Toronto Maple Leafs: Who Would Replace Kyle Dubas?

[Gary Nylund]

Lou Fans? He's a decorated/successful NHL executive. No one has his name on the backs of their official Leafs jersey. He was also managing Toronto for a very short period (3 years). We sadly never got to see what this team might have been had he been given more time.

Long long long before you were born Lou was winning cups in NJ. He was making bold decisions (too many to list), and creating a legendary career. To come along and say that a few years with the NYI is his body of work is just spiteful/arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't love Wayne Gretzky, but I would never attempt to chop down his legendary career and say that his time as head coach of Arizona is his body of work.

Not his entire body of work, but if you're sad about him not staying on here as the GM, it's a good place to start. What he did with NYI would obviously look amazing had they won the cup and I'll give him credit for coming somewhat close but at the same time, he's responsible for where the franchise is now.

 

[DarkKnight]

Really informative piece that shows every move Lou made here. Obviously, the body of work shows some real stinkers, actually same with our current guy now that he has a long record, but overall it isn’t the tire fire that some argue here now, he made a lot of shrewd moves. And to be clear, I was in favour of Dubas taking over, I just wanted one more year to let Lou do the contracts, felt a rookie GM that was a big ask. Check this out without the jaundiced eyes for a change.

The Complete Reign of Lou Lamoriello

Let’s look at what Lou Lamoriello has done in his time as Leafs GM, and evaluate it.

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

 

[Gary Nylund]

Really informative piece that shows every move Lou made here. Obviously, the body of work shows some real stinkers, actually same with our current guy now that he has a long record, but overall it isn’t the tire fire that some argue here now, he made a lot of shrewd moves. And to be clear, I was in favour of Dubas taking over, I just wanted one more year to let Lou do the contracts, felt a rookie GM that was a big ask. Check this out without the jaundiced eyes for a change.

The Complete Reign of Lou Lamoriello

Let’s look at what Lou Lamoriello has done in his time as Leafs GM, and evaluate it.

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

I think the people saying tire fire are referring to where the NYI franchise is today. I think Lou mostly did a good job with us, same goes for Dubas. Lou's work with NYI though, now that's a different story.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I'm confused, is there a reason you quoted me here? I had nothing to do with the exchange you're talking ab

Your memory is flawed. Your original statement is posted above, along with my response to you if you'd care to read it again. If you're going to be condescending ...

Do be clear, I find that to be a ridiculous assertion, and equally ridiculous if for you to interpret that as saying "keep him because it could be worse"

This was your reply. The part in quotations was someone name Tuttle, not me. You used the quotation directly in your response and implied it was me who said it.

But continue.....

 

[ACC1224]

Really informative piece that shows every move Lou made here. Obviously, the body of work shows some real stinkers, actually same with our current guy now that he has a long record, but overall it isn’t the tire fire that some argue here now, he made a lot of shrewd moves. And to be clear, I was in favour of Dubas taking over, I just wanted one more year to let Lou do the contracts, felt a rookie GM that was a big ask. Check this out without the jaundiced eyes for a change.

The Complete Reign of Lou Lamoriello

Let’s look at what Lou Lamoriello has done in his time as Leafs GM, and evaluate it.

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

Good luck with that.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Your memory is flawed. Your original statement is posted above, along with my response to you if you'd care to read it again. If you're going to be condescending ...

This message was an accident. I meant to respond to someone else and I screwed up. I'm new to the system and clearly don't know how to use it.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I'm confused, is there a reason you quoted me here? I had nothing to do with the exchange you're talking about.

That was an accident. I believe your message was embedded in the message I was trying to respond too and I accidently typed a reply to you. I realized it after and tried to fix it but I screwed up. I gave up and just ended up sending it as is. My apologies.

 

[thewave]

Kadri was the forgotten toy forever, till he had one good season last year and now suddenly he is this "biggest mistake ever". There is a reason he was traded away, the organization was done with his shenanigans.

Perhaps but that being said. I remember a certain high profile coach saying he is the sort of player you win with. He is now legitimately the sort of player someone has won with.

