The Truth about Phil Kessel

[ghostingtaro]

You realize that Phil Kessel didn't even have the best point-per-game pace on the team that season, right?

You look kind of silly saying Phil Kessel was the only offensive threat when Joffrey Lupul, with 67 points in 66 games, produced at a better clip than Phil did.

It's amazing how desperate some Leaf fans are to make every excuse possible for Kessel.

The fans that keep parroting the Kane/Kessel comparison is embarrassing.

They keep regurgitating the same nonsense. To try and pretend that Kane and Kessel are equally inept defensively is essentially announcing that you don't really follow hockey. Several Leaf fans have said if they flipped teams, people would be slagging Kane and praising Kessel. Except Kessel would, of course, barely get any ice time under Joel Quenville, who wouldn't allow a player to simply not play defense and Kane wouldn't get slagged in Toronto because while he's no Selke candidate, he actually tries and hustles in all three zones and takes hits to make plays, etc.

Kane would be hailed as a God in Toronto and if the Leafs had a player as good as him there would be endless threads about him being the best player in the league.

Call a spade a spade. He's an excellent offensive player but a horrible defensive player and you can't win with a first line player that hurts more than he helps. Stop pretending it's the coaches fault or the linemates fault or the situation the teams in. It's Phil's fault.

He is what he is. That's all.

Looked at your location

 

[WarriorofTime]

By putting up WORSE numbers, with better line mates and a pp that includes Toews/Keith/Hossa/Saad/Sharp/Seabrook?

Or by being even with Kessel in the defensive end?

Or by getting almost 70% of his zone starts in the offensive end?

If he "earned" it, Kessel at 8 is underpaid

With 61 points in 82 games to go along with awful defensive play (not even getting into +/-) in year 1 of the deal, Kessel certainly did not show he was "underpaid".

Let's ignore salary for a minute, Kessel isn't in the same ballpark as Kane. He's just a guy who has an extra flair.

 

[FerrisRox]

Right... and that is most likely due to the team around Kessel. Kessel himself had a bad year but had absolutely no insulation. Here are Kane's numbers:

Kane was in on 29% of Chicago's goals this year (64/220)
Kane was in on 26% of Chicago's goals last year (69/261)
Kane was in on 37% of Chicago's goals in 12/13 (55/149)
Kane was in on 27% of Chicago's goals in 11/12 (66/241)

This year there were 9 players who scored 30 or more points, including Kane. 6 above 40 and 4 above 50.
Last year there were 9 players who scored 30 or more points, including Kane. 7 above 40 and 5 above 60!
In 12/13 there were 10 (if my math is correct) players who were on pace for 30 or more points.
In 11/12 there were 9 players who scored 30 or more points, including Kane. 6 over 40 and 4 over 50.

Is this a joke?

Are we supposed to just pretend that Patrick Kane didn't miss seven weeks after a serious injury and surgery?

Are we supposed to not mention that he was the leagues leading scorer at the time of the injury?

You point out that Kane was in on 29 percent of his teams goals but you don't mention that he achieved that despite missing nearly two months of the season?

You gotta be kidding me with this!

 

[The Thin White Duke]

You realize that Phil Kessel didn't even have the best point-per-game pace on the team that season, right?

You look kind of silly saying Phil Kessel was the only offensive threat when Joffrey Lupul, with 67 points in 66 games, produced at a better clip than Phil did.

It's amazing how desperate some Leaf fans are to make every excuse possible for Kessel.

The fans that keep parroting the Kane/Kessel comparison is embarrassing.

They keep regurgitating the same nonsense. To try and pretend that Kane and Kessel are equally inept defensively is essentially announcing that you don't really follow hockey. Several Leaf fans have said if they flipped teams, people would be slagging Kane and praising Kessel. Except Kessel would, of course, barely get any ice time under Joel Quenville, who wouldn't allow a player to simply not play defense and Kane wouldn't get slagged in Toronto because while he's no Selke candidate, he actually tries and hustles in all three zones and takes hits to make plays, etc.

Kane would be hailed as a God in Toronto and if the Leafs had a player as good as him there would be endless threads about him being the best player in the league.

Call a spade a spade. He's an excellent offensive player but a horrible defensive player and you can't win with a first line player that hurts more than he helps. Stop pretending it's the coaches fault or the linemates fault or the situation the teams in. It's Phil's fault.

He is what he is. That's all.

You mean the same Lupul that had a career high 53 points before he benefited from playing with Kessel? Not sure what he has to do with the season that Kessel spent most of his time with Bozak/Crabb either, he was on the ducks at that point..

Kessel line has been the only line worth shutting down since he's been here, save for the one season that Kulemin-Grabo-Mac clicked. I don't know how that's remotely debatable. Nobody's worried about shutting down Winnik-Kadri-Clarkson.

I don't know why I bothered typing all of this, its clear youve made up your mind and won't listen to any objective facts when you said that Quenneville wouldn't play a top-10 scoring Olympic MVP on his team.

 

[FerrisRox]

Name me literally any single top scorer with worse linemates. Just one that's all I want.

