Speculation: Trade Deadline

[Striiker]

I love how often people read my posts and then try to make the massive leap from "offense is most important" to "defense doesn't matter at all", which is something I've never once said or even vaguely suggested.

I don't know if it's that they're not paying attention to what I actually said or if they're just trying to dishonestly twist my words, but either way it's a bad start if you're trying to make an argument.

 

[Pantokrator]

NHL Rumors - ProHockeyRumors.com

Fabbro for Simmonds might be a good fit for both teams.

Forgive my ignorance, but what type of player is Fabbro supposed to be?

 

[deadhead]

Same concept for Ghost, which was my original point. I'm not trading a proven top-tier offensive defensemen for a more expensive, worse offensive, bigger, defensively-minded player.

He has had one top season in four years, that's far from "proven."
He was an exciting, but mistake prone rookie, and an injured disaster his second season.
Even in his best year, Ghost was only 18th in the league in pp/60, 5x5.
Dumba for example, outscored him at 1.18 that year.
And he's been MIA twice in the playoffs.

Ghost was a major factor on the PP, but went totally south this year, "proven" players don't collapse like that.

Losing Ghost would not cripple the offense, Provorov, Sanheim and Myers give you 3 puck moving defensemen, Gudas is a great point shot, Morin has a good point shot, and Hagg is outscoring Ghost this year by a substantial margin. They'll make do. A RHD with offensive skills would balance out this group.

I'm not recommending giving him away, but the idea that Ghost is some sort of elite offensive defenseman is nonsense, he's not EK or Keith. He's a solid top 4 D-man who probably hit his ceiling last season.

 

[TheKingPin]

Forgive my ignorance, but what type of player is Fabbro supposed to be?

I had a similar interest as everyone seems high on him. I guess a talented two way collegiate dman that looks pretty good. Plus Nashville having limited openings on D and cap enough to easily sign simmer to an extension. I would think they are for sure going to get Ferland or Simmonds. Obviously Simmonds is more expensive.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Skills/smarts/speed > size

It can help but it’s the least important of the 4 S’s.

I'm more flexible than you on this. I value skill, smarts, and speed primarily as well, but I wouldn't call size the least important. Size for its own sake is...meh. That's how you can get into Luke Schenn territory. I see size as a modifier on the other things. If you have speed, if you're smart, and you have skill, and you have size, all those other skills are amplified. Being big doesn't hurt and makes many tasks easier.


What's interesting about Ghost is how he gets around his size. Or how he did before this off year. He gets the power of a much larger player out of a smaller frame and stick because his skating gives him so much leverage, for instance, and all last year he was willing to get his center of gravity lower, to get inside of guys and pin them at their midsection and legs a la Timonen.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He has had one top season in four years, that's far from "proven."
He was an exciting, but mistake prone rookie, and an injured disaster his second season.
Even in his best year, Ghost was only 18th in the league in pp/60, 5x5.
Dumba for example, outscored him at 1.18 that year.
And he's been MIA twice in the playoffs.

Ghost was a major factor on the PP, but went totally south this year, "proven" players don't collapse like that.

Losing Ghost would not cripple the offense, Provorov, Sanheim and Myers give you 3 puck moving defensemen, Gudas is a great point shot, Morin has a good point shot, and Hagg is outscoring Ghost this year by a substantial margin. They'll make do. A RHD with offensive skills would balance out this group.

I'm not recommending giving him away, but the idea that Ghost is some sort of elite offensive defenseman is nonsense, he's not EK or Keith. He's a solid top 4 D-man who probably hit his ceiling last season.

Ghost has enough sample size to be considered proven, and to consider that this year is due to other factors.

 

[Tripod]

I was just about to say, isn't Zadorov just a slightly better Morin?

Zadorov is a guy that the Avs NEED to play on their top pairing. The Flyers are in a situation where Morin can be our 3rd pairing Dman.

Zads and Morin bring an element that our D does lack. But we have no reason to go for Zads since we already have Morin. You don't need 2 of those guys.

It's all about having the right mix. I don't agree with those who say Ghost should be moved because he lacks size against bigger players. I also don't agree with those who say defensive Dmen have no place in todays game. I think a good D core will have a mix of everything. And that is why proper pairing DO matter. Having 1 guy who's strengths offset another's weakness means that the pairing can play to their strengths by playing smart.

Example...Morin and Ghost. To me, that is a pairing that would be a great fit. Ghost's lack of size, is offset by Morin. Morin's lack of footspeed in close, if offset by Ghost. People say how "Ghost can't handle the big guys in front of the net". Well that is not an issue for Morin. So if they play it smart, Morin and his reach takes control of that crease area and punishes guys while Ghost can be the guy to play smart positionally to keep the guy to the outside and try for turnovers and possibly lead to quick rushes the other way.

Provy Myers
Sanheim Gudas
Morin Ghost
Hagg

That would be my 7 if we don't add/trade anyone. If Provy can drag around AMac and Hagg, he can drag around Myers thru his rookie year. I expect Provy to bounce back next year...Ghost too. It's foolish to think that none of these kids will ever have bad years. Everyone does. Trading Ghost is dumb unless you get a 40+ point Dman who is a rock defensively and signed long term for 4/5 years. Trading him for picks or a lesser Dman is short sighted. Christ, we are still icing AMac and Hagg every night. Keep the top guys, upgrade the lower. Common sense.

