Toronto Maple Leafs: Who Would Replace Kyle Dubas?

[Lemontree]

at the end of the day, I know a lot of people do not want to hear this, but it is very likely not our year to go for it all. In fact it would be absolutely foolish to go "all in".

Boston is having a historically outrageous season, and the winner of 2 of the last 3 Stanley Cups and B2B2B Stanley Cup finalists is our likely first round opponent. Moving a top prospect and 1st rounder does not drastically improve our chances at getting by both of these teams. We are sitting on 2 suited face cards while the 2 other players left in the table have pocket kings and aces. Not exactly the time to put our nuts on the line.

Additionally, I'd argue one of the more savvy moves last deadline was the acquisition of Mark Giordano, which cost a fraction of the more coveted Ben Chiarott and Claude Giroux. We all know how that story ends in FLA. Lets not follow that same script.

If the price is right to improve, and improve in a way that contributes to a long term vision, ie. a player with term, yes absolutely do so. But to move high valued assets for a rental in a year where we will have to go through TB AND BOS is a move only a desperate person would make. Dubas has shown incredible restrain thus far, I do not expect that to change.

As long as the Future is the focus, we will eventually strike gold.

This is the exact reason why Dubas has been a failure as a GM.
Tavares (32), Reilly (28), Nylander (26), Matthews (25), Marner (25) is your core and you are at the ceiling of the cap with: Tavares and Marner under contract for 2 more years till UFA. Matthews and Nylander signed for 1 more year till UFA.

I agree that this is not a "go all in" year because this team simply isn't good enough to be an actual contender. That is on Kyle Dubas because he has squander too many years of the window of what this team should have had......it is mind boggling to me that people who call themselves Leaf fans can't see how his inabilities to build a hockey team has cost what should have been a fun and exciting ride with this group of young elite talent.

Imagine on April 25, 2017 (day after Leafs eliminated by Capitals) that you were told that almost 6 years later that John Tavares was added to the young forward core (all on ELC at that time) and those 3 players would all end up becoming extremely close to their best case scenario player projections and the discussion wouldn't be around challenging for the Stanley Cup but is this the season they can finally win a round.

 

[rocketman588]

Dubas said many times they've drafted bpa based on inefficiencies , now i never never meant every draft pick but many of them and that's why he drafted so many smurfs and overagers .

and my grasp on the Marleau situation is just fine , it's not based however on making excuses for an incompetent GM

We draft on market deficiency more then BPA.

I think it's kids that are younger rather then older however. But yes more often then not we do not do bpa by classic BPA definition.

 

[MSZ]

I can't remember the last time I've seen him say anything in the media. The guy has become virtually invisible.

He doesn't even live in Toronto.

 

[Lemontree]

I think it's kids that are younger rather then older however. But yes more often then not we do not do bpa by classic BPA definition.

Dubas has been quoted before talking about the inefficiency model and how he believes "overagers" (non 1st year draft eligibility) are overlooked and creates opportunity for he and his staff.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is the exact reason why Dubas has been a failure as a GM.
Tavares (32), Reilly (28), Nylander (26), Matthews (25), Marner (25) is your core and you are at the ceiling of the cap with: Tavares and Marner under contract for 2 more years till UFA. Matthews and Nylander signed for 1 more year till UFA.

I agree that this is not a "go all in" year because this team simply isn't good enough to be an actual contender. That is on Kyle Dubas because he has squander too many years of the window of what this team should have had......it is mind boggling to me that people who call themselves Leaf fans can't see how his inabilities to build a hockey team has cost what should have been a fun and exciting ride with this group of young elite talent.

Imagine on April 25, 2017 (day after Leafs eliminated by Capitals) that you were told that almost 6 years later that John Tavares was added to the young forward core (all on ELC at that time) and those 3 players would all end up becoming extremely close to their best case scenario player projections and the discussion wouldn't be around challenging for the Stanley Cup but is this the season they can finally win a round.

Too black and white for me. I get it, no playoff round wins is failure but there are thousands of ways to fail, some of those are such that leave no hope of ever succeeding but other suggest that success could be just around the corner. I think this team is well set up to succeed any day now (cue the laughter).

What makes this tough to assess is that we keep getting to game 7 - every series was winnable. That we haven't won to me is on the players, they're good enough yet they haven't been able to do it. A lot of unfortunate circumstances as well, I hate to make excuses but there are a lot of places to look if you were so inclined:

Questionable refereeing.
Tavares injury.
Running into goaltenders playing the best hockey of their careers against us.
Tough division for playoffs so we're underdogs in the 1st round very often when we shouldn't be.

Or you could just ignore all the above and say Dubas is a moron, and it's all his fault. A bit too simplistic for me though, all the above did happen so there are many factors at play here and even if you do blame Dubas, it's hard (at least for me) to say what he should have done differently?

At the same time, this team didn't show up for 3 game 7's in a row, there's no excuse for that really so I would have been fine with big changes after the loss to MTL. But then last year was different, we played our hearts out against TB and as much as I'm always hated blaming the refs, this was another series where the refs arguably cost us the series. So maybe they've learned how to show up for game 7's and they will play well again this spring and maybe have better luck? Or maybe last season was an outlier, the team is really flawed and will again fade away when the going gets tough?

OK let's say that the team is somehow flawed, what's the flaw? Everything but the core has been revamped so ... do we trade Marner and then everything is cool? Or is it Matthews or Nylander? Tavares seems to be the popular choice but that's just too easy scapegoating for me personally, guy's a gud pro who might be overpaid by a couple of million but every team has some bad contracts so his contract shouldn't enough to doom the team so what's the fix?

I've said before what Marchand said and then Trotz - this team is too good not to win eventually. It's the hard path for sure, make a big trade or two, trade away some futures, fire the GM/coach, those are all things that will make some people feel good for a little while but how sure can we be that these moves will lead to success?

I think staying the course is the smart way to go. JMHO.

 

[geo25]

Really informative piece that shows every move Lou made here. Obviously, the body of work shows some real stinkers, actually same with our current guy now that he has a long record, but overall it isn’t the tire fire that some argue here now, he made a lot of shrewd moves. And to be clear, I was in favour of Dubas taking over, I just wanted one more year to let Lou do the contracts, felt a rookie GM that was a big ask. Check this out without the jaundiced eyes for a change.

The Complete Reign of Lou Lamoriello

Let’s look at what Lou Lamoriello has done in his time as Leafs GM, and evaluate it.

www.pensionplanpuppets.com

Agreed.Lou should have handled the contract negotiations...we would have been in a much better situation today

 

[Gabriel426]

Too black and white for me. I get it, no playoff round wins is failure but there are thousands of ways to fail, some of those are such that leave no hope of ever succeeding but other suggest that success could be just around the corner. I think this team is well set up to succeed any day now (cue the laughter).

What makes this tough to assess is that we keep getting to game 7 - every series was winnable. That we haven't won to me is on the players, they're good enough yet they haven't been able to do it. A lot of unfortunate circumstances as well, I hate to make excuses but there are a lot of places to look if you were so inclined:

Questionable refereeing.
Tavares injury.
Running into goaltenders playing the best hockey of their careers against us.
Tough division for playoffs so we're underdogs in the 1st round very often when we shouldn't be.

Or you could just ignore all the above and say Dubas is a moron, and it's all his fault. A bit too simplistic for me though, all the above did happen so there are many factors at play here and even if you do blame Dubas, it's hard (at least for me) to say what he should have done differently?

At the same time, this team didn't show up for 3 game 7's in a row, there's no excuse for that really so I would have been fine with big changes after the loss to MTL. But then last year was different, we played our hearts out against TB and as much as I'm always hated blaming the refs, this was another series where the refs arguably cost us the series. So maybe they've learned how to show up for game 7's and they will play well again this spring and maybe have better luck? Or maybe last season was an outlier, the team is really flawed and will again fade away when the going gets tough?

OK let's say that the team is somehow flawed, what's the flaw? Everything but the core has been revamped so ... do we trade Marner and then everything is cool? Or is it Matthews or Nylander? Tavares seems to be the popular choice but that's just too easy scapegoating for me personally, guy's a gud pro who might be overpaid by a couple of million but every team has some bad contracts so his contract shouldn't enough to doom the team so what's the fix?