Max Paccioretty scored 39 goals last year and 37 goals this year with David Desharnais as his center.

Not only did he have a lousy center and he still scored more goals than Phil both years (and more goals than Phil has ever scored) but he's also an excellent defensive forward. So he managed to score the goals without "cheating" ever. In fact, he's probably the best defensive forward on his team.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I also think it's unfair to say Kessel and Kane are the "same defensively." Kane gives great effort on all ends of the ice and makes a good amount of plays in his own end. Granted he's not Hossa or even Saad by any means, and of course his #1 priority is offense because that's where he excels and helps the team, but he certainly puts in a more consistent effort than I've ever seen from Kessel and defends his position decently.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Max Paccioretty scored 39 goals last year and 37 goals this year with David Desharnais as his center.

Not only did he have a lousy center and he still scored more goals than Phil both years (and more goals than Phil has ever scored) but he's also an excellent defensive forward. So he managed to score the goals without "cheating" ever. In fact, he's probably the best defensive forward on his team.

He has Subban and Markov on the back end and powerplay, Desharnais is at worst a minor step down from Bozak. He still doesn't score as many points as Kessel. His best year is 6 points better than Kessel worst recent year.

 

[FerrisRox]

You mean the same Lupul that had a career high 53 points before he benefited from playing with Kessel? Not sure what he has to do with the season that Kessel spent most of his time with Bozak/Crabb either, he was on the ducks at that point..

So the season that Joey Crabb was Phil Kessel's winger was the year he only played 48 games?

I just assumed the season Crabb played 67 games would be the year Leaf fans were claiming he was Kessel's linemate as yet another excuse.

So, to be clear, Kessel's season with Crabb as his linemate was really more like half a season? So the claim about having Bozak and Crabb as his linemates that season really is, at best, a half truth?

 

[WarriorofTime]

He has Subban and Markov on the back end and powerplay, Desharnais is at worst a minor step down from Bozak. He still doesn't score as many points as Kessel. His best year is 6 points better than Kessel worst recent year.

Kessel is the better playmaker, Patches is the better goal scorer and defensive player. I think it's close.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Kessel is the better playmaker, Patches is the better goal scorer and defensive player. I think it's close.

I'm not disagreeing, Patches has turned into a great player. Suggesting that he has less to work with on his team is just incorrect. There's a reason the two teams finished where they did.

 

[FerrisRox]

He has Subban and Markov on the back end and powerplay, Desharnais is at worst a minor step down from Bozak. He still doesn't score as many points as Kessel. His best year is 6 points better than Kessel worst recent year.

Oh, so you asked for worse linemates, and now you're moving the goal line and pointing out the defenseman he plays with on the powerplay?

I guess, because it's convenient, Cody Franson, Morgan Rielly, Jake Gardiner and Dion Phaneuf are all lousy on the powerplay, right?

 

[The Thin White Duke]

So the season that Joey Crabb was Phil Kessel's winger was the year he only played 48 games?

I just assumed the season Crabb played 67 games would be the year Leaf fans were claiming he was Kessel's linemate as yet another excuse.

So, to be clear, Kessel's season with Crabb as his linemate was really more like half a season? So the claim about having Bozak and Crabb as his linemates that season really is, at best, a half truth?

Man I don't care if Lupul played all 82 games with Phil, I can't understand how you can possibly argue that Phaneuf Bozak Lupul/JVR and whoever picked the short straw to be on the top pairing with Dion is an acceptable supporting cast, especially in comparison to other comparable top scorers.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

With 61 points in 82 games to go along with awful defensive play (not even getting into +/-) in year 1 of the deal, Kessel certainly did not show he was "underpaid".

Let's ignore salary for a minute, Kessel isn't in the same ballpark as Kane. He's just a guy who has an extra flair.

Funny when they played on the same team last year Kessel was quite a bit better, it's almost like one of the plays on a much better team.

Honestly the fact that Kessel is able to produce at the same level makes it pretty clear he's as good as Kane seeing how Toronto has pretty much one threat you have to shutdown so that means he plays against much tougher match-ups.

 

[FerrisRox]

Kessel is the better playmaker, Patches is the better goal scorer and defensive player. I think it's close.

To be fair, we really don't know much about Paccioretty's playmaking abilities yet because he plays on a line with no one that can score at all. He doesn't have the benefit of passing to James Van Riemsdyk or Tyler Bozak who has 18, 19 and 23 goal seasons to his credit.

I think Kessel distributes the puck better, but Patches has certainly never come close to having guys on his line that can pull the trigger at all.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Oh, so you asked for worse linemates, and now you're moving the goal line and pointing out the defenseman he plays with on the powerplay?

I guess, because it's convenient, Cody Franson, Morgan Rielly, Jake Gardiner and Dion Phaneuf are all lousy on the powerplay, right?

Playing with a Norris winner isn't going to impact your point totals? Especially one who is a huge power play presence? Their linemates are comparable, edge to kessel's. The rest of the team isn't really close.

And yes none of those players hold a candle to Subban/Markov offensively right now. Franson was close at times. The rest are 30 point guys today, worse in previous years.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Funny when they played on the same team last year Kessel was quite a bit better, it's almost like one of the plays on a much better team.

