html

So, if Voynov returned, I think one D gets traded. Ones that come to mind first, would be Muzzin or Martinez...UNTIL you consider the right side scenario. I do not think Ladue would be dealt - he is on the cusp of becoming a top young defenseman, with a high ceiling. Voynov - not sure they can even bring him back and if so, if he could/ would be dealt.

Which King would get the highest return in a deal? Doughty, without question.
Could instantly add 2 very good NHL players. I will not speculate names, as who really knows.

Just something to think about.

 

[HookKing]

All I can say is good luck getting the government to allow a criminal Russian back into the country. Not exactly the best timing.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Rags fan here, what exactly is the issue you guys see with Kopi? Is it the finishing? Seems like the chances are there when he's out there, these charts agree.

Without him on the ice, that slot area is ice cold for LA.


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[Raccoon Jesus]

Rags fan here, what exactly is the issue you guys see with Kopi? Is it the finishing? Seems like the chances are there when he's out there, these charts agree.

Without him on the ice, that slot area is ice cold for LA.

It's been a long season.

First, he was the most snakebitten player in the league, hitting literally a post a game, sometimes multiple. Then he got hurt, and was playing with one arm in a gigantic brace. After that, he showed signs of life for like 10 games, then his entire game just completely fell apart in a way we've never seen. So, tough to say exactly now.

 

[rajuabju]

In the almost 6 years since the Richards trade, the Kings and Flyers currently have the same 20-29-20 regulation records, and the Kings have 73 total points, to the Flyers 72. That's with Simmonds and Schenn currently giving the Flyers 49 goals, including 30 PP goals, with both of them tied for the most PP goals in the league. While Richards is currently giving the Kings nothing whatsoever, and in fact costing them cap space for that privilege. The Flyers also have 1 more playoff game and win than the Kings in the last 3 years.

Goes to show that there are many variables involved in how a team does. The better future the Flyers were supposed to have, in part because they got two younger assets for an aging one, hasn't happened yet. There's no guarantee whichever way you go in building a team.

Of course, Kings have 2 cups, Flyers 0. So that must count for something

Also you cant just say the trade happened 6 years ago, but then only count the last 3 yeas of playoffs success... well you can, but not in a fair way

 

[bmr]

How's Boston been since the coach was fired? Similar system to the one Sutter runs. There's definitely a shelf life for that type of hard grinding game.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Of course, Kings have 2 cups, Flyers 0. So that must count for something

Also you cant just say the trade happened 6 years ago, but then only count the last 3 yeas of playoffs success... well you can, but not in a fair way

I was just mostly concerned with the future part of the trade. Trading out the core for a rebuild doesn't necessarily mean the Kings will be better 5 years from now than they are today. The Flyers got a pretty good haul for Carter and Richards. For various reasons, for both teams, the Flyers aren't any better than the Kings 6 years later, despite the current huge production gap for the players involved in the Richards deal.

You don't get a roster that can win the Cup twice in three years all the time. Look at the franchises that have won the same ratio of Cups, or better, since the Canadiens dynasty in the late 70's. Without a little bit of luck in various forms, it's quite difficult to recycle a Cup winning roster into another one. Like when people say the Kings should have a #1 center waiting in the wings for when Kopitar gets old. Because somehow it's that easy? Does Chicago have their next guy after Toews? Pittsburgh after Crosby?

 

[theMajor]

Let's assume that Carter can repeat this 30+ goal, ~70 point season (projecting out), their are a lot of questions. Can Martinez and to a lesser extent Muzzin be better? Like you, I have to assume Kopitar is injured and he can/will return to his 2015-16 form. Can Pearson build on this season? Can Toffoli bounce back from a disappointing year? And in the end, these things could all mean nothing if Quick can't play ~60 games.

That being said, some things have happened this season that changed the outlook going forward, most notably on the back end, the addition of Forbort and Gravel in largely full-time roles (played a combined 113 games) and lately the addition of Ladue, the whole thing has me wondering if they might feel comfortable with the current six going forward, provided they get through the expansion. (might take a backdoor deal to get them to not take whichever Defenseman not named McNabb they expose)

Marty and Muzzin have shown in the past that they can play well and do it consistently. Im not sure what is happening this season, especially with Muzzin, but I have to believe they can and will bounce back. Pearson, provided he can stay healthy, will only get better with time and I can confidently say the same about Toffoli. we have a good core, and some good youngsters that are really starting to find their identity. all the Kings need is to plug a few holes at forward and to have the stars of the team play to their career average levels and we're back to contending. this season has been an anomaly in a number of different areas (injuries being the most notable one) so Im not too worried. after the Gabo/Quick/Kopi/Toffoli injuries I really didnt expect the Kings to do too much this season. I hope Dean can trim some of the fat at F this off season and either let some of the Reign kids earn their spot or compliment the bottom 6 with some FAs. kinda anxious to see what he does this summer

 

[Peter James Bond II]

Rags fan here, what exactly is the issue you guys see with Kopi? Is it the finishing? Seems like the chances are there when he's out there, these charts agree.