I've said before what Marchand said and then Trotz - this team is too good not to win eventually. It's the hard path for sure, make a big trade or two, trade away some futures, fire the GM/coach, those are all things that will make some people feel good for a little while but how sure can we be that these moves will lead to success?

I think staying the course is the smart way to go. JMHO.

That’s the thing though, when is the time when you said, wait a second maybe these guys just can’t do it collectively.
It is not winning a round but winning the Cup. Let’s say the Leafs made it past the first round the past few years but never reach the Conf Finals and Cup Finals. Do you still run it back again, again and again and stay the course?
As a GM, you need to look at what the team needs to push over the hump for the Cup Finals. Looking at last year Final 4, Oilers is the only team that I can say with comfort Leafs can beat them, but they also didn’t make it to the SC Finals. You compare to Avs and TB and see what is missing.
It is easier to point to TB got Vas and Avs got Makar and that’s what the Leafs is missing. Since there are only one Makar and Vas in the league and both teams won’t let them go even with AM going their way, Dubas needs to figure out how to win and he had yet to do so.
Making changes to GM and MGT pretty much means one or two of the core 5 will be trade for other core pieces to help win the Cup. That might fall flat or might succeed. Or the new GM will stay put with the current team but get a coach that will employ our core better and bring in pieces that will have better success in playoffs but lower personal regular season stats for our boys. For example if next year, we have the Bruins record, but none of our guys are in top 20 scoring in the league. Can the players handle that? Can JT handle being a 60 pts player but the team having the best record in the league.

 

[kevsh]

OK let's say that the team is somehow flawed, what's the flaw? Everything but the core has been revamped so ... do we trade Marner and then everything is cool? Or is it Matthews or Nylander? Tavares seems to be the popular choice but that's just too easy scapegoating for me personally, guy's a gud pro who might be overpaid by a couple of million but every team has some bad contracts so his contract shouldn't enough to doom the team so what's the fix?

Simplest answer: Depth.

Just look at championship teams like TB and see how big a difference there is between their bottom 6 and 5/6th d-men and Toronto since Dubas arrived. All that money in the big 4 has meant every year Dubas is scouring the recycling bin to find reclamation projects, cast-offs and failed prospects to fill out his roster, and all at bargain basement prices because that's all he has to work with cap-wise.

And while TB has had its own cap crunch to deal with (putting aside the brilliant but arguably tilted strategy of the Kucherov LTIR ploy) they were able to trade for or sign great depth guys like Coleman (2yrs at $1.5M), Perry and Maroon.

Dubas on the other hand hasn't been nearly as successful in finding those impact depth pieces that the Leafs desperately need, especially late in the series when their stars can't always be relied on to carry the team.

(And that doesn't let the Leafs' stars off the hook either, but as we saw against TB last year, they mostly were very good to great but in the last 4-5 periods of the series they couldn't buy a goal. Neither could the Bolts top guys but the Lightning's depth guys bailed them out while Toronto's disappeared along with the stars.)

 

[LeafsNation75]

Lou did a great job of tearing everything down for us to get the rebuild going. He has made some great trades like getting 2nds for Polak in consecutive years but he has also made bad trades as well, like Romanov, Toews, and Pageau.

I definitely get the not wanting a rookie GM to handle the contracts of up and coming stars but I never understood why people think Lou would have done better? The man has been signing horrible contracts with every team he has managed in the cap era. Many posters on here complain about Dubas signing a superstar to 1.5M more than some of his comparables but in the next sentence wish we had kept a GM that signs a bunch of 40-50 pt guys pushing 30 to contracts that are 2M overpaid and then has his teams be cap strapped only to lose a young up and coming star like Toews because he couldn't afford to keep him.

Also Lou's drafting record has been pretty abysmal with NJ, Leafs and now Isles the last 15 yrs. He left NJ in terrible shape, the Leafs should've had guys stepping in as replacement support players the past 2 yrs and now the Isles have a pretty bare prospect pool. Especially after trading Raty.

@ACC1224 the reason why people are tearing down Lou is because many of the posters who rip on Dubas are for the most part the same ones who think we should've kept Lou. It's fair to point out Lou's many flaws and why we maybe wouldn't be better off with him.

In all likely hood Dubas is not back after this year, if we can replace him with someone better, I'm all for it but so far in this thread that is about his replacement, no one has really been offering up any suggestions as to who would be that upgrade.

From July 1, 2017 until April 30, 2018 which was Lou's last day as the Leafs GM, during that period of time he didn't get Nylander re-signed to a contract extension, which meant he became an RFA on July 1, 2018 and that responsibility feel on Dubas to get done.

Say what you want about the contracts Dubas gave to Matthews and Marner, but one thing we can agree with the contract Dubas gave to Nylander is looking like a steal.

As for Lou's drafting record with Toronto and besides obvious selections like Matthews going 1st overall in 2016, I thought in the end it was Mark Hunter's call on who they selected? I know that's what Shanahan said would happen in 2015 which was before Lou was hired, so I assume the selection of Liljegren 17th overall in 2017 was Hunter's decision.

I didn't know think there were that many that wanted to keep him for the long term. Sure there are always a few but I always thought the majority wanted Dubas, most others wanted them to look outside the organization and then a few wanting Lou or Hunter.

Every team is different, is at different stages and has different challenges.
Whatever he did on the Island doesn't necessarily mean he would do them here.
Just seems silly to me.

How many of those Leafs fans who wanted to keep Dubas was because there were those reports of other teams who asked for interview him and leave the Leafs? In 2017 the Avalanche wanted permission to speak with him, and eventually that window had closed. During that same time frame, I don't remember other teams requesting permission to interview Mark Hunter, when Lou was still the Leafs GM.

Avalanche won't comment on seeking interview with Kyle Dubas: report | NHL.com

Maple Leafs assistant GM may have been granted permission to talk to Colorado

www.nhl.com

 

[ACC1224]

From July 1, 2017 until April 30, 2018 which was Lou's last day as the Leafs GM, during that period of time he didn't get Nylander re-signed to a contract extension, which meant he became an RFA on July 1, 2018 and that responsibility feel on Dubas to get done.

Say what you want about the contracts Dubas gave to Matthews and Marner, but one thing we can agree with the contract Dubas gave to Nylander is looking like a steal.

As for Lou's drafting record with Toronto and besides obvious selections like Matthews going 1st overall in 2016, I thought in the end it was Mark Hunter's call on who they selected? I know that's what Shanahan said would happen in 2015 which was before Lou was hired, so I assume the selection of Liljegren 17th overall in 2017 was Hunter's decision.


How many of those Leafs fans who wanted to keep Dubas was because there were those reports of other teams who asked for interview him and leave the Leafs? In 2017 the Avalanche wanted permission to speak with him, and eventually that window had closed. During that same time frame, I don't remember other teams requesting permission to interview Mark Hunter, when Lou was still the Leafs GM.

Avalanche won't comment on seeking interview with Kyle Dubas: report | NHL.com

Maple Leafs assistant GM may have been granted permission to talk to Colorado

www.nhl.com

What does the bolded have to do with anything?

 

[Lemontree]

Too black and white for me. I get it, no playoff round wins is failure but there are thousands of ways to fail, some of those are such that leave no hope of ever succeeding but other suggest that success could be just around the corner. I think this team is well set up to succeed any day now (cue the laughter).

What makes this tough to assess is that we keep getting to game 7 - every series was winnable. That we haven't won to me is on the players, they're good enough yet they haven't been able to do it. A lot of unfortunate circumstances as well, I hate to make excuses but there are a lot of places to look if you were so inclined:

Questionable refereeing.
Tavares injury.
Running into goaltenders playing the best hockey of their careers against us.
Tough division for playoffs so we're underdogs in the 1st round very often when we shouldn't be.

Or you could just ignore all the above and say Dubas is a moron, and it's all his fault. A bit too simplistic for me though, all the above did happen so there are many factors at play here and even if you do blame Dubas, it's hard (at least for me) to say what he should have done differently?

At the same time, this team didn't show up for 3 game 7's in a row, there's no excuse for that really so I would have been fine with big changes after the loss to MTL. But then last year was different, we played our hearts out against TB and as much as I'm always hated blaming the refs, this was another series where the refs arguably cost us the series. So maybe they've learned how to show up for game 7's and they will play well again this spring and maybe have better luck? Or maybe last season was an outlier, the team is really flawed and will again fade away when the going gets tough?