The liability was on a team and won it all. We have more talent on this team and haven't won a series yet.

 

[Twine Tickler]

If it were up to me I'd extend Kyle right now. He's a great hockey mind, and he is only getting better at his job with each passing year. We'd be stupid to let him go IMO. He is a man who will have a very lengthy career in NHL management, and for good reason. He operates his club with a future focused mindset, with integrity, and he is incredibly innovative. Kyle's job has been on a the line for the past 3 seasons, and despite all of that he has yet to make that hail mary move that would desperately put us in a bind should it fail. If you need more proof of how common this type of play is, look no further then Hall of Famer Luo Lamerillo's most recent acquisition and signing of Bo Horvat. He gave up his only prospect of note, traded his 1st rounder for the 4th straight year, and then signed Bo to a max term deal at an AAV value that only aligns the highest statistical output of Horvat's career and not the 8 years of consistent data that proceeded it. Almost certainly to miss the playoffs regardless, and more then likely sending his team into yet another 5+ year purgatory with the aging roster he has committed to. All in an attempt to salvage his job.

Kyle has yet to demonstrate that level of desperation, despite being in the most intense pressure of any GM in the NHL. That in itself shows to me that we have the right person for the job.

I am not here to argue with anyone on that either. I am entitled to my opinion on this, and so are the folks who feel differently. I am not moving on my belief in Kyle at this time, and vice versa. I respect those who do not feel the same as me, but I am not overly interested in going back and forth on this topic only to find neither party move on their original position.

 

[ACC1224]

If it were up to me I'd extend Kyle right now. He's a great hockey mind, and he is only getting better at his job with each passing year. We'd be stupid to let him go IMO. He is a man who will have a very lengthy career in NHL management, and for good reason. He operates his club with a future focused mindset, with integrity, and he is incredibly innovative. Kyle's job has been on a the line for the past 3 seasons, and despite all of that he has yet to make that hail mary move that would desperately put us in a bind should it fail. If you need more proof of how common this type of play is, look no further then Hall of Famer Luo Lamerillo's most recent acquisition and signing of Bo Horvat. He gave up his only prospect of note, traded his 1st rounder for the 4th straight year, and then signed a player to a max term deal at an AAV value that only aligns the highest statistical output of Horvat's career and not the 8 years of consistent data that proceeded it. Almost certainly to miss the playoffs regardless, and more then likely sending his team into yet another 5+ year purgatory with the aging roster he has committed to. All in an attempt to salvage his job.

Kyle has yet to demonstrate that level of desperation, despite being in the most intense pressure of any GM in the NHL. That in itself shows to me that we have the right person for the job.

I am not here to argue with anyone on that either. I am entitled to my opinion on this, and so are the folks who feel differently. I am not moving on my belief in Kyle at this time, and vice versa. I respect those who do not feel the same as me, but I am not overly interested in going back and forth on this topic only to find neither party move on their original position.

Good post but I never really understood the need to put down Lou in order to prop up Dubas, his performance should be able to stand on it's own.

Question, at what point does the lack of success become an issue for you? Another year? 2? 5? Never?

 

[Nineteen67]

Really informative piece that shows every move Lou made here. Obviously, the body of work shows some real stinkers, actually same with our current guy now that he has a long record, but overall it isn’t the tire fire that some argue here now, he made a lot of shrewd moves. And to be clear, I was in favour of Dubas taking over, I just wanted one more year to let Lou do the contracts, felt a rookie GM that was a big ask. Check this out without the jaundiced eyes for a change.

The Complete Reign of Lou Lamoriello

Let’s look at what Lou Lamoriello has done in his time as Leafs GM, and evaluate it.

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

Lou’s will be going to the HoF.

Dubas at least tries to make the team better, however those rookie mistakes keep haunting him.

