Top 5 “can’t win with ‘em” players

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Any one drafted by The Buffalo sabres

Eichel and Reinhart are doing just fine.

 

[Szechwan]

Having Pettersson here doesn't make sense.

He had 18pts in 19gp in his first taste of the NHL playoffs and won the SHL playoff MVP in his D+1.

This year he put up 77pts in 55gp, then hurt his knee around the Allstar break and struggled all the way up to the post season (and through it).

If he'd lit up the whole season and turned up dead in the post season I'd get it, but this seems pretty clearly to be an injury issue imo.

 

[Goose]

It's a fine premise. And you are also correct to say any team can win or lose despite the odds. However, I do think some players will always drag a team down. He's retired, but Rick Nash is a prime example. Just wait until he gets out of Columbus, they said, and then he did with the same results.

If you can't win with Rick Nash, why didn't he drag Canada away from gold in both Olympics he was a part of?

Also, his Rangers went to the cup finals, where they lost 4-1 yeah, but other than Game 3, they were all one goal games, with 5 periods of OT in the series. Anyone could have come out on top in those games, it's not difficult at all to imagine a world where the Rangers won that cup.

There are tons of good players who didn't win a cup. When you play 16 seasons in a 32 team league, its a coinflip statistically if you win a cup in your career.

Agreed completely Nash is a playoff/clutch underperformer, but I don't believe for a second it means that that single player is capable for dragging an entire team down, making them unwinnable.

Once again, only exception is goalie. If you have a goalie who mentally collapses and can't sort himself out, giving up horrible goal after horrible goal, no chance you're winning a cup.

 

[Silky Johnson]

As much as I don’t like it Edmonton seems to have a solid chance at winning with Nurse lol.

It's all relative to utilisation.

Nurse is in the 3/4 slot on Edmonton. He can be sheltered there.

Marner with his cap hit is a problem now, but going into UFA as a rental depth player on a contender might turn into a difference making asset in the playoffs

None of the players on the OP's list are bad players. They are just overpayed vs playoff performance.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Matthews
Marner
Tavares
Rielly

They play for respect in the handshake line, not for the win.

Erik Karlsson and Brent Burns are career losers.

The buffalo sabres organization. They used to be one of my favorite teams, now I'd be less surprised if they relocated or folded then made the playoffs.



Dahlin will request out of buffalo in a year or two then go on to have a great career.

Karlsson just played on not great teams.

In 2017 he was an OT goal away from dragging the Sens, on one foot, to the finals.

He was also good in 2019 conference final run in SJ.

He has 53 points in 67 career playoff games. That puts him in the top 12 defencemen in all playoff P/GP

 

[LuGBuG]

It's all relative to utilisation.

Nurse is in the 3/4 slot on Edmonton. He can be sheltered there.

Marner with his cap hit is a problem now, but going into UFA as a rental depth player on a contender might turn into a difference making asset in the playoffs

None of the players on the OP's list are bad players. They are just overpayed vs playoff performance.

So then you can win with them and this thread is irrelevant

 

[Astyanax]

Not

I actually disagree. He was a winner in Jr's. He's made the playoffs a handful of times, and he didn't do bad when he was there. The lack of making the playoffs isn't on one player, and the vancouver teams he lead were not well rounded teams, nor well coached, or well put together for that matter. Besides his contract demands, he's someone I'd want on my team in crunch time. Just my opinion

Not a hill I'm willing to die on, but also not a player I would s**t on, due to lack of total experience. So??

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I know Marner is the Leafs current scapegoat right now, and he has said some dubious things that belie is immaturity. But no, I would not have him at the top of this list. Tavares is clearly the one player you cannot win with. 2 playoff series wins in a 15 pro career is beyond bad, also Matthews has not distinguished himself by his playoff performances. But for me it is a clear win in this poll that you cannot win with Tavares as a core player. Maybe he can find a role on the bottom 6 and win a cup off the coattails of a star core, but certainly not as a core player for sure.

 

[Astyanax]

If you can't win with Rick Nash, why didn't he drag Canada away from gold in both Olympics he was a part of?

Also, his Rangers went to the cup finals, where they lost 4-1 yeah, but other than Game 3, they were all one goal games, with 5 periods of OT in the series. Anyone could have come out on top in those games, it's not difficult at all to imagine a world where the Rangers won that cup.

There are tons of good players who didn't win a cup. When you play 16 seasons in a 32 team league, its a coinflip statistically if you win a cup in your career.

Agreed completely Nash is a playoff/clutch underperformer, but I don't believe for a second it means that that single player is capable for dragging an entire team down, making them unwinnable.

Once again, only exception is goalie. If you have a goalie who mentally collapses and can't sort himself out, giving up horrible goal after horrible goal, no chance you're winning a cup.

Ok, you got me he scored 5 pts in 7 games in 2010 Olympics. Criminal how he wasn’t voted top player on a stacked team. Oh and the 1 pt he scored on his 2nd medal team. 2014 couldn't win it without him.(ok again they did, but.....) I'm looking at 18 goals in 90 playoff games, with little else to offer. Zero cups and he was supposed put the rangers over the top. Sure, the series was closer then it should have been, but dear god not because of nash.
Are serious???

 

[robertmac43]

Skinner not playing a playoff game is a tough look...Seems like a nice go though.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Kessel was such a complimentary piece in Pittsburgh that he led the team in goals and points during their 2016 cup win, getting robbed of the Conn Smythe.