 

[Oskar Man]

I'd like to see Chuck trade for Kaprizov's rights. Provy and Misha are familiar faces to him within the organization and could probably entice him to come over.

 

[Striiker]

I'm more flexible than you on this. I value skill, smarts, and speed primarily as well, but I wouldn't call size the least important. Size for its own sake is...meh. That's how you can get into Luke Schenn territory. I see size as a modifier on the other things. If you have speed, if you're smart, and you have skill, and you have size, all those other skills are amplified. Being big doesn't hurt and makes many tasks easier.


What's interesting about Ghost is how he gets around his size. Or how he did before this off year. He gets the power of a much larger player out of a smaller frame and stick because his skating gives him so much leverage, for instance, and all last year he was willing to get his center of gravity lower, to get inside of guys and pin them at their midsection and legs a la Timonen.

Of course I'd like a player who has everything, but if you're creating a player from scratch, who is above average in 3 of the 4 S's, wouldn't size be the one left off? I value the other 3 so so so much more. If a player has all 4 then great! But sacrificing even one of the others, let alone more than one, to add more size would be such a horrible mistake in todays NHL.

Now, that doesn't mean that a player with size, smarts, and skill, but no speed, is automatically a bad player. But the smarts and skill have to be so much higher to make up for the lack of speed. More so than they would be to make up for a lack of size. Couturier is a good example. His speed isn't above average, but it's his skill and elite smarts that make him such a great player, far more than his size.

As for Ghost, yeah, his size isn't even nearly as much of an issue as his hate squad likes to pretend. They try to make it sound like the guy is a horrible defensive liability when that's so far from the truth. He's like Giroux in that he can make up for his size on the boards with smarts, quickness, and great stick-work. He knows how to compensate and he's gotten better as he's gained experience in the NHL.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Of course I'd like a player who has everything, but if you're creating a player from scratch, who is above average in 3 of the 4 S's, wouldn't size be the one left off? I value the other 3 so so so much more. If a player has all 4 then great! But sacrificing even one of the others, let alone more than one, to add more size would be such a horrible mistake in todays NHL.

Now, that doesn't mean that a player with size, smarts, and skill, but no speed, is automatically a bad player. But the smarts and skill have to be so much higher to make up for the lack of speed. More so than they would be to make up for a lack of size.

As for Ghost, yeah, his size isn't even nearly as much of an issue as his hate squad likes to pretend. They try to make it sound like the guy is a horrible defensive liability when that's so far from the truth. He's like Giroux in that he can make up for his size on the boards with smarts, quickness, and great stick-work. He knows how to compensate and he's gotten better as he's gained experience in the NHL.

If I'm building a dman from scratch then he is Bobby Orr but a little taller than Chara.


The ultimate example of "size isn't as important as the rest" is obviously Gretzky. Everyone thought he would get murdered. Instead he did all of the murdering.

What's off with Ghost is a number of things. He isn't playing above his size this year like he has before. Combine that with observations of the physical aspect of his game and I wonder if he is injured. And, also missing, is he isn't using his vision to pick off passes like he used to; not sure how to fix that, but i have trouble believing he's suddenly completely lost that ability. Those are the two main ways he made his lack of size irrelevant, and it's missing for whatever reason.

If he's still ailing, that would do it. It took Giroux a long time to fully recover. Might take Ghost until next year, too. It could be that he isn't able to pick off passes like he used to because he can't routinely change direction fast enough to cut off open lanes like he has before.

I'm not going to worry about Ghost until sometime next year. He has done more than enough to earn the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Striiker]

If I'm building a dman from scratch then he is Bobby Orr but a little taller than Chara

When using comparisons using old players, can we keep in mind that I'm 12 years old?

 

[Beef Invictus]

When using comparisons using old players, can we keep in mind that I'm 12 years old?

In 12 year old parlance, Bobby Orr is the Mewtwo of dmen.



But for real, if you've never seen footage of the guy playing, find some. He could move at speeds that would be fast in the modern game and he was doing it in garbage skates. Like if McDavid had his current offensive skill but also played at defense at an undisputed Norris level.

 

[Striiker]

In 12 year old parlance, Bobby Orr is the Mewtwo of dmen.



But for real, if you've never seen footage of the guy playing, find some. He could move at speeds that would be fast in the modern game and he was doing it in garbage skates. Like if McDavid had his current offensive skill but also played at defense at an undisputed Norris level.

I know the name and stats, but I've just never seen him play.

I'm looking up videos now but it basically sounds like you're describing what Hakstol thinks MacDonald is. Accurate?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I know the name and stats, but I've just never seen him play.

I'm looking up videos now but it basically sounds like you're describing what Hakstol thinks MacDonald is. Accurate?

See if you can find full game videos, the average highlight doesn't show his defense and how he relentlessly tilted the ice in the opposite direction.

 

[Striiker]

See if you can find full game videos, the average highlight doesn't show his defense and how he relentlessly tilted the ice in the opposite direction.

I'll see if I can find that.

But, based on what I'm watching, if Bobby Orr was here today there's some specific posters on here who would hate him and call him a selfish player

There's certain highlights that stylistically look a lot like stuff Ghost does.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

In 12 year old parlance, Bobby Orr is the Mewtwo of dmen.



But for real, if you've never seen footage of the guy playing, find some. He could move at speeds that would be fast in the modern game and he was doing it in garbage skates. Like if McDavid had his current offensive skill but also played at defense at an undisputed Norris level.

Who the f*** is mewtwo...?

But ghost might feel the need to simplify his game if he is injured or still recovering. Not even a lack of awareness but the knowledge that he can’t afford to make those neutral zone gambles, loose and cannot catch up from there.

 

[Dooblus Dooizfour]

Ghost is a very good hockey player who is having an off year. I don’t want to trade him because of what I’m seeing this season. The whole team sucks! I’ll give him a pass for this season.

I would also not trade Ghost for a big slow dumb stumblebum, but if I can get a youngish right handed defenseman who is equally good it has to be considered.

This defenseman doesn’t have to be the offensive dynamo Ghost is but he needs to be offensively capable. I have always felt Morin is the perfect partner for Ghost but with that said, I’ll take a right handed defenseman who can play on the top pair

 

[Striiker]

Ghost is a very good hockey player who is having an off year. I don’t want to trade him because of what I’m seeing this season. The whole team sucks! I’ll give him a pass for this season.

I would also not trade Ghost for a big slow dumb stumblebum, but if I can get a youngish right handed defenseman who is equally good it has to be considered.

This defenseman doesn’t have to be the offensive dynamo Ghost is but he needs to be offensively capable. I have always felt Morin is the perfect partner for Ghost but with that said, I’ll take a right handed defenseman who can play on the top pair

Downgrading offensive ability to switch up handedness makes no sense.

Ghost is the guy who should be playing the right side on the top pair, so the solution is to just play him there.

 

[deadhead]

They try to make it sound like the guy is a horrible defensive liability when that's so far from the truth. He's like Giroux in that he can make up for his size on the boards with smarts, quickness, and great stick-work. He knows how to compensate and he's gotten better as he's gained experience in the NHL.

Who's they?
And no, Ghost is not Giroux. Not in the same class as a player.

Ghost has gotten better on defense and is not a liability, but he's never going to be a shutdown defenseman either, and yes, they have real value. He's a competent defender with limitations dictated by his size, and should be paired with a physical D-man, he looked solid this year paired with Gudas.

Problem with Morin - Ghost is the two LHD issue, while Ghost is better on the right side than most LHD, it's still preferable to have a RHD if you can find a good one.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'll see if I can find that.

But, based on what I'm watching, if Bobby Orr was here today there's some specific posters on here who would hate him and call him a selfish player

There's certain highlights that stylistically look a lot like stuff Ghost does.

I mean, Orr basically invented the Ghost/Coffey/Burns/Karlsson/Hower type of dman

I don't know if you watched Ghost's championship game at Union, but there are NHL games in the vault where Orr looks like Ghost in that game. Except against NHL players, not college kids.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Who's they?
And no, Ghost is not Giroux. Not in the same class as a player.

Ghost has gotten better on defense and is not a liability, but he's never going to be a shutdown defenseman either, and yes, they have real value. He's a competent defender with limitations dictated by his size, and should be paired with a physical D-man, he looked solid this year paired with Gudas.

Problem with Morin - Ghost is the two LHD issue, while Ghost is better on the right side than most LHD, it's still preferable to have a RHD if you can find a good one.

The entire league is hunting for them. They're white whales. Ghost on the right side with Morin is perfectly fine. Ghost on the right side in the past has been far, far better than numerous RHD on the right side.

 

[Striiker]

I mean, Orr basically invented the Ghost/Coffey/Burns/Karlsson/Hower type of dman

I don't know if you watched Ghost's championship game at Union, but there are NHL games in the vault where Orr looks like Ghost in that game. Except against NHL players, not college kids.

Yeah, I can definitely see that.

And actually the goal from that champ game is EXACTLY what was thinking about when I said that.

But he also does similar skating/weaving stuff in the NHL too.

At 1:10

 

[Striiker]

Ghost was one of the best defensemen in the entire league last year, while playing RD...

There's zero reason to find a RD to replace him after what he's proven to be capable of.

 

[deadhead]

Last year for half the season but not this year.
A half season does not make a career.

What I don't get is the fluffing of Ghost, he's a good top four offensive defenseman, but only someone who doesn't watch hockey would think he's "special," unless you think any defenseman who has one good season scoring is special. Physically, he's not the same player he was in college and as a rookie, he's lost some speed and burst after his surgery and two years later, it ain't comin' back.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

The entire league is hunting for them. They're white whales. Ghost on the right side with Morin is perfectly fine. Ghost on the right side in the past has been far, far better than numerous RHD on the right side.

Yeah rhds are at ridiculous premium. Giradi getting 3 million dollar contract being prime example.