 

[Nineteen67]

If it were up to me I'd extend Kyle right now. He's a great hockey mind, and he is only getting better at his job with each passing year. We'd be stupid to let him go IMO. He is a man who will have a very lengthy career in NHL management, and for good reason. He operates his club with a future focused mindset, with integrity, and he is incredibly innovative. Kyle's job has been on a the line for the past 3 seasons, and despite all of that he has yet to make that hail mary move that would desperately put us in a bind should it fail. If you need more proof of how common this type of play is, look no further then Hall of Famer Luo Lamerillo's most recent acquisition and signing of Bo Horvat. He gave up his only prospect of note, traded his 1st rounder for the 4th straight year, and then signed a player to a max term deal at an AAV value that only aligns the highest statistical output of Horvat's career and not the 8 years of consistent data that proceeded it. Almost certainly to miss the playoffs regardless, and more then likely sending his team into yet another 5+ year purgatory with the aging roster he has committed to. All in an attempt to salvage his job.

Kyle has yet to demonstrate that level of desperation, despite being in the most intense pressure of any GM in the NHL. That in itself shows to me that we have the right person for the job.

I am not here to argue with anyone on that either. I am entitled to my opinion on this, and so are the folks who feel differently. I am not moving on my belief in Kyle at this time, and vice versa. I respect those who do not feel the same as me, but I am not overly interested in going back and forth on this topic only to find neither party move on their original position.

I can see the benefits and the downside of re-signing him now.

IMO, I think the best thing to do is to wait and see if they can beat Tampa, if they do you let him retool. If they don’t, you let someone else be the bad guy and a fix the core.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Really informative piece that shows every move Lou made here. Obviously, the body of work shows some real stinkers, actually same with our current guy now that he has a long record, but overall it isn’t the tire fire that some argue here now, he made a lot of shrewd moves. And to be clear, I was in favour of Dubas taking over, I just wanted one more year to let Lou do the contracts, felt a rookie GM that was a big ask. Check this out without the jaundiced eyes for a change.

The Complete Reign of Lou Lamoriello

Let’s look at what Lou Lamoriello has done in his time as Leafs GM, and evaluate it.

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

Lou did a great job of tearing everything down for us to get the rebuild going. He has made some great trades like getting 2nds for Polak in consecutive years but he has also made bad trades as well, like Romanov, Toews, and Pageau.

I definitely get the not wanting a rookie GM to handle the contracts of up and coming stars but I never understood why people think Lou would have done better? The man has been signing horrible contracts with every team he has managed in the cap era. Many posters on here complain about Dubas signing a superstar to 1.5M more than some of his comparables but in the next sentence wish we had kept a GM that signs a bunch of 40-50 pt guys pushing 30 to contracts that are 2M overpaid and then has his teams be cap strapped only to lose a young up and coming star like Toews because he couldn't afford to keep him.

Also Lou's drafting record has been pretty abysmal with NJ, Leafs and now Isles the last 15 yrs. He left NJ in terrible shape, the Leafs should've had guys stepping in as replacement support players the past 2 yrs and now the Isles have a pretty bare prospect pool. Especially after trading Raty.

@ACC1224 the reason why people are tearing down Lou is because many of the posters who rip on Dubas are for the most part the same ones who think we should've kept Lou. It's fair to point out Lou's many flaws and why we maybe wouldn't be better off with him.

In all likely hood Dubas is not back after this year, if we can replace him with someone better, I'm all for it but so far in this thread that is about his replacement, no one has really been offering up any suggestions as to who would be that upgrade.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Do be clear, I find that to be a ridiculous assertion, and equally ridiculous if for you to interpret that as saying "keep him because it could be worse"

This was your reply. The part in quotations was someone name Tuttle, not me. You used the quotation directly in your response and implied it was me who said it.

But continue.....

But I never did that.

This message was an accident. I meant to respond to someone else and I screwed up. I'm new to the system and clearly don't know how to use it.

No worries, we all make mistakes. Even those with thousands of posts get mixed up at times.