From the 3rd line. Kessel was, at best, the 4th best player on the Penguins at the time. That's not being the focal point of a team. Still part of the core, but a complimentary part of the core.

It's a fine premise. And you are also correct to say any team can win or lose despite the odds. However, I do think some players will always drag a team down. He's retired, but Rick Nash is a prime example. Just wait until he gets out of Columbus, they said, and then he did with the same results.

He was also declining when he left Columbus. It isn't his fault that CBJ couldn't put decent players around him for his tenure there. Who was his best linemate? David Vyborny?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

From the 3rd line. Kessel was, at best, the 4th best player on the Penguins at the time. That's not being the focal point of a team. Still part of the core, but a complimentary part of the core.


He was also declining when he left Columbus. It isn't his fault that CBJ couldn't put decent players around him for his tenure there. Who was his best linemate? David Vyborny?

He was absolutely a "main player" on that team, not at all complimentary. He drove his own line, how is that complimentary?

 

[ManofSteel55]

He was absolutely a "main player" on that team, not at all complimentary. He drove his own line, how is that complimentary?

In the context of this discussion, which is "Was Kessel good enough to lead a team to a cup", he was absolutely not the leader of the teams he won on. He was a secondary piece that added to the depth, but if he was the focal point of those teams, they don't win. On the Pens, everyone but Sid and Malkin were complimentary pieces. And maybe Letang.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

In the context of this discussion, which is "Was Kessel good enough to lead a team to a cup", he was absolutely not the leader of the teams he won on. He was a secondary piece that added to the depth, but if he was the focal point of those teams, they don't win. On the Pens, everyone but Sid and Malkin were complimentary pieces. And maybe Letang.

That's not the question though, he indisputably was a core piece of those cup teams.. Without Kessel, they don't win those cups.

 

[AvStock]

Uh? Guentzel has a Cup and lead the playoffs in goal scoring during that run.

Unlike a lot of highly paid guys on that list, he actually produces in the playoffs.

That was a mistake he shouldn’t be on the list

 

[ManofSteel55]

That's not the question though, he indisputably was a core piece of those cup teams.. Without Kessel, they don't win those cups.

Then you are asking the wrong question. There isn't a decent player in the NHL who isn't good enough to win a cup. There are players who aren't good enough to win the cup in the role they are thrust into, like Kessel in Toronto - he wasn't good enough to be the core pieces that led that team to the cup, but he was absolutely good enough to be the #3/4/5 - an complimentary piece to the two superstars leading the team.

 

[DitchMarner]

I don't think there's any player you absolutely cannot win with under any circumstances.

It's more a question of players who aren't good enough to win the Cup as the main guys or top two to three players on a team. Some players' names have been listed repeatedly in this thread. The perception of those players is teams can't win with them as core pieces. In some cases, that perception is fair based on how they've performed in the playoffs over the years.

But who's to say one or more of these guys couldn't be an important part of a Cup winner under different circumstances?

 

[M88K]

a list without
Pavelski, Suter and Duchene
seems incomplete.

 

[AvStock]

Is that why he's god tier in that playoffs? 67 points in 69 games, damn nearly set the rookie playoffs scoring record and had a legit case for Conn Smythe, and just about a goal a game in the cup finals? Yeah cant win with him.

That was a mistake he shouldn’t be on the list

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Then you are asking the wrong question. There isn't a decent player in the NHL who isn't good enough to win a cup. There are players who aren't good enough to win the cup in the role they are thrust into, like Kessel in Toronto - he wasn't good enough to be the core pieces that led that team to the cup, but he was absolutely good enough to be the #3/4/5 - an complimentary piece to the two superstars leading the team.

There are TONS of players that couldn't step in and lead that Pens team in scoring like Phil did.

 

[Silky Johnson]

So then you can win with them and this thread is irrelevant

That's what I was getting at. There are plausible situations where all of them are net positive players on a SC winning teams - even when considering salary/contract.

Moreover teams can still win the cup with net negative players.

 

[Goose]

Ok, you got me he scored 5 pts in 7 games in 2010 Olympics. Criminal how he wasn’t voted top player on a stacked team. Oh and the 1 pt he scored on his 2nd medal team. 2014 couldn't win it without him.(ok again they did, but.....) I'm looking at 18 goals in 90 playoff games, with little else to offer. Zero cups and he was supposed put the rangers over the top. Sure, the series was closer then it should have been, but dear god not because of nash.
Are serious???

If your argument is that he underscores and may be a drag, I agree.

If your argument, like the OP premise, is that you “can’t win with him”, that’s patently false.

 

[Kegs]

Joe Pavelski

 

[NVious]

I know Marner is the Leafs current scapegoat right now, and he has said some dubious things that belie is immaturity. But no, I would not have him at the top of this list. Tavares is clearly the one player you cannot win with. 2 playoff series wins in a 15 pro career is beyond bad, also Matthews has not distinguished himself by his playoff performances. But for me it is a clear win in this poll that you cannot win with Tavares as a core player. Maybe he can find a role on the bottom 6 and win a cup off the coattails of a star core, but certainly not as a core player for sure.

I think he has earned it.

8 years, 1 2nd round playoff appearance (if you can really even call it that).
Goes from 12th in p/60 in the season to 45th in the playoffs
From 102nd g/60 in the season to 205th in the playoffs

He has the 12th highest salary and basically performs like a decent 2nd liner

 

[Gorskyontario]

He has 53 points in 67 career playoff games. That puts him in the top 12 defencemen in all playoff P/GP

That's not very impressive considering he basically doesn't play defense.