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The Truth about Phil Kessel

  • Thread starter Thread starter Thebolt*
  • Start date Start date
WarriorofTime said:
Watch a hawks game before you comment. Kessel wouldn't be able to float around.

Offensive zone starts and SECOND PAIRS!!! have to be the most overblown thing ever. Kessel is a 60 point player when he plays with poor linemates. And that's with being the biggest floater in the league.
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You have shown nothing logical to back up your position. And you show your lack of knowledge about the Leafs in general when you say he's a "60 point player when he plays with poor linemates." So are you judging him based off of a bad half-season when Horachek took over? What about his 214 points in 212 games prior to that? You are judging him based off of his worst 40 games in the last 5 years? Yeah doesn't work that way buddy.

Meanwhile, you've done nothing to show why "OZ starts and second pairs are overblown." Guess what buddy, starting a shift in the offensive zone results in a goal WAY MORE than starting one in the defensive zone. Oh, and the difference between facing Doughty or Voynov and Josi/Weber or Ekholm/Jones just ain't that big of a difference eh? I seriously beg to ****ing differ.
 
FerrisRox said:
Is this a joke?

Are we supposed to just pretend that Patrick Kane didn't miss seven weeks after a serious injury and surgery?

Are we supposed to not mention that he was the leagues leading scorer at the time of the injury?

You point out that Kane was in on 29 percent of his teams goals but you don't mention that he achieved that despite missing nearly two months of the season?

You gotta be kidding me with this!
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And what's the excuse for the rest of the years? Is it a detriment to Phil Kessel's abilities that he doesn't miss games due to injuries?
 
Donny Bomby said:
Except Phil has outscored Kane in every year since coming to the Leafs besides his first year and the shortened lock-out year :)
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Phil Kessel: 339 points in 376 games (0.902 points per game)
Patrick Kane: 374 points in 373 games (1.003 points per game)

Kessel has managed to stay healthier, and thus posted some higher individual season totals, but has not outscored Kane over the time.
 
Leafswillrulesometim said:
You have shown nothing logical to back up your position. And you show your lack of knowledge about the Leafs in general when you say he's a "60 point player when he plays with poor linemates." So are you judging him based off of a bad half-season when Horachek took over? What about his 214 points in 212 games prior to that? You are judging him based off of his worst 40 games in the last 5 years? Yeah doesn't work that way buddy.

Meanwhile, you've done nothing to show why "OZ starts and second pairs are overblown." Guess what buddy, starting a shift in the offensive zone results in a goal WAY MORE than starting one in the defensive zone. Oh, and the difference between facing Doughty or Voynov and Josi/Weber or Ekholm/Jones just ain't that big of a difference eh? I seriously beg to ****ing differ.
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I'm not your buddy, guy.
 
Red flag for any team in the bottom 10 trading for Kessel is the way he mailed it in for two-thirds of the season this year. Sure, the Leafs were a gong-show and you can make excuses for him - but most of those other bottom 10 teams were also incredibly disfunctional. If he stopped trying on a bad team - why would any other 'projected' bad team want to add him - as if I'm GM, and I don't think I have a playoff calibre team, I'm concerned he's going to give up half way through the season again because we aren't winning or he doesn't like our coach or - whatever.

I think Toronto best hold onto him, hope he puts up more than 25 goals and 61 points next year, shows up for the whole season and looks engaged - or he's staying with the Buds for awhile.
 
Last time a Kane v. Kessel poll was made it was closed for being too lopsided. There's a reason Phil "61 points" Kessel is on the trade block. You guys are delusional about this thing if you think Kessel is better.
 
WarriorofTime said:
Last time a Kane v. Kessel poll was made it was closed for being too lopsided. There's a reason Phil "61 points" Kessel is on the trade block. You guys are delusional about this thing if you think Kessel is better.
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No one thinks he's better or said anything to that effect. Kane is better than Kessel but not by a huge amount. All anyone is saying is that when you compare their situations, Kane is in a MUCH more favorable one for an offersive winger than Kessel, so comparing stats and team success directly is useless.

Would you disagree that Kessel would look better if Towes-Sharp-Hossa was on the Leafs to take the hard match ups and had Keith feeding him the puck.
 
If the sport didn't have to be played and we could just speculate, Kessel would be a god.

Just as accomplished as Kane.

But on the ice Kane is fearless and has more subleteties to his game that benefits a team.

That's not to say that Kane dosent benefit from having great teammates though.

It's a mutually beneficial partnership.
 
I wouldn't say Kessel = Kane, but I can tell you for damn sure Kane would have a much, much worse reputation if he had played for Toronto all these years compared to the reputation he has now.
 
I remember before the draft, Kane was not considered a very good #1 overall draft pick.

But now he is.

At some point you have to credit the player for the circumstances he finds himself in.
 
The Thin White Duke said:
No one thinks he's better or said anything to that effect. Kane is better than Kessel but not by a huge amount. All anyone is saying is that when you compare their situations, Kane is in a MUCH more favorable one for an offersive winger than Kessel, so comparing stats and team success directly is useless.

Would you disagree that Kessel would look better if Towes-Sharp-Hossa was on the Leafs to take the hard match ups and had Keith feeding him the puck.
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I have no idea how people find this so hard to understand.

It takes a seriously talented player to put up 214 points in 212 games playing with Tyler Bozak and Lupul/JVR facing team's top defensive units night in and night out. Oh, and it doesn't really help when your team's best defensemen are Phaneuf, Franson and Gunnarrson. They can't even hold a candle to Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarrson.

Taylor Hall is another victim of these type of comparisons. An immensely talented scoring winger who is stuck on a terrible team (hopefully that changes for Edmonton this year) and thus never gets the respect he deserves.

And WarriorofTime already answered your last paragraph. He says that "2nd pairings and offensive zone starts are way overblown" despite providing absolutely nothing to back it up.
 
What stats do you have that show "2nd pairs' in the regular season has a bigger effect than playing with bad linemates? I think being "the guy" on your team leads to more points. Somebody has to put up points.
 
WarriorofTime said:
What stats do you have that show "2nd pairs' in the regular season has a bigger effect than playing with bad linemates? I think being "the guy" on your team leads to more points. Somebody has to put up points.
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So why doesn't Towes regularly outscore Kane? I mean he's 'the guy" right? He even has vastly better linemates.
 
WarriorofTime said:
What stats do you have that show "2nd pairs' in the regular season has a bigger effect than playing with bad linemates? I think being "the guy" on your team leads to more points. Somebody has to put up points.
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Make zero mistake about it, there is no offensive winger in the league who is in a better spot than Kane to produce offense. He has an elite two-way line playing in front of him and a premium shutdown 4th line to even cover the scraps.

You haven't provided ANYTHING logical to say otherwise. Abstract cliches like "being the guy" leads to more points does not qualify as anything valid.

Why in the hell would you need any stats to show you? Does the difference between Doughty/Voynov or Weber/Jones not make things clear enough for you?

But yes, we got stats to show.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...13+14+15+16+63+67+57+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66#

Look at Patty Kane being 14th on that list. When 4th line players are ahead of you in QoC that is the very definition of sheltered.
 
For the record, I'm not trying to discredit Kane of anything. He's an incredible player who has clearly contributed majorly to the Hawks success.

What I am showing here is that how being on 2 different teams can severely impact very similar wingers (Kane and Kessel). You're crazy if you don't think it can make a huge difference.
 
Leafswillrulesometim said:
For the record, I'm not trying to discredit Kane of anything. He's an incredible player who has clearly contributed majorly to the Hawks success.

What I am showing here is that how being on 2 different teams can severely impact very similar wingers (Kane and Kessel). You're crazy if you don't think it can make a huge difference.
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Really? Discrediting is all you've done.
 
The Thin White Duke said:
State facts about Kanes usage and you're discrediting him, blindly say that Quenneville wouldn't even play Kessel and that's fine. And somehow Leaf fans are the unreasonable ones in all of this.

Never change HF.
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I go back to the original question, do you legitimately think any GM would take Kessel over Kane?
 
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