If it were up to me I'd extend Kyle right now. He's a great hockey mind, and he is only getting better at his job with each passing year. We'd be stupid to let him go IMO. He is a man who will have a very lengthy career in NHL management, and for good reason. He operates his club with a future focused mindset, with integrity, and he is incredibly innovative. Kyle's job has been on a the line for the past 3 seasons, and despite all of that he has yet to make that hail mary move that would desperately put us in a bind should it fail. If you need more proof of how common this type of play is, look no further then Hall of Famer Luo Lamerillo's most recent acquisition and signing of Bo Horvat. He gave up his only prospect of note, traded his 1st rounder for the 4th straight year, and then signed a player to a max term deal at an AAV value that only aligns the highest statistical output of Horvat's career and not the 8 years of consistent data that proceeded it. Almost certainly to miss the playoffs regardless, and more then likely sending his team into yet another 5+ year purgatory with the aging roster he has committed to. All in an attempt to salvage his job.

Kyle has yet to demonstrate that level of desperation, despite being in the most intense pressure of any GM in the NHL. That in itself shows to me that we have the right person for the job.

I am not here to argue with anyone on that either. I am entitled to my opinion on this, and so are the folks who feel differently. I am not moving on my belief in Kyle at this time, and vice versa. I respect those who do not feel the same as me, but I am not overly interested in going back and forth on this topic only to find neither party move on their original position.

Yup. I'd extend him right now as well. He's done some things I wouldn't have done but as I've said before, he's done a lot more good things than bad, and he's the best GM we've had in a very long time.

You make a good point with the Lou story IMO. The Horvat move is just so crazy, it's exactly the kind of desperate move that people have been saying since at least a year ago that Dubas will make to try to save his job. I keep saying that Dubas has more integrity than that, seems like he's always tried to do what's best for the team so ...

Good post but I never really understood the need to put down Lou in order to prop up Dubas, his performance should be able to stand on it's own.

Question, at what point does the lack of success become an issue for you? Another year? 2? 5? Never?

There have been probably thousands of posts here going on and on about how we should have kept Lou instead of Dubas, praising all the work he's done, how he's going to the HOF and how much Dubas sucks and so on. You seem to post here every day so I imagine you're well aware of this. Funny how you don't seem to have a problem with people bringing up Lou to put down Dubas but you don't like this poster using the Lou example to defend Dubas.

 

[ACC1224]

Lou did a great job of tearing everything down for us to get the rebuild going. He has made some great trades like getting 2nds for Polak in consecutive years but he has also made bad trades as well, like Romanov, Toews, and Pageau.

I definitely get the not wanting a rookie GM to handle the contracts of up and coming stars but I never understood why people think Lou would have done better? The man has been signing horrible contracts with every team he has managed in the cap era. Many posters on here complain about Dubas signing a superstar to 1.5M more than some of his comparables but in the next sentence wish we had kept a GM that signs a bunch of 40-50 pt guys pushing 30 to contracts that are 2M overpaid and then has his teams be cap strapped only to lose a young up and coming star like Toews because he couldn't afford to keep him.

Also Lou's drafting record has been pretty abysmal with NJ, Leafs and now Isles the last 15 yrs. He left NJ in terrible shape, the Leafs should've had guys stepping in as replacement support players the past 2 yrs and now the Isles have a pretty bare prospect pool. Especially after trading Raty.

@ACC1224 the reason why people are tearing down Lou is because many of the posters who rip on Dubas are for the most part the same ones who think we should've kept Lou. It's fair to point out Lou's many flaws and why we maybe wouldn't be better off with him.

In all likely hood Dubas is not back after this year, if we can replace him with someone better, I'm all for it but so far in this thread that is about his replacement, no one has really been offering up any suggestions as to who would be that upgrade.

I didn't know think there were that many that wanted to keep him for the long term. Sure there are always a few but I always thought the majority wanted Dubas, most others wanted them to look outside the organization and then a few wanting Lou or Hunter.

Every team is different, is at different stages and has different challenges.
Whatever he did on the Island doesn't necessarily mean he would do them here.
Just seems silly to me.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Good post but I never really understood the need to put down Lou in order to prop up Dubas, his performance should be able to stand on it's own.

Question, at what point does the lack of success become an issue for you? Another year? 2? 5? Never?