Without him on the ice, that slot area is ice cold for LA.


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As stated, he was / is injured...but he has been more and more not going to the net and doing what he used to do; going to the net with a defender on his back and getting a high percentage shot. I used to marvel at him, especially 2007-2012, he was a total beast. No more.
He lives on the half wall on powerplays and rarely gets a good shot off on the PP, or gets himself within 10 feet of the net. See his last 3 years: 6 ppg, 5 ppg, 4 ppg.
He used to get 10 to 14 ppg. His shooting percentage is 6.9%. I think Alec Martinez tops that, or usually does. It's pretty pathetic. In 2013-14, he had the same amount of PP goals you and I did; 0. (zero). Not even sure how that is possible. Some now call him 'Perimitar' and rightly so.

https://www.nhl.com/player/anze-kopitar-8471685

He also got married in 2013 and has a kid or maybe 2 now. That does not affect most players...but affects some. They seem to play down a level and with less grit and bite to their games. Not calling him out on that, but it could be a factor. Also, pressure of being captain now and having a longterm contract in the dollar amount of half of Slovenia's gross domestic product.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

How's Boston been since the coach was fired? Similar system to the one Sutter runs. There's definitely a shelf life for that type of hard grinding game.

Amen brother...surprised this board isn't looking more at the Boston revival ...this is exactly what we should be asking for in regards to the changes that need to be made.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

It's been a long season.

First, he was the most snakebitten player in the league, hitting literally a post a game, sometimes multiple. Then he got hurt, and was playing with one arm in a gigantic brace. After that, he showed signs of life for like 10 games, then his entire game just completely fell apart in a way we've never seen. So, tough to say exactly now.

Interesting. I'll be paying closer attention to him individually next time I catch a game, which I hope to see lots of as you push for the playoffs. Good luck in making it, the western conference will be ******** their pants collectively if the team does make it and I like that.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Amen brother...surprised this board isn't looking more at the Boston revival ...this is exactly what we should be asking for in regards to the changes that need to be made.

I just wasn't posting it because I'm sick of getting chewed out over stats, but some food for thought



Basically just follow that guy's whole feed today. The short of it is luck; the long of it is there may be more psychologically or an intangible boost that drives the spike in production after a shakeup like that (in addition to the softening of BOS's schedule)

And he says sort of what I did last year in different words--Mike Kelly is a smug turd because he has inside access to the NHLs SportLogiq stats and still finds a way to misuse/misrepresent things to create his biased writeups.

In other words, that "The Kings aren't going to the hard spots" stuff is bunk because they're still generating a crazy amount of chances--high danger and otherwise--compared to the rest of the league. But despite our skilled players (is anyone really going to pretend guys like Gaborik et. al. aren't skilled?) they're not doing anything with those chances. Hell, look at tonight--Gaborik jukes the Sabre out of his skates and just doesn't lift the puck. It's maddening.

To me, it's confidence/psychological, and new voices/refreshing faces behind the bench will jolt the team into a better spot next year.

 

[Stimpythecat]

I think the main issue was health. Losing Quick made the kings play a much more defensive style. So many guys are playing hurt. I think we will see just how many once the season is over. Kopi certainly. Probably toffoli, too.

I'm against trading Muzzin and Martinez. We'd be selling them when their value is at a low. I agreed with not trading them this year since that in all likelihood would mean vegas takes McNabb in the draft and that leaves the kings with Doughty, one of Muzzin/Martinez and 3 current rookies as our top 5 and a hole in the 6 spot.

A strength this season would instantly become a weakness again. We saw how that worked in 2015.

I think in the offseason, the priority is to move Gaborik. Either a trade or seeing what vegas would want if they agree to pick him in the draft. A buyout would hurt so I really don't want to do that. So we weigh the BO cost vs. the asset cost of trading him.