Honestly the fact that Kessel is able to produce at the same level makes it pretty clear he's as good as Kane seeing how Toronto has pretty much one threat you have to shutdown so that means he plays against much tougher match-ups.

The Olympics are like 6 games. They have the same stats across two olympics. Neither did anything in the Medal Rounds this past time. Whoever puts up more points against Slovenia in the Round Robin is a bad way to judge players.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I actually think playing on a different team would hurt Kessel's point totals. Not compared to last year's disaster obviously but the years before. The leafs were all offense with no defensive accountability for a guy like Kessel at all. On most other teams, that just wouldn't be the case and he would have to sacrifice a good chunk of offence.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

The Olympics are like 6 games. They have the same stats across two olympics. Neither did anything in the Medal Rounds this past time. Whoever puts up more points against Slovenia in the Round Robin is a bad way to judge players.

Hey if Kane is so good and so clutch he should of out performed measly old Phil Kessel but he didn't.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hey if Kane is so good and so clutch he should of out performed measly old Phil Kessel but he didn't.

I mean, yes, Phil Kessel is capable of out-performing 6 game sample sizes. But I don't think it changes how the two are regarded too much in hockey circles.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I actually think playing on a different team would hurt Kessel's point totals. Not compared to last year's disaster obviously but the years before. The leafs were all offense with no defensive accountability for a guy like Kessel at all. On most other teams, that just wouldn't be the case and he would have to sacrifice a good chunk of offence.

I actually think playing on a different team would hurt Kane's point totals. The Hawks were able to shelter him from the hard competition. On most other teams, that just wouldn't be the case and he would have to sacrifice a good chunk of offence facing the tough matchups.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I actually think playing on a different team would hurt Kane's point totals. The Hawks were able to shelter him from the hard competition. On most other teams, that just wouldn't be the case and he would have to sacrifice a good chunk of offence facing the tough matchups.

Maybe. I think it depends on the team but I think if Kane went to a team without a disastrous powe play that would help. And most teams don't have the luxury of splitting him up from the #1 Center because of a guy like Hossa. I don't really think "2nd Pairs!" is as big a deal in the regular season as people make it out.

 

[FerrisRox]

Playing with a Norris winner isn't going to impact your point totals? Especially one who is a huge power play presence? Their linemates are comparable, edge to kessel's.

James Van Riemsdyk and Tyler Bozak are "comparable" to David Desharnais and P.A. Parenteau or Dale Weise?

How do you say this **** with a straight face?

P.A. Parenteau had less points than Tyler Bozak had goals.

C'mon man, you can't just say ridiculous things and not expect people to call you on it. Just having JVR on his line is a huge, huge advantage, not just over Montreal's lousy first line players but over several teams in the league. You can pretend that poor Phil gets no support, but it's an idiotic argument when he's got a solid offensive player like JVR and a 20-goal center that he has chemistry with.

What you are saying is a joke, and expecting anyone to believe it is absolutely insulting.

Give your head a shake.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Bozak is obviously not a true #1 Center but I'd take him over Brad Richards at this point in their careers and he can shoot the puck decently enough.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

James Van Riemsdyk and Tyler Bozak are "comparable" to David Desharnais and P.A. Parenteau or Dale Weise?

How do you say this **** with a straight face?

P.A. Parenteau had less points than Tyler Bozak had goals.

C'mon man, you can't just say ridiculous things and not expect people to call you on it. Just having JVR on his line is a huge, huge advantage, not just over Montreal's lousy first line players but over several teams in the league. You can pretend that poor Phil gets no support, but it's an idiotic argument when he's got a solid offensive player like JVR and a 20-goal center that he has chemistry with.

What you are saying is a joke, and expecting anyone to believe it is absolutely insulting.

Give your head a shake.

Have you seen Bozaks stats with and without Kessel? He's at best a 3rd liner and even that might be generous. I don't understand how JVR leeches off Kessel when its time to slag on him, but is also an elite linemates when you need to use him against Kessel.

While we're here Pacioretty spent 47.5% of his minutes with Plekanec and Ghallager lmao. Parenteau had 5.7% of his minutes with pacioretty. Any other "facts" you want to blatantly make up? Edit: that was for the playoffs, reg season pacioretty spent 17% of his time with Desharnais+Parenteau.



Tyler Bozak would be a 1st line C on exactly 0 teams in this league outside of Toronto. JvR is a good complementary piece, but again he would be the 2nd best offensive player on maybe 3 teams outside of Toronto.

Stop embarrassing yourself and quit while youre ahead.

 

[IdontSpitOnTheIce]

To be fair, we really don't know much about Paccioretty's playmaking abilities yet because he plays on a line with no one that can score at all. He doesn't have the benefit of passing to James Van Riemsdyk or Tyler Bozak who has 18, 19 and 23 goal seasons to his credit.

I think Kessel distributes the puck better, but Patches has certainly never come close to having guys on his line that can pull the trigger at all.

you don't remember when he played 10 games with Galchenyuk ? That's when we saw his playmaking skills