I am not to sure that answer is as black and white as that. In my opinion, I genuinely think the Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy to win in pro sport. Of course there needs to me notable signs of progression in the meantime that mark success, but at the end of the day, this roster would be Cup or bust regardless. Lets pretend our stumbling block was the 3rd round vs. 1st round. Wherein, say we just couldn't get past the conference finals the last 3 seasons as opposed to the 1st round. IMO, The goalposts would just move. The criticism of this core, the coaching staff, and Kyle would be the exact same. "This team is not built to win it all". Sure there may be more folks out there that would be on board with the vision, but I really don't think it would be as many as some would think. Afterall, Kyle has been a controversial figure in Leafs Nation from almost the beginning of his tenure.

For me, knowing how difficult it is to win it all, the only approach is to maintain a future focused approach at all times. Of course there are times when you need to put a heavier stake of chips into the middle of the table, but I do not believe in the "all-in" approach. Not in the NHL at least. There is way too much parity in the NHL and all 16 teams that make the playoffs have the ability to win a 7 game series against any of the other teams in any given year. If a team with Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Foote, Hejduk, Blake, Kariya, Selanne...etc can get bounced in the 2nd round pre salary cap, imagine how hard it is for teams to win it all by pushing all their chips to the middle in today's NHL.

I will begin to lose faith in Kyle when he begins to compromise that future focused approach. His back has been up against the wall for a long time now, and he hasn't shown that desperation that we'd normally see from GM's in his situation. If it were up to some posters in this forum, Nylander would not have been a Leaf at this current time, Marner would have also likely been dealt by now and we'd almost certainly not have the prospect pool that we do. All to have the same ultimate outcome in the playoffs, with maybe 1 or 2 series wins under our belt. Whoopty doo.

Like I said, I think sustained success year over year is our only way to achieve the ultimate prize over time. I will take as many first round exits as it takes to win the cup eventually.

For the record, I am not one of those Dubas supporters who blindly support every move he makes, nor am I one to suggest he's not made any mistakes in his tenure. He's made plenty. But when assessing his entire body of work, this is a very intelligent man, and a bright hockey mind. I genuinely feel like we'd be foolish to part ways at this point.

Lastly, I am definitely guilty of being the guy who props Dubas up by referencing the failures of other GM's, and specifically Lou. The reason I do that is to bring forward the widely available alternative. More importantly bring forward the philosophical adversary to someone like Kyle. Not to suggest anyone who wants Kyle gone, wants the exact opposite version of him as a replacement, but to some degree there is some truth to that. A lot of the adjectives that have been used in a negative association to Kyle have been inexperienced, pushover, spineless, over analytical...etc. Lou just so happens to represent the exact opposite of that narrative. But you could insert any of the following GM's into that category and get the same outcome: Rutherford, Burke, Hextall, Holland, Fletcher...etc.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I am not to sure that answer is as black and white as that. In my opinion, I genuinely think the Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy to win in pro sport. Of course there needs to me notable signs of progression in the meantime that mark success, but at the end of the day, this roster would be Cup or bust regardless. Lets pretend our stumbling block was the 3rd round vs. 1st round. Wherein, say we just couldn't get past the conference finals the last 3 seasons as opposed to the 1st round. IMO, The goalposts would just move. The criticism of this core, the coaching staff, and Kyle would be the exact same. "This team is not built to win it all". Sure there may be more folks out there that would be on board with the vision, but I really don't think it would be as many as some would think. Afterall, Kyle has been a controversial figure in Leafs Nation from almost the beginning of his tenure.

For me, knowing how difficult it is to win it all, the only approach is to maintain a future focused approach at all times. Of course there are times when you need to put a heavier stake of chips into the middle of the table, but I do not believe in the "all-in" approach. Not in the NHL at least. There is way too much parity in the NHL and all 16 teams that make the playoffs have the ability to win a 7 game series against any of the other teams in any given year. If a team with Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Foote, Hejduk, Blake, Kariya, Selanne...etc can get bounced in the 2nd round pre salary cap, imagine how hard it is for teams to win it all by pushing all their chips to the middle in today's NHL.

I will begin to lose faith in Kyle when he begins to compromise that future focused approach. His back has been up against the wall for a long time now, and he hasn't shown that desperation that we'd normally see from GM's in his situation. If it were up to some posters in this forum, Nylander would not have been a Leaf at this current time, Marner would have also likely been dealt by now and we'd almost certainly not have the prospect pool that we do. All to have the same ultimate outcome in the playoffs, with maybe 1 or 2 series wins under our belt. Whoopty doo.