Voynov is a pipe dream. I don't want him back. Even if I did, Voynov is still under an entry ban. Applying for a waiver takes 6 months so he would already have had to do so months ago if he was to make camp in September. Plus he is under contract in the KHL. He would have to get out of his contract with his KHL team. We would hear about that well in advance.

 

[sinister6000]

The Kings could trade a defense men for a young low cost goal scorer if they could get Voynov back. They could trade him, Martinez, or Muzzin in a 1 for 1 deal.

 

[deeshamrock]

I just wasn't posting it because I'm sick of getting chewed out over stats, but some food for thought



Basically just follow that guy's whole feed today. The short of it is luck; the long of it is there may be more psychologically or an intangible boost that drives the spike in production after a shakeup like that (in addition to the softening of BOS's schedule)

And he says sort of what I did last year in different words--Mike Kelly is a smug turd because he has inside access to the NHLs SportLogiq stats and still finds a way to misuse/misrepresent things to create his biased writeups.

In other words, that "The Kings aren't going to the hard spots" stuff is bunk because they're still generating a crazy amount of chances--high danger and otherwise--compared to the rest of the league. But despite our skilled players (is anyone really going to pretend guys like Gaborik et. al. aren't skilled?) they're not doing anything with those chances. Hell, look at tonight--Gaborik jukes the Sabre out of his skates and just doesn't lift the puck. It's maddening.

To me, it's confidence/psychological, and new voices/refreshing faces behind the bench will jolt the team into a better spot next year.

This article goes into alot more detail, with the stats but says pretty much the same thing.

But it did point out that something as simple as putting Pastrnak on the first line permanently with Bergeron and Marchand has worked out well for all of them.



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/youll-...out-the-bruins-trending-topics-140716191.html

Meanwhile, under Cassidy, the Bruins are both generating and conceding a lot more chances than they used to. That, in and of itself, is probably good for them, even before you get into the whole thing about how many goals they’ve scored. If you’re generating more chances than you allow, but there are higher numbers of both across the board, you’re going to be in pretty good shape, even if you let the opponents chip away at that advantage a little. And certainly, you’re going to do less “living and dying by any one bounce.†That’s a big relief for a team that needed it.

If you've followed this game for any length of time, you've seen the effect when a coach loses the room. Players tend to be disinterested to the point of appearing lazy. That complacency has a negative effect. The team seems to be going thru the motions at times, almost as if looking forward to punching out when their shift ends.
But then a new coach comes in, a new voice, a different personality, a breath of fresh air. Like you are sitting in a room with stagnant air and a window is opened. And in a lot of cases, you see the positive effects right away. Most of the changes this year have resulted in that upswing.
Julien is a good coach, but 10 years is a long time.

And so it really all boils down to Cassidy doing one thing Julien clearly forgot to do in his final 55 games with the Bruins: Telling his skaters to score on more of their shots, and goalies to stop more too. That’s the best advice a coach can give.

 

[damacles1156]

Teams don't trade "low cost goal scorers".

There is a reason they are horded in this league. Just like Very steady Defenders.

You have to draft, and develop.

A deal like Jeff Carter, is probably not going to happen for the Kings, ever again.

How many 1st round picks got swapped at the dead-line in a absolute garbage draft ?

Draft, develop,draft,develop,draft,develop.

 

[CowMix]

A full rebuild is just unrealistic, who knows how long it would take to draft another core. Kopitar and Doughty may not be having great seasons but they are still legit #1 players in their respective positions. The Oilers have been rebuilding for almost 10 years now and they just got a #1 center. Sutter and/or DL will be fired before Kopitar or Doughty are traded.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Amen brother...surprised this board isn't looking more at the Boston revival ...this is exactly what we should be asking for in regards to the changes that need to be made.

It has been said that they aren't gonna pay two coaches, so unless he decides to retire, might have to ride it out for two more years.

 

[CowMix]

It has been said that they aren't gonna pay two coaches, so unless he decides to retire, might have to ride it out for two more years.

They may sing a different tune after losing out on playoff money

 

[KINGS17]

Every GM in the league literally trades every player on the Kings before they trade Doughty. He's an elite player at a position that is incredibly difficult to fill.

Dean will trade Kopitar and Quick nine times over before he trades Doughty.

I agree, Doughty is the most talented player the Kings have on the roster.

I have my doubts about Doughty deciding to stick around when his deal expires. Doughty is very competitive and wants to win.

What if he won't re-sign when he becomes eligible for an extension? The Kings can't afford to lose him for nothing.