Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid: Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions

[freakydallas13]

Fire Tortorella and everyone who thought bringing him in would be a good idea. Problem solved.

It's the perfect litmus test for who to keep after the current regime crashes and burns. Show them a picture of Torts and ask them to tell you what they think of Torts.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's the perfect litmus test for who to keep after the current regime crashes and burns. Show them a picture of Torts and ask them to tell you what they think of Torts.

Follow up with a pic of Deslauriers to be certain.

 

[Lord Defect]

Follow up with a pic of Deslauriers to be certain.

Then one of Hayes

 

[BillDineen]

I really don;t believe any word out of his mouth, but Anthony diMarco on the O&B podcast said Frost was looking for 3.5m this summer ("contentious contract negotiation") and the Flyers tried to shop him but couldn't get takers for what they thought he was worth.

Also said the bad blood with the agent may have bled into how long Frost sat.

 

[deadhead]

$3.5M? That sounds like a bit of a reach.

 

[VladDrag]

I really believe any word out of his mouth, but Anthony diMarco on the O&B podcast said Frost was looking for 3.5m this summer ("contentious contract negotiation") and the Flyers tried to shop him but couldn't get takers for what they thought he was worth.

Also said the bad blood with the agent may have bled into how long Frost sat.

I don’t believe much of diMarco, either, so I will start with that.

However if that’s true, that they couldn’t find the right deal this summer and are looking to trade Frost, I don’t think they realized that sitting him for 6 straight games lowered his value further. You are basically telling the rest of the NHL that he’s not in your plans long term. Again, I don’t know how true it is, but if fits the Flyers historical operating process of devaluing players.

 

[deadhead]

I don’t believe much of diMarco, either, so I will start with that.

However if that’s true, that they couldn’t find the right deal this summer and are looking to trade Frost, I don’t think they realized that sitting him for 6 straight games lowered his value further. You are basically telling the rest of the NHL that he’s not in your plans long term. Again, I don’t know how true it is, but if fits the Flyers historical operating process of devaluing players.

I'm not sure "devaluing" players really happens, unless the player has issues that other teams feel will emerge in the new destination. Dubois forced two trades and got full value. The team trading for a player is usually optimistic they can make it work.

Flyers are in no hurry to move Frost, so he'll have plenty of time to confirm that last season wasn't a fluke. The agent could be a bigger problem, the new team would want to negotiate a long-term deal if they give up real assets.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I really don;t believe any word out of his mouth, but Anthony diMarco on the O&B podcast said Frost was looking for 3.5m this summer ("contentious contract negotiation") and the Flyers tried to shop him but couldn't get takers for what they thought he was worth.

Also said the bad blood with the agent may have bled into how long Frost sat.

If this is true then they Flyers are as dumb as they were with Fletcher.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm not sure "devaluing" players really happens, unless the player has issues that other teams feel will emerge in the new destination. Dubois forced two trades and got full value. The team trading for a player is usually optimistic they can make it work.

Flyers are in no hurry to move Frost, so he'll have plenty of time to confirm that last season wasn't a fluke. The agent could be a bigger problem, the new team would want to negotiate a long-term deal if they give up real assets.

Of course devaluing players happens. We've watched it play out. The only reason you don't believe in this basic and obvious concept is your need to defend Tortorella and management. If Tortorella claimed the moon is made of yellow Jello, you would believe it.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Wouldn’t be surprising if they were that foolish and petty. If it’s true, of course.
So just gonna go ahead and assume the worst about Flyers brass

 

[Curufinwe]

Of course devaluing players happens. We've watched it play out. The only reason you don't believe in this basic and obvious concept is your need to defend Tortorella and management. If Tortorella claimed the moon is made of yellow Jello, you would believe it.

That's more believable than his claim that he didn't know Sanheim was from Calgary.

 

[Flyerfan18]

That's more believable than his claim that he didn't know Sanheim was from Calgary.

Well could be because he isn’t from Calgary. He’s from Elkhorn, Mb. Not even the right Province.

He played Junior there sure and being one of the closest cities to home he had lots of family there.

Whether you want to admit it or not Sanheim looks more like a hockey player this year. He’s still prone to some brain dead moments but he’s bulked up. Guess Torts does know what he’s doing. I know many could never admit this.

 

[pooch]

Why would/should the coach care about contract negotiations and punishing a player over it?

 

[Audible Velvet]

Why would/should the coach care about contract negotiations and punishing a player over it?

Probably because he’s an egomaniac given influence way beyond what his position should wield

 

[VladDrag]

I'm not sure "devaluing" players really happens, unless the player has issues that other teams feel will emerge in the new destination. Dubois forced two trades and got full value. The team trading for a player is usually optimistic they can make it work.

Flyers are in no hurry to move Frost, so he'll have plenty of time to confirm that last season wasn't a fluke. The agent could be a bigger problem, the new team would want to negotiate a long-term deal if they give up real assets.

Again, I'll start out by saying I have no idea if the flyers tried to move Frost, and in general, I have no idea if DiMarco is telling the truth. Even if we believe this to be true, I don't think we know the value for which the Flyers were asking for Frost. Where they asking for a multiple picks, a 1st rounder, an A+ prospect? So this conversation is very much a conceptual conversation (which goes along with your first paragraph).

By not playing Frost, the Flyers are basically showing their hand. If Frost was perceived as valuable as Brink, or Foerster (for example), he would play as much as those players**. So sure, I can agree that sitting Frost might not reduce other team's perception of Frost's on-ice impact or future potential; however, it illuminates the Flyers internal value of Frost, which isn't high. Therefore, sitting Frost weakens their negotiation position, because it gives other teams the insight into the Flyers evaluations. This isn't a problem if they just want to get a deal done, but it is a problem when you're trying to extract the most value out of a negotiation. You know just as I do, negotiations are not about always about value of the asset. It's about a perceived value from all parties. If other teams know the Flyers don't value Frost, those other teams are not going to offer as much.

**Of course this assumes that there is a normal power hierarchy, which doesn't appear to be. This also is not helpful in negotiations**

When it comes to Dubois, it's not remotely the same type of scenario. Dubois had (basically) two 50 point seasons, and one 60 point season (as a 19, 20 and 21 year old) before asking for a trade. He then put up two 60 point seasons, and asked for another trade. Frost's value is about future potential, and Dubois' value was rooted in previous performance. Teams knew what they were getting when acquiring Dubois.

 

[deadhead]

Again, I'll start out by saying I have no idea if the flyers tried to move Frost, and in general, I have no idea if DiMarco is telling the truth. Even if we believe this to be true, I don't think we know the value for which the Flyers were asking for Frost. Where they asking for a multiple picks, a 1st rounder, an A+ prospect? So this conversation is very much a conceptual conversation (which goes along with your first paragraph).

By not playing Frost, the Flyers are basically showing their hand. If Frost was perceived as valuable as Brink, or Foerster (for example), he would play as much as those players**. So sure, I can agree that sitting Frost might not reduce other team's perception of Frost's on-ice impact or future potential; however, it illuminates the Flyers internal value of Frost, which isn't high. Therefore, sitting Frost weakens their negotiation position, because it gives other teams the insight into the Flyers evaluations. This isn't a problem if they just want to get a deal done, but it is a problem when you're trying to extract the most value out of a negotiation. You know just as I do, negotiations are not about always about value of the asset. It's about a perceived value from all parties. If other teams know the Flyers don't value Frost, those other teams are not going to offer as much.

**Of course this assumes that there is a normal power hierarchy, which doesn't appear to be. This also is not helpful in negotiations**

When it comes to Dubois, it's not remotely the same type of scenario. Dubois had (basically) two 50 point seasons, and one 60 point season (as a 19, 20 and 21 year old) before asking for a trade. He then put up two 60 point seasons, and asked for another trade. Frost's value is about future potential, and Dubois' value was rooted in previous performance. Teams knew what they were getting when acquiring Dubois.

Frost is 24, "future potential" stops being an issue by 25. Team will look at last season and this season, and judge him by his current play - he may be more productive in a bigger role, but he's unlikely to get bigger or faster at this point in his career.

And players get benched all the time for different reasons, teams will judge him by how he responds, not by the benching.

Since Briere has zero pressure to do anything (compare to Morey with Harden), teams know they can't push him to sell at a discount, b/c Frost is under contract, the Flyers are not trying to win now, and Briere has job security.

There is zero evidence that Briere has offered Frost, some teams may have called inquiring about him but the fact they got the cold shoulder says the Flyers are not interested unless "someone makes them an offer they can't refuse."

 

[Cody Webster]

$3.5M? That sounds like a bit of a reach.

No different than Troy Terry asking for $8M from the Ducks. Do you really think the player is going to low ball themselves, of course not. They are obviously going to ask more than what they are worth just like the team is going to come in with an offer lower than what the player is actually worth

 

[deadhead]

No different than Troy Terry asking for $8M from the Ducks. Do you really think the player is going to low ball themselves, of course not. They are obviously going to ask more than what they are worth just like the team is going to come in with an offer lower than what the player is actually worth

Which is why it has no impact on how they view him UNLESS the agent is unusually intransigent, signaling that if Frost has a breakout season, it'll be difficult to sign him to a reasonable extension - in which case the optimal strategy is to trade "high" after a breakout season and let another team overpay.

 

[PDX Flyer]

“devaluing doesn’t occur”

Flyers misuse Ghost to the point they have to PAY a 2nd and 7th to move him

Phoenix plays him to his strengths and flips him for a 3rd

Checks out

 

[deadhead]

“devaluing doesn’t occur”

Flyers misuse Ghost to the point they have to PAY a 2nd and 7th to move him

Phoenix plays him to his strengths and flips him for a 3rd

Checks out

That simply isn't true, cap space was at such a premium that you had to pay to dump it, even with decent players. Flyers put Ghost on waivers no takers, they made Voracek and JVR available in the ED, no takers. Look what other teams paid to dump salaries at that time.

The league had a pretty good idea of Ghost's strengths and weaknesses, after a series of injuries, he wasn't the same player as 2017-18. 2yrs at $4.5M was too rich for that market.

 

[VladDrag]

Frost is 24, "future potential" stops being an issue by 25. Team will look at last season and this season, and judge him by his current play - he may be more productive in a bigger role, but he's unlikely to get bigger or faster at this point in his career.

And players get benched all the time for different reasons, teams will judge him by how he responds, not by the benching.

Since Briere has zero pressure to do anything (compare to Morey with Harden), teams know they can't push him to sell at a discount, b/c Frost is under contract, the Flyers are not trying to win now, and Briere has job security.

There is zero evidence that Briere has offered Frost, some teams may have called inquiring about him but the fact they got the cold shoulder says the Flyers are not interested unless "someone makes them an offer they can't refuse."

We're have two different conversations here, deady.

Again, I would completely agree with you about how other teams might evaluate Frost's on ice impact, but this is only part of the equation when it comes to negotiation. It's not only how much do I value asset X, it's how much do you value asset X.

I'd also agree that young players get benched all the time. But find me a player like Frost (100 point D+1,+2 CHL seasons), who lead their team in ES scoring the year before, who lead the team in preseason scoring and was one of the best forwards visually during that time, who had shown growth over the previous season once opportunity was given to him, who was benched for two rookies who don't even play the same position, while the team in question has a lack of positional depth, that had been benched for 6 straight games, after only 2 regular season games.

That just doesn't happen. The situation started receiving national media attention. There is a reason for that. It's not like every team has this type of situation. Now, they didn't let it go too long, but rest assured that if Frost is benched for a long period again, it will.

I also agree, I don't know if Frost was offered or if teams called inquiring about him.

 

[PDX Flyer]

That simply isn't true, cap space was at such a premium that you had to pay to dump it, even with decent players. Flyers put Ghost on waivers no takers, they made Voracek and JVR available in the ED, no takers. Look what other teams paid to dump salaries at that time.

The league had a pretty good idea of Ghost's strengths and weaknesses, after a series of injuries, he wasn't the same player as 2017-18. 2yrs at $4.5M was too rich for that market.

That is a fair point but doesn’t change the point that The Flyers completely misused him an that effected the market

 

[deadhead]

That is a fair point but doesn’t change the point that The Flyers completely misused him an that effected the market

That's a different issue, once you got into AV's doghouse, there were no second chances.

 

[Audible Velvet]

We're have two different conversations here, deady.

Again, I would completely agree with you about how other teams might evaluate Frost's on ice impact, but this is only part of the equation when it comes to negotiation. It's not only how much do I value asset X, it's how much do you value asset X.

I'd also agree that young players get benched all the time. But find me a player like Frost (100 point D+1,+2 CHL seasons), who lead their team in ES scoring the year before, who lead the team in preseason scoring and was one of the best forwards visually during that time, who had shown growth over the previous season once opportunity was given to him, who was benched for two rookies who don't even play the same position, while the team in question has a lack of positional depth, that had been benched for 6 straight games, after only 2 regular season games.

That just doesn't happen. The situation started receiving national media attention. There is a reason for that. It's not just some every team has this type of situation. Now, they didn't let it go too long, but rest assured that if Frost is benched for a long period again, it will.

I also agree, I don't know if Frost was offered or if teams called inquiring about him.

Wow! So there might actually be some bias at play here?! But how could those men of honor and integrity let this stand?

 

[PDX Flyer]

That's a different issue, once you got into AV's doghouse, there were no second chances.

So the Flyers head coach throws a hissy and wants a player out because he doesn’t know how to use him

The Flyers idiotically make this public

The league knows the Flyers are looking to dump him

But this doesn’t “devalue” Flyers trade leverage.

OK!

You literally proved my point with the AV comment