Like I said, I think sustained success year over year is our only way to achieve the ultimate prize over time. I will take as many first round exits as it takes to win the cup eventually.

For the record, I am not one of those Dubas supporters who blindly support every move he makes, nor am I one to suggest he's not made any mistakes in his tenure. He's made plenty. But when assessing his entire body of work, this is a very intelligent man, and a bright hockey mind. I genuinely feel like we'd be foolish to part ways at this point.

Lastly, I am definitely guilty of being the guy who props Dubas up by referencing the failures of other GM's, and specifically Lou. The reason I do that is to bring forward the widely available alternative. More importantly bring forward the philosophical adversary to someone like Kyle. Not to suggest anyone who wants Kyle gone, wants the exact opposite version of him as a replacement, but to some degree there is some truth to that. A lot of the adjectives that have been used in a negative association to Kyle have been inexperienced, pushover, spineless, over analytical...etc. Lou just so happens to represent the exact opposite of that narrative. But you could insert any of the following GM's into that category and get the same outcome: Rutherford, Burke, Hextall, Holland, Fletcher...etc.

Great post! This is exactly the problem with most of the discussion about Dubas - there are so many people for whom it is black and white, we haven't won in the playoffs so that's that. Any kind of thoughtful analysis beyond that is lost on these people, as is usually the case once the pitchforks have come out.

It's unfortunate that things have gone down the say they have, even just one OT goal against MTL and narrative would be completely different. We've lost 3 series in which we were the underdogs, lost one that was pickem against CLB and had we just one that MTL series, the results would be pretty closely lined up with the expectations. Just one less save by Price is all it would have took, that series was so obviously one that we could have one which means that all these people saying that this team "can't win", are either out to lunch or they don't understand what the word "can't" means.

The "can't win" theory also makes no sense to me because I don't see how you can say that about any team that makes it to game 7. If you've won 3 out of 6, it's possible to win one more and saying it "can't" happen just makes no sense whatsoever. This team can win, that much is obvious. Now it's time for them to prove it.

The last 5 playoff series, play them over again a hundred times and we probably win about 40% of them in the long run. So far this team has grossly underachieved, hopefully this is the year where the outcome is different, we'll see.

 

[Twine Tickler]

at the end of the day, I know a lot of people do not want to hear this, but it is very likely not our year to go for it all. In fact it would be absolutely foolish to go "all in".

Boston is having a historically outrageous season, and the winner of 2 of the last 3 Stanley Cups and B2B2B Stanley Cup finalists is our likely first round opponent. Moving a top prospect and 1st rounder does not drastically improve our chances at getting by both of these teams. We are sitting on 2 suited face cards while the 2 other players left in the table have pocket kings and aces. Not exactly the time to put our nuts on the line.

Additionally, I'd argue one of the more savvy moves last deadline was the acquisition of Mark Giordano, which cost a fraction of the more coveted Ben Chiarott and Claude Giroux. We all know how that story ends in FLA. Lets not follow that same script.

If the price is right to improve, and improve in a way that contributes to a long term vision, ie. a player with term, yes absolutely do so. But to move high valued assets for a rental in a year where we will have to go through TB AND BOS is a move only a desperate person would make. Dubas has shown incredible restrain thus far, I do not expect that to change.

As long as the Future is the focus, we will eventually strike gold.

 

[ACC1224]

I am not to sure that answer is as black and white as that. In my opinion, I genuinely think the Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy to win in pro sport. Of course there needs to me notable signs of progression in the meantime that mark success, but at the end of the day, this roster would be Cup or bust regardless. Lets pretend our stumbling block was the 3rd round vs. 1st round. Wherein, say we just couldn't get past the conference finals the last 3 seasons as opposed to the 1st round. IMO, The goalposts would just move. The criticism of this core, the coaching staff, and Kyle would be the exact same. "This team is not built to win it all". Sure there may be more folks out there that would be on board with the vision, but I really don't think it would be as many as some would think. Afterall, Kyle has been a controversial figure in Leafs Nation from almost the beginning of his tenure.

For me, knowing how difficult it is to win it all, the only approach is to maintain a future focused approach at all times. Of course there are times when you need to put a heavier stake of chips into the middle of the table, but I do not believe in the "all-in" approach. Not in the NHL at least. There is way too much parity in the NHL and all 16 teams that make the playoffs have the ability to win a 7 game series against any of the other teams in any given year. If a team with Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Foote, Hejduk, Blake, Kariya, Selanne...etc can get bounced in the 2nd round pre salary cap, imagine how hard it is for teams to win it all by pushing all their chips to the middle in today's NHL.

I will begin to lose faith in Kyle when he begins to compromise that future focused approach. His back has been up against the wall for a long time now, and he hasn't shown that desperation that we'd normally see from GM's in his situation. If it were up to some posters in this forum, Nylander would not have been a Leaf at this current time, Marner would have also likely been dealt by now and we'd almost certainly not have the prospect pool that we do. All to have the same ultimate outcome in the playoffs, with maybe 1 or 2 series wins under our belt. Whoopty doo.

Like I said, I think sustained success year over year is our only way to achieve the ultimate prize over time. I will take as many first round exits as it takes to win the cup eventually.

For the record, I am not one of those Dubas supporters who blindly support every move he makes, nor am I one to suggest he's not made any mistakes in his tenure. He's made plenty. But when assessing his entire body of work, this is a very intelligent man, and a bright hockey mind. I genuinely feel like we'd be foolish to part ways at this point.

Lastly, I am definitely guilty of being the guy who props Dubas up by referencing the failures of other GM's, and specifically Lou. The reason I do that is to bring forward the widely available alternative. More importantly bring forward the philosophical adversary to someone like Kyle. Not to suggest anyone who wants Kyle gone, wants the exact opposite version of him as a replacement, but to some degree there is some truth to that. A lot of the adjectives that have been used in a negative association to Kyle have been inexperienced, pushover, spineless, over analytical...etc. Lou just so happens to represent the exact opposite of that narrative. But you could insert any of the following GM's into that category and get the same outcome: Rutherford, Burke, Hextall, Holland, Fletcher...etc.

Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.
I agree rarely are things black and white but at some point things will need to change even if it's just for the sake of change.

Don't agree at all with the bolded. The outlook would be immensely different if they were winning series every year.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I didn't know think there were that many that wanted to keep him for the long term. Sure there are always a few but I always thought the majority wanted Dubas, most others wanted them to look outside the organization and then a few wanting Lou or Hunter.

Every team is different, is at different stages and has different challenges.
Whatever he did on the Island doesn't necessarily mean he would do them here.
Just seems silly to me.

It's definitely fair to have wanted to look outside the organization. It seemed like it was always going to be Dubas. He was groomed for several years in the organization and won a Calder cup with the Marlies. Lou said himself that if Dubas wasn't GM by the time his tenure was done that he did something wrong.

My point about his contracts with islanders is that he has a long history of signing poor contracts. He did it here with the Marleau and Zaitsev deals. Not long after he got to the island, he was signing power forwards and grinders who don't produce mechanical were approaching their 30s to bad deals. I don't have any more confidence in him than I would Dubas to navigate the cap and ice a deeper roster around our core based on his history the last 10 yrs. He lost one of the best young d men in the league and did absolutely nothing all summer with his roster because of his cap issues. His aging team is fighting for a playoff spot and can't score. Horvat should help but it's unrealistic to think this outlier year for him will continue going forward with his s% and that contract is going to further be a problem for them.

 

[ACC1224]

It's definitely fair to have wanted to look outside the organization. It seemed like it was always going to be Dubas. He was groomed for several years in the organization and won a Calder cup with the Marlies. Lou said himself that if Dubas wasn't GM by the time his tenure was done that he did something wrong.

My point about his contracts with islanders is that he has a long history of signing poor contracts. He did it here with the Marleau and Zaitsev deals. Not long after he got to the island, he was signing power forwards and grinders who don't produce mechanical were approaching their 30s to bad deals. I don't have any more confidence in him than I would Dubas to navigate the cap and ice a deeper roster around our core based on his history the last 10 yrs. He lost one of the best young d men in the league and did absolutely nothing all summer with his roster because of his cap issues. His aging team is fighting for a playoff spot and can't score. Horvat should help but it's unrealistic to think this outlier year for him will continue going forward with his s% and that contract is going to further be a problem for them.

Yeah, it was always going to be Dubas anyone who thought different wasn't paying attention.
It is a little unsettling though that Lou and all his flaws was brought in to mentor Dubas for his role.
Hopefully he didn't pay much attention.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.
I agree rarely are things black and white but at some point things will need to change even if it's just for the sake of change.

Don't agree at all with the bolded. The outlook would be immensely different if they were winning series every year.

ya I agree, I am not sure when that time will come, but you are right it will come at some point. I know this may be a controversial opinion on here given the lack of our playoff success year over year, but the team has gotten better each year. We continue to find new ways to win games and improve on our deficiencies of years past. We went from 20 years of defensive embarrassment where we routinely fell into the bottom 3rd of almost every measurable statistic to 3 straight seasons of being in the top 10.

The core has been together since they were teens, so it feels like their failures have lasted forever. Which to a degree they have. But this team is still very much in a healthy competing window. Especially with the next wave of youth pressing for roles.

It's hard to ask of a fanbase to remain patient after 7 seasons of post season failure, but unfortunately I think that's just what we need to do. We owe it to ourselves to see this most talented Leaf core to the bitter end IMO. As painful of a process as that may be, and as fruitless as it may become.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah, it was always going to be Dubas anyone who thought different wasn't paying attention.
It is a little unsettling though that Lou and all his flaws was brought in to mentor Dubas for his role.
Hopefully he didn't pay much attention.

In which case, Shanny has no idea how to plan. His best accomplishment was tanking for 34. You do not sign a coach for 8 years/$50m and then hire a GM less than 3 years later who can't co-exist with that coach. Try suggesting that in Arizona, Carolina, Buffalo, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, Vancouver, Anahiem, Miami, St. Louis, New Jersey, Long Island, Nashville, Columbus, Dallas and keeping your job.

 

[ACC1224]

ya I agree, I am not sure when that time will come, but you are right it will come at some point. I know this may be a controversial opinion on here given the lack of our playoff success year over year, but the team has gotten better each year. We continue to find new ways to win games and improve on our deficiencies of years past. We went from 20 years of defensive embarrassment where we routinely fell into the bottom 3rd of almost every measurable statistic to 3 straight seasons of being in the top 10.

The core has been together since they were teens, so it feels like their failures have lasted forever. Which to a degree they have. But this team is still very much in a healthy competing window. Especially with the next wave of youth pressing for roles.

It's hard to ask of a fanbase to remain patient after 7 seasons of post season failure, but unfortunately I think that's just what we need to do. We owe it to ourselves to see this most talented Leaf core to the bitter end IMO. As painful of a process as that may be, and as fruitless as it may become.

I've always believed Dubas would be back whether they win a round or not.
Do you think another failure will cost Keefe his job?
I think at a minimum a new voice in the room is a must if that were to happen.

In which case, Shanny has no idea how to plan. His best accomplishment was tanking for 34. You do not sign a coach for 8 years/$50m and then hire a GM less than 3 years later who can't co-exist with that coach. Try suggesting that in Arizona, Carolina, Buffalo, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, Vancouver, Anahiem, Miami, St. Louis, New Jersey, Long Island, Nashville, Columbus, Dallas and keeping your job.

Shanahan has made some puzzling moves, no doubt.
He never seems to have any heat directed his way.

 

[ToneDog]

I've always believed Dubas would be back whether they win a round or not.
Do you think another failure will cost Keefe his job?
I think at a minimum a new voice in the room is a must if that were to happen.


Shanahan has made some puzzling moves, no doubt.
He never seems to have any heat directed his way.

I can't remember the last time I've seen him say anything in the media. The guy has become virtually invisible.