OK let's say that the team is somehow flawed, what's the flaw? Everything but the core has been revamped so ... do we trade Marner and then everything is cool? Or is it Matthews or Nylander? Tavares seems to be the popular choice but that's just too easy scapegoating for me personally, guy's a gud pro who might be overpaid by a couple of million but every team has some bad contracts so his contract shouldn't enough to doom the team so what's the fix?

I've said before what Marchand said and then Trotz - this team is too good not to win eventually. It's the hard path for sure, make a big trade or two, trade away some futures, fire the GM/coach, those are all things that will make some people feel good for a little while but how sure can we be that these moves will lead to success?

I think staying the course is the smart way to go. JMHO.

Questionable refereeing. - Every team has to deal with adversity. Contenders push forward.

Tavares injury. - This was 1 series. Every team has to deal with adversity. Contenders push forward.

Running into goaltenders playing the best hockey of their careers against us. After awhile you need to ask yourself why this is the case. Could it be that collectively the team is passive/soft and will not go to the "dirty" areas often enough to make goalies uncomfortable especially during the playoffs when there is a greater physical price to pay to get to those areas.

Tough division for playoffs so we're underdogs in the 1st round very often when we shouldn't be. Being an "underdog" doesn't matter also this group has held home ice advantage as well as having an opportunity to close out the series on home ice and has failed every single time. Stanley Cup is a tough path were you need to beat good teams....doesn't matter if your toughest opponent is in round 1, 2, 3 or 4.....you need to win.

Dubas could have changed the culture and playing style over the years as it was proven each post season that it was required, instead he opted for ageing vets (that were borderline 4th line players) and the UFA scrap heap. No changes were made other than when UFAs (Hyman, Campbell) went out the door and he tried to fill those holes with all scrap heaps (Petr Mrzak, Matt Murray, Nick Ritchie) The roster gets weaker (more holes) each off-season.

Example on how to change some of the roster, move Kerfoot and his $3.5M cap hit since he is a small soft winger on a team that is small and soft......you can live with it from Marner and Nylander as they actually produce offence.....what role does Kerfoot fit on THIS team?

 

[Pebble live]

Simplest answer: Depth.

Just look at championship teams like TB and see how big a difference there is between their bottom 6 and 5/6th d-men and Toronto since Dubas arrived. All that money in the big 4 has meant every year Dubas is scouring the recycling bin to find reclamation projects, cast-offs and failed prospects to fill out his roster, and all at bargain basement prices because that's all he has to work with cap-wise.

And while TB has had its own cap crunch to deal with (putting aside the brilliant but arguably tilted strategy of the Kucherov LTIR ploy) they were able to trade for or sign great depth guys like Coleman (2yrs at $1.5M), Perry and Maroon.

Dubas on the other hand hasn't been nearly as successful in finding those impact depth pieces that the Leafs desperately need, especially late in the series when their stars can't always be relied on to carry the team.

(And that doesn't let the Leafs' stars off the hook either, but as we saw against TB last year, they mostly were very good to great but in the last 4-5 periods of the series they couldn't buy a goal. Neither could the Bolts top guys but the Lightning's depth guys bailed them out while Toronto's disappeared along with the stars.)

Yup. Depth and the experiments like Kerfoot have gone on way too long.

I whole heartedly disagreed with the Rielly renewal as well. His time away this season really proved what this team can do defensively without him and it pissed me off even more. Leafs really could have found some proper depth for that 7 mill. Saying that Timmins wasn't in the organization and Sandman and Lilly weren't quite there yet so I can kind of understand. But Lilly and Sandman were close.

I would have dealt Rielly for some assets and the cap space.

 

[LeafsNation75]

What does the bolded have to do with anything?

My point was we had these reports of other teams like the Avalanche who wanted to hire Dubas because why would they request permission to interview him? During that same time period we never heard of any teams who requested permission wanting to interview Mark Hunter.

 

[ACC1224]

My point was we had these reports of other teams like the Avalanche who wanted to hire Dubas because why would they request permission to interview him? During that same time period we never heard of any teams who requested permission wanting to interview Mark Hunter.

