The Truth about Phil Kessel

[The Thin White Duke]

I go back to the original question, do you legitimately think any GM would take Kessel over Kane?

A few would purely because they can't afford 10.5m.

Kane > Kessel, nobody is disagreeing with this. It's not a huge difference but its there.

Its you that keeps dancing around every fact that shows they're comparable players being used completely differently. But please, bring on your next question that has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[WarriorofTime]

A few would purely because they can't afford 10.5m.

Kane > Kessel, nobody is disagreeing with this. It's not a huge difference but its there.

Its you that keeps dancing around every fact that shows they're comparable players being used completely differently. But please, bring on your next question that has nothing to do with the discussion.

So you agree with the basic premise and are arguing just to argue?

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I go back to the original question, do you legitimately think any GM would take Kessel over Kane?

I think if Kane and Kessel had exact contracts Kane would be taken over Kessel just because of their situations.

However I'd probably take Kessel over Kane just because I can save 2.5 m

 

[Purity*]

So you agree with the basic premise and are arguing just to argue?

Ah yes, the famed Kane-Toews-Hossa line.

This is where I started arguing with you.

You have no problem throwing around how he "carries a line of scrubs" yet you seem to have some serious problems when I say how sheltered he is. You then call Kessel a "60 point player" and once again utterly ignore some crucial context that shows completely otherwise.

Kane is sheltered, Kessel's not. Kessel has STILL produced comparable numbers with him and has even out-produced him in several seasons. Kane plays on an astronomically better team that you seem to brush off by saying "Versteeg and Richards."

You have failed to include any logical basis in why Kessel and Kane aren't comparable players. To me, they are as comparable as Toews and Kopitar. I've shown some very valid points as to how they are so comparable with logical points to back it up.

Seriously, why are "2nd/3rd pairings and offensive zone starts" overblown? Scoring happens WAY more often when a shift starts in the offensive zone and players like Doughty/Weber/Pietrangelo are on a whole other level than Voynov, Jones (at the moment), Shattenkirk defensively.

I will say it again. You are crazy if you don't think Kessel's production would increase sizeably if he got 60-70% offensive zone starts against secondary/third defensive units. There is no other winger in the league who is put in a better position to produce than Kane.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

This is where I started arguing with you.

You have no problem throwing around how he "carries a line of scrubs" yet you seem to have some serious problems when I say how sheltered he is. You then call Kessel a "60 point player" and once again utterly ignore some crucial context that shows completely otherwise.

Kane is sheltered, Kessel's not. Kessel has STILL produced comparable numbers with him and has even out-produced him in several seasons. Kane plays on an astronomically better team that you seem to brush off by saying "Versteeg and Richards."

You have failed to include any logical basis in why Kessel and Kane aren't comparable players. To me, they are as comparable as Toews and Kopitar. I've shown some very valid points as to how they are so comparable with logical points to back it up.

Seriously, why are "2nd/3rd pairings and offensive zone starts" overblown? Scoring happens WAY more often when a shift starts in the offensive zone and players like Doughty/Weber/Pietrangelo are on a whole other level than Voynov, Jones (at the moment), Shattenkirk defensively.

I will say it again. You are crazy if you don't think Kessel's production would increase sizeably if he got 60-70% offensive zone starts against secondary/third defensive units.

There's no point, people have their minds made up. We're a page away from coming back to "are you saying a GM would take Kessel over Kane????". Somehow Kessel alone is responsible for us not making the playoffs, but we also have a bottom 10 defense and offense if the conversation shifts to them.

JvR and Bozak are at the same time " great" offensive pieces that raise Kessels numbers but also not worth much in a trade because they only get their points cause of Kessel.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is where I started arguing with you.

You have no problem throwing around how he "carries a line of scrubs" yet you seem to have some serious problems when I say how sheltered he is. You then call Kessel a "60 point player" and once again utterly ignore some crucial context that shows completely otherwise.

Kane is sheltered, Kessel's not. Kessel has STILL produced comparable numbers with him and has even out-produced him in several seasons. Kane plays on an astronomically better team that you seem to brush off by saying "Versteeg and Richards."

You have failed to include any logical basis in why Kessel and Kane aren't comparable players. To me, they are as comparable as Toews and Kopitar. I've shown some very valid points as to how they are so comparable with logical points to back it up.

Seriously, why are "2nd/3rd pairings and offensive zone starts" overblown? Scoring happens WAY more often when a shift starts in the offensive zone and players like Doughty/Weber/Pietrangelo are on a whole other level than Voynov, Jones (at the moment), Shattenkirk defensively.

I will say it again. You are crazy if you don't think Kessel's production would increase sizeably if he got 60-70% offensive zone starts against secondary/third defensive units. There is no other winger in the league who is put in a better position to produce than Kane.

Neither of us know what would happen so we can only look as is. Kane has had the much more accomplished career. Maybe if Kessel goes to a new team we'll see how it goes. I wish him the best.

 

[Purity*]

Neither of us know what would happen so we can only look as is. Kane has had the much more accomplished career. Maybe if Kessel goes to a new team we'll see how it goes. I wish him the best.

Seems like you resort to a whole difference stance after being presented with facts that debunk your opinion on Kessel.

And then in the very next breath you will slander Kessel with comments like this

Watch a hawks game before you comment. Kessel wouldn't be able to float around.

Offensive zone starts and SECOND PAIRS!!! have to be the most overblown thing ever. Kessel is a 60 point player when he plays with poor linemates. And that's with being the biggest floater in the league.

 

[Nithoniniel]

And more defensive responsibility. It's rarely that simple.

The guy playing more sheltered minutes in the same position has more defensive responsibility? Do you mean due to system? Because while Chicago is a much more responsible team, I haven't really seen a big systematic difference in how the wingers behave.

Regardless, we're talking about increasingly small factors when there is an overwhelming case for an increase in totals for Kessel. Which is of course just a case of likelihood, nobody knows what would happen in a change of context like that.

Watch a hawks game before you comment. Kessel wouldