GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

I would deal Ritchie for a cheaper alternative.
Solves the cap issues and lets you carry the 7 defenders when Mikheyev is back.

Having Ritchie make 2.5 M on the 4th line is ridiculous.

If Crouse is available he could fill that role. He actually uses his size to crush guys.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Note, I made an error... he's actually had 73 points in one season, didn't add up Vegas and Ottawa..

That being said, if you are PPG, and have only played over 60 something games, once in the last four years due to injury, and are out with injury now, it's going to impact your production. I can be true that he's a PPG player, and also typically a guy you get 60ish points from. And Matthews was a guy who had only achieved 69 points before his contract.. sure there is more potential, as there is with Stone, but until you achieve something, you aren't that guy. It's like saying... I'm a millionaire... do you have a million bucks, well no, but I'm on pace to...

Some of it was due to covid not injury I would imagine but I understand what you are saying. I just feel like on a normal year you can probably expect more than 60 points from Stone and if he is injured you can get up to 9.5 million dollars in cap relief. Whatever player replaces his spot or is bumped up the lineup will see increased production that would need to be considered

 

[Nineteen67]

Some of it was due to covid not injury I would imagine but I understand what you are saying. I just feel like on a normal year you can probably expect more than 60 points from Stone and if he is injured you can get up to 9.5 million dollars in cap relief. Whatever player replaces his spot or is bumped up the lineup will see increased production that would need to be considered

Vegas doesn’t have any forwards other than Stone and Pacioretty that score enough so they get checked hard, and they didn’t have a #1 C playing with them.

But still his 9.5 for the next 5 yrs is a burden.

 

[kb]

Doubt they get a 2nd tbh

For an RFA D on a short cheap contract? Nope.

What do old #6/7D with bigger tickets cost at the deadline?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

What 6/7 dman is garnering a 2nd round pick? Leafs would be jumping for joy if they could move Holl for a 2nd.

We'll see on Dermott, but I'd be surprised if he could get a 2nd.

You have to see it from the Leafs standpoint. Leafs paid a 5th for Hutton last year, and Hutton is nowhere near as good as Dermott/Holl and was a rental.

Why are the Leafs moving a guy who is more than good enough to play in our top 6 (which is better than at least half the teams in the league), and have even proven they are capable of playing in our top 4, on a reasonable cap hit for a price which is only slightly better return than we would have to pay for a mediocre #7/8 rental?

I would much rather have Dermott/Holl + 5th than Hutton + 2nd. Could care less about accruing cap space... I would much rather have quality defensive depth. We suffer an injury, and it will happen at some point, and suddenly the Leafs are turning to Biega/Dahlstrom (solid but not amazing), Menell (has sucked with the Marlies thus far), Kivihalme/Hollowell (who are barely good enough for the AHL level) or Duszak/Kral/Rubins (who have zero NHL experience). I am fine with some of those guys if we suffer two injuries, but not 1.

Short of the Leafs getting a very worthwhile futures return, or a guy who can help our team more than a Dermott or Holl can right now, there is little to no incentive for the Leafs to move either right now... And even then they need to immediately make another trade for another #7 if they can't get one in the Holl/Dermott trade.

When Mikheyev comes back and the Leafs need cap space, they can do something with their forwards to make their cap work. Maybe Engvall gets moved.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If Crouse is available he could fill that role. He actually uses his size to crush guys.

Lawson Crouse is seriously just a worse version of Ritchie... He costs 1 mill less on the cap I guess, but he is really the exact same kind of player with less success.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Vegas doesn’t have any forwards other than Stone and Pacioretty that score enough so they get checked hard, and they didn’t have a #1 C playing with them.

But still his 9.5 for the next 5 yrs is a burden.

Fair enough. Probably a good reason to add some additional high end guys like Eichel then

 

[LeafParade]

Lawson Crouse is seriously just a worse version of Ritchie... He costs 1 mill less on the cap I guess, but he is really the exact same kind of player with less success.

Swapping Ritchie for Crouse lets the Leafs carry a 22 man roster with Mikheyev.
I would move Ritchie just to sort out the cap issues alone.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Lawson Crouse is seriously just a worse version of Ritchie... He costs 1 mill less on the cap I guess, but he is really the exact same kind of player with less success.

The 1 million is all that really matters if Ritchie remains on the 4th line though

 

[LeafParade]

The 1 million is all that really matters if Ritchie remains on the 4th line though

Plus Ritchie has another year at 2.5 M. The Leafs will have to move him at some point simpley because of the cap.

 

[stickty111]

Mirtle in his article confirms Leafs have looked at trading a D. He says it's obviously not Rielly, and it's not Liljegren or Sandin. Muzzin and Brodie are staying. That leaves Dermott or Holl.
One of the reasons they want to do it is because of how well Liljegren and Sandin have played, Leafs believe they have 7 NHL calibre d men. With full health, someone will have to sit who shouldn't for too long. He says Leafs are being proactive here as someone could get unhappy for sitting. He says it's fair that Dermott or Holl would rather be traded then be sitting.
In terms of Sandin and Liljegren, they haven't received as much opportunity as they would because of the pandemic and stuff, they probably don't want too wait too long either.

Another reason for trading one of Holl or Dermott is their cap hits. Leafs want more flexibility and thats kind of preventing it. Having a #7 make what they make isn't ideal.
With Rielly's raise coming next year, and if Liljegren and Sandin play as much as it indicates, they could ask for more then their QO's are.
Leafs would get more for Holl or Dermott now then in the summer. He says Holl is more highly valued around the league then Dermott, but Leafs asking price isn't very high on either player.

Semyanov comes into play here too. They might want to get him some NHL games especially how well he has played with the Marlies.
Leafs believe guys like Rubins are ready to be depth options.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I think before you dump Ritchie, I think you try him in the top 6 with Tavares and Marner. We gave him 5 and a half games in a top 6, and for that entire time, he was a complimentary player who had nobody to compliment. I can guarantee that we did not pay him 2.5 mill per year to give up on him after effectively 5 games.

Mikheyev is going to be out for at least another month. We don't need to do anything until then. Ritchie should be given plenty of opportunities, and that is assuming we don't have any other injuries in that time.

 

[justashadowof]

Would it be possible to dump Ritchie, you think? I'd consider it if possible. If you look at his contract, it's not trade friendly as he makes $3.3M next season. That's got to scare off several organizations.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Mirtle in his article confirms Leafs have looked at trading a D. He says it's obviously not Rielly, and it's not Liljegren or Sandin. Muzzin and Brodie are staying. That leaves Dermott or Holl.
One of the reasons they want to do it is because of how well Liljegren and Sandin have played, Leafs believe they have 7 NHL calibre d men. With full health, someone will have to sit who shouldn't for too long. He says Leafs are being proactive here as someone could get unhappy for sitting. He says it's fair that Dermott or Holl would rather be traded then be sitting.
In terms of Sandin and Liljegren, they haven't received as much opportunity as they would because of the pandemic and stuff, they probably don't want too wait too long either.

Another reason for trading one of Holl or Dermott is their cap hits. Leafs want more flexibility and thats kind of preventing it. Having a #7 make what they make isn't ideal.
With Rielly's raise coming next year, and if Liljegren and Sandin play as much as it indicates, they could ask for more then their QO's are.
Leafs would get more for Holl or Dermott now then in the summer. He says Holl is more highly valued around the league then Dermott, but Leafs asking price isn't very high on either player.

Semyanov comes into play here too. They might want to get him some NHL games especially how well he has played with the Marlies.
Leafs believe guys like Rubins are ready to be depth options.

What does he think the price is, or he is being purposely vague? Is "not very high" mean they aren't asking for a 1st round pick?

The Leafs just paid Hallander to protect Dermott and Kerfoot (EDIT: Not Holl)... And even if they wanted to give Holl an opportunity elsewhere, they are going to ask for at least that much in return. And with the prices that similar RHD were going for in UFA just a few months ago, Holl should be going for a premium even with his struggle to start the season.

I really like Liljegren, but a lot of these "rumours" seem to suggest that the Leafs have changed their minds after a very short period of time. I thought Liljegren should have been given a top 6 job right from the start, but the Leafs did not think so themselves... Now they suddenly think they can move Holl after one rough 7 game stretch and one good 3 game stretch from Liljegren? After they were willing to protect him over guys like Kerfoot, McCann, and Dermott because it would have been tough for find a quality RD to replace him and Liljegren was obviously not a clear guarantee in their minds?

If this was February and things were the same as they are now, it would be different, but the Leafs are 10 games into their season right now... Seems a little bit soon to be completely changing their minds about guys like Holl and Ritchie (especially; although no mention about moving Ritchie right now) and even guys like Dermott.

 

[SprDaVE]

Mirtle in his article confirms Leafs have looked at trading a D. He says it's obviously not Rielly, and it's not Liljegren or Sandin. Muzzin and Brodie are staying. That leaves Dermott or Holl.
One of the reasons they want to do it is because of how well Liljegren and Sandin have played, Leafs believe they have 7 NHL calibre d men. With full health, someone will have to sit who shouldn't for too long. He says Leafs are being proactive here as someone could get unhappy for sitting. He says it's fair that Dermott or Holl would rather be traded then be sitting.
In terms of Sandin and Liljegren, they haven't received as much opportunity as they would because of the pandemic and stuff, they probably don't want too wait too long either.

Another reason for trading one of Holl or Dermott is their cap hits. Leafs want more flexibility and thats kind of preventing it. Having a #7 make what they make isn't ideal.
With Rielly's raise coming next year, and if Liljegren and Sandin play as much as it indicates, they could ask for more then their QO's are.
Leafs would get more for Holl or Dermott now then in the summer. He says Holl is more highly valued around the league then Dermott, but Leafs asking price isn't very high on either player.

Semyanov comes into play here too. They might want to get him some NHL games especially how well he has played with the Marlies.
Leafs believe guys like Rubins are ready to be depth options.

Sounds about right. I don't really agree with it but I understand it.

I assume Menell is another guy they wouldn't mind getting some games this season to see what they have going into next season.

 

[Fogelhund]

If this was February and things were the same as they are now, it would be different, but the Leafs are 10 games into their season right now... Seems a little bit soon to be completely changing their minds about guys like Holl and Ritchie (especially; although no mention about moving Ritchie right now) and even guys like Dermott.

While it's 10 games in, the Leafs Brass has had years to see Liljegren and Sandin. To me, it looks as though they've said, these guys are our future, Holl (probably) the insurance. If Liljegren and Sandin show that they can play at the NHL level, it gives us the flexibility to make a change in moving Holl. Holl is the bigger cap hit, and likely the better return, so I see it as more probable he moves right now... though it could be Dermott. Dermott being moved doesn't give us the same cap flexibility.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

While it's 10 games in, the Leafs Brass has had years to see Liljegren and Sandin. To me, it looks as though they've said, these guys are our future, Holl (probably) the insurance. If Liljegren and Sandin show that they can play at the NHL level, it gives us the flexibility to make a change in moving Holl. Holl is the bigger cap hit, and likely the better return, so I see it as more probable he moves right now... though it could be Dermott. Dermott being moved doesn't give us the same cap flexibility.

So why were they not the future at the beginning of the year, 10 games ago? Liljegren has played in 4 games so far this year. Was 4 games all Liljegren needed to go from not good enough for the top 6 and needing Holl as insurance to pushing the Leafs to trade Holl?

I like Liljegren, but I have serious concerns if the Leafs are making that kind of drastic decision based on such a small sample size. If this was February and the Leafs have played 40+ games and Liljegren has still looked really good, then I can understand.

 

[Fogelhund]

So why were they not the future at the beginning of the year, 10 games ago? Liljegren has played in 4 games so far this year. Was 4 games all Liljegren needed to go from not good enough for the top 6 and needing Holl as insurance to pushing the Leafs to trade Holl?

I like Liljegren, but I have serious concerns if the Leafs are making that kind of drastic decision based on such a small sample size. If this was February and the Leafs have played 40+ games and Liljegren has still looked really good, then I can understand.

Between Holl's play regressing, Lily showing he can play, and a cap squeeze forcing their hand... yes.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Lawson Crouse is seriously just a worse version of Ritchie... He costs 1 mill less on the cap I guess, but he is really the exact same kind of player with less success.

That was my point though. If he wanted a similar player for less money, there it is.

I'd rather use the space to go after guys like Hertl/Rakell/Forsberg at the deadline, or see if you can somehow pry DeBrincat out of Chicago.

 

[dubplatepressure]

I like Liljegren, but I have serious concerns if the Leafs are making that kind of drastic decision based on such a small sample size. If this was February and the Leafs have played 40+ games and Liljegren has still looked really good, then I can understand.

Only one way to find out - and I'd much rather invest in Lilly than in Holl or Dermott right now.

 

[LeafChief]

I'm as big of a Liljegren guy as they come but this sample size seems premature to be dealing either of Holl or Dermott without another capable defenceman coming back.

 

[SprDaVE]

I'm as big of a Liljegren guy as they come but this sample size seems premature to be dealing either of Holl or Dermott without another capable defenceman coming back.

Sounds like the Leafs have a lot of faith in their depth guys like Rubins, Menell, Kral, Hollowell, Biega, etc etc

 

[SeaOfBlue]

That was my point though. If he wanted a similar player for less money, there it is.

I'd rather use the space to go after guys like Hertl/Rakell/Forsberg at the deadline, or see if you can somehow pry DeBrincat out of Chicago.

Right, but are you going to pay the cost to acquire Crouse, which is likely worth a lot more than that 1 mill in cap savings? Arizona doesn't really have an incentive to move him for less than an overpayment. He is still somewhat young and their team is not going anywhere right now. They can afford to have patience.

Also keep in mind that Crouse has shown very little that proves that he is more than a 4th liner, and not even a great one at that. He has had a few glimpses as a solid 3rd liner throughout his career, but it is far and few between. Ritchie has had a lot more of those glimpses.

As for going after those guys, those are all rentals and they are going to be expensive rentals. Last year was bad enough; the Leafs should not be in the expensive rental market even if they have the cap space.

 

[4thline]

Sounds like the Leafs have a lot of faith in their depth guys like Rubins, Menell, Kral, Hollowell, Biega, etc etc

I forgot about Biega, he does have a track record as a 6-7 over the last few seasons, albeit on bad teams

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Between Holl's play regressing, Lily showing he can play, and a cap squeeze forcing their hand... yes.

The Leafs can solve their cap squeeze, which is not even an issue for at least another month, without having to sacrifice defensive depth. Holl's regression is not severe enough to move him without getting a very worthwhile return, nor are all of those factors to suddenly put Liljegren over Holl after such a small sample size.

My guess is the Leafs don't even entertain an offer that doesn't exceed a 2nd round pick in value, and the Leafs will need to receive a quality #7, either directly or indirectly, as well.

Maybe that is Nick Ritchie for Will Butcher, if the Leafs are suddenly in the market of making decisions based on small sample sizes. Or more likely, the Leafs move Engvall, which opens up room for Mikheyev and opens up the cap space. Engvall has looked good enough where he should get a legit return, but I don't know if the Leafs really see a long term future for him here, especially with the number of other guys they have coming up behind him.