Hunter wasn't looking for a job anywhere but Toronto.
Are you implying that not being interviewed for other positions is a poor reflection on Hunter?
That's pretty whacked out thinking if that's what you've come up with.

That's like saying the Leafs thought poorly of Dubas by letting him be interviewed.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Hunter wasn't looking for a job anywhere but Toronto.
Are you implying that not being interviewed for other positions is a poor reflection on Hunter?
That's pretty whacked out thinking if that's what you've come up with.

That's like saying the Leafs thought poorly of Dubas by letting him be interviewed.

Like I said before maybe some Leafs fans who defend Dubas no matter what, would have been disappointed if he had left Toronto for whatever job Colorado was interviewing him for.

You're right that Hunter wasn't looking for a job anywhere but Toronto, I was just wondering why no other teams requested to interview him the way Colorado requested to interview Dubas.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So you would evaluate someone on what they do in the future? Do you have a time machine ?

What are you even talking about? You evaluate based on their performance as GM.

I actually think it’s better we hash this out before the playoffs because afterwards people will be too emotional to think straight

Is it even being hashed out? Because all I see are people ignoring literally everything relevant, and defaulting exclusively to "did we win a series yet? No? FIRE HIM INTO THE SUN!", which is already a position entirely reliant on emotion.

 

[Twine Tickler]

That is on Kyle Dubas because he has squander too many years of the window of what this team should have had......it is mind boggling to me that people who call themselves Leaf fans can't see how his inabilities to build a hockey team

Again, I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion on Kyle as a GM. I am not trying to sway anyone into the pro-Dubas crowd. You strongly feel he has been the reason for our lack of playoff success, and I clearly do not. That is totally fine.

My opinions are going to differ from others, which is why I try to preface everything I write with IMO. I think it's very lazy to suggest that all true Leaf fans should be aligned with how you feel towards Kyle Dubas.

I have been on this planet for 32 years, and I have recollections of being a die hard Leaf fan for over 27 of those years. My opinions are not formulated from nothing. I have the exact same scars and bruises as you, or anyone on here for that matter. I spent the majority of my fandom watching GM's consistently put lipstick on a pig and pay no attention to the future despite sitting on 7 deuce after 7 deuce. We have a GM now that has not only improved our club since taking over, but has also improved our prospect depth to a point I personally have not seen prior. Despite only having 1 top 15 pick in Rodian Amirov. Who might I add was selected exactly at 15, and eventually suffered an unforeseen and tragic illness, but more then likely would have been an NHL player had that not occurred. Before you or anyone talks about the prospect depth when Mitch, Willy, Mo and Auston were all pups....Lets not pretend like it took a whole lot of thought and skill to select those players where we did. Auston was a clear cut #1, Mitch should have gone #3 but AZ were complete idiots and selected Strome, and Willy was just a nice piece of work at 8 and Mo was an excellent piece of work at 5. I am not trying to detract from the previous GM's work in selecting those players, but their failures in building an adequate team put them in a position to select those players.

All n all, I respect you for having different viewpoints on this, but by every tangible reasoning I can think of based on my tenure as a Leaf fan, I cannot see any reason to believe we don't have the right person for this job. Feel free to think otherwise, I am not going to stop you.

 

[ToneDog]

Again, I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion on Kyle as a GM. I am not trying to sway anyone into the pro-Dubas crowd. You strongly feel he has been the reason for our lack of playoff success, and I clearly do not. That is totally fine.

My opinions are going to differ from others, which is why I try to preface everything I write with IMO. I think it's very lazy to suggest that all true Leaf fans should be aligned with how you feel towards Kyle Dubas.

I have been on this planet for 32 years, and I have recollections of being a die hard Leaf fan for over 27 of those years. My opinions are not formulated from nothing. I have the exact same scars and bruises as you, or anyone on here for that matter. I spent the majority of my fandom watching GM's consistently put lipstick on a pig and pay no attention to the future despite sitting on 7 deuce after 7 deuce. We have a GM now that has not only improved our club since taking over, but has also improved our prospect depth to a point I personally have not seen prior. Despite only having 1 top 15 pick in Rodian Amirov. Who might I add was selected exactly at 15, and eventually suffered an unforeseen and tragic illness, but more then likely would have been an NHL player had that not occurred. Before you or anyone talks about the prospect depth when Mitch, Willy, Mo and Auston were all pups....Lets not pretend like it took a whole lot of thought and skill to select those players where we did. Auston was a clear cut #1, Mitch should have gone #3 but AZ were complete idiots and selected Strome, and Willy was just a nice piece of work at 8 and Mo was an excellent piece of work at 5. I am not trying to detract from the previous GM's work in selecting those players, but their failures in building an adequate team put them in a position to select those players.

All n all, I respect you for having different viewpoints on this, but by every tangible reasoning I can think of based on my tenure as a Leaf fan, I cannot see any reason to believe we don't have the right person for this job. Feel free to think otherwise, I am not going to stop you.

So if we lose to Tampa again making him 5/5 in first round exits, what would you do with Kyle ??

 

[ACC1224]

Like I said before maybe some Leafs fans who defend Dubas no matter what, would have been disappointed if he had left Toronto for whatever job Colorado was interviewing him for.

You're right that Hunter wasn't looking for a job anywhere but Toronto, I was just wondering why no other teams requested to interview him the way Colorado requested to interview Dubas.

He probably said 'No' and that was the end of it. I'm sure he still gets calls that he turns down for various roles.
Not everything becomes public knowledge.

 

[All Mod Cons]

So if we lose to Tampa again making him 5/5 in first round exits, what would you do with Kyle ??

Extend him. See how long it goes on for.

 

[Mess]

He probably said 'No' and that was the end of it. I'm sure he still gets calls that he turns down for various roles.
Not everything becomes public knowledge.

Its tampering if you talk to a player under contract to another team and subject to fines and penalties.

However is that also true for management that is under contract to another team?

 

[ErnieLeafs]

I didn't know think there were that many that wanted to keep him for the long term. Sure there are always a few but I always thought the majority wanted Dubas, most others wanted them to look outside the organization and then a few wanting Lou or Hunter.

Every team is different, is at different stages and has different challenges.
Whatever he did on the Island doesn't necessarily mean he would do them here.
Just seems silly to me.

I agree, in that there’s no use in putting one down to prop up the other. They’ve both had successes and mistakes. At the end of the day, the guy we have now needs to make shrewd moves at this deadline to see if he can help the team over the hump.

We’ll judge him based on the results going forward

 

[ACC1224]

Its tampering if you talk to a player under contract to another team and subject to fines and penalties.

However is that also true for management that is under contract to another team?

I doubt it. Management doesn't fall under the CBA.

 

[All Mod Cons]

So if we lose to Tampa again making him 5/5 in first round exits, what would you do with Kyle ??

It's always "I'll give him one more year". It's been one more year with Kyle for 3 years. I believe his supporters have no intention of ever moving away from him. It'll just be another one more year and I'll judge him then. Rinse and repeat.

There's no end in sight.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That’s the thing though, when is the time when you said, wait a second maybe these guys just can’t do it collectively.
It is not winning a round but winning the Cup. Let’s say the Leafs made it past the first round the past few years but never reach the Conf Finals and Cup Finals. Do you still run it back again, again and again and stay the course?
As a GM, you need to look at what the team needs to push over the hump for the Cup Finals. Looking at last year Final 4, Oilers is the only team that I can say with comfort Leafs can beat them, but they also didn’t make it to the SC Finals. You compare to Avs and TB and see what is missing.
It is easier to point to TB got Vas and Avs got Makar and that’s what the Leafs is missing. Since there are only one Makar and Vas in the league and both teams won’t let them go even with AM going their way, Dubas needs to figure out how to win and he had yet to do so.
Making changes to GM and MGT pretty much means one or two of the core 5 will be trade for other core pieces to help win the Cup. That might fall flat or might succeed. Or the new GM will stay put with the current team but get a coach that will employ our core better and bring in pieces that will have better success in playoffs but lower personal regular season stats for our boys. For example if next year, we have the Bruins record, but none of our guys are in top 20 scoring in the league. Can the players handle that? Can JT handle being a 60 pts player but the team having the best record in the league.

Hard questions, no easy answers. Re. the bolded though, is it Dubas that needs to figure out how to win? Or is it the players? I'm not so sure that there is any way for Dubas to see in advance that the team is good until game 7, and then they fold. I mean that's not what happened last year but it is what happened the 3 years previous (and in period 3 of game 7 the year before that).

Simplest answer: Depth.

Just look at championship teams like TB and see how big a difference there is between their bottom 6 and 5/6th d-men and Toronto since Dubas arrived. All that money in the big 4 has meant every year Dubas is scouring the recycling bin to find reclamation projects, cast-offs and failed prospects to fill out his roster, and all at bargain basement prices because that's all he has to work with cap-wise.

And while TB has had its own cap crunch to deal with (putting aside the brilliant but arguably tilted strategy of the Kucherov LTIR ploy) they were able to trade for or sign great depth guys like Coleman (2yrs at $1.5M), Perry and Maroon.

Dubas on the other hand hasn't been nearly as successful in finding those impact depth pieces that the Leafs desperately need, especially late in the series when their stars can't always be relied on to carry the team.

(And that doesn't let the Leafs' stars off the hook either, but as we saw against TB last year, they mostly were very good to great but in the last 4-5 periods of the series they couldn't buy a goal. Neither could the Bolts top guys but the Lightning's depth guys bailed them out while Toronto's disappeared along with the stars.)

The TB series could have either way so I'm not sure that qualifies as some sort of evidence that Dubas has made bad decisions. Run it over 100 times and we win close to half of them, that's JMHO anyway FWIW.

More depth would be good though, I agree with you there for sure and my hope is that we are able to upgrade our bottom 6 before the TDL without giving up our best picks/prospects. Should be doable, we'll see.

TB also does have an edge with their stars not demanding top dollar the way our guys have. That's not nothing.

Questionable refereeing. - Every team has to deal with adversity. Contenders push forward.

Tavares injury. - This was 1 series. Every team has to deal with adversity. Contenders push forward.

Running into goaltenders playing the best hockey of their careers against us. After awhile you need to ask yourself why this is the case. Could it be that collectively the team is passive/soft and will not go to the "dirty" areas often enough to make goalies uncomfortable especially during the playoffs when there is a greater physical price to pay to get to those areas.

Tough division for playoffs so we're underdogs in the 1st round very often when we shouldn't be. Being an "underdog" doesn't matter also this group has held home ice advantage as well as having an opportunity to close out the series on home ice and has failed every single time. Stanley Cup is a tough path were you need to beat good teams....doesn't matter if your toughest opponent is in round 1, 2, 3 or 4.....you need to win.

Dubas could have changed the culture and playing style over the years as it was proven each post season that it was required, instead he opted for ageing vets (that were borderline 4th line players) and the UFA scrap heap. No changes were made other than when UFAs (Hyman, Campbell) went out the door and he tried to fill those holes with all scrap heaps (Petr Mrzak, Matt Murray, Nick Ritchie) The roster gets weaker (more holes) each off-season.

Example on how to change some of the roster, move Kerfoot and his $3.5M cap hit since he is a small soft winger on a team that is small and soft......you can live with it from Marner and Nylander as they actually produce offence.....what role does Kerfoot fit on THIS team?

Well, I assume we are pushing forward. At least I have to hope that nobody on our team has given up. Don't get me wrong, we should have beaten MTL but still, losing Tavares and Price starting to play like the all-time great he is capable of being are mitigating factors to at least some degree. Just one save less from Price and we win that series which is why it makes no sense to me when people say we "can't win".

I don't know if not going to dirty areas is the problem, it is true though that not being able to buy a goal when we need it the most. But can you really blame Dubas for thinking that a group of players that includes M&M + Nylander + Tavares can't score? He can't put the puck into the net for them, they need to be able to come through when it matters most. I don't know what the answer is here, I'm as baffled as anyone that these guys can't score in game 7, if were to say trade Marner or Nylander, wouldn't surprise me the least bit to see them score a game 7 winner for some other team. Makes one almost believe in curses.

Kerfoot's gone downhill, that's disappointing. There's a lot of blame to go around but at the end of the day, I think this is a really good team and hopefully they finally break through this spring. I know many seem to think it can't happen, I'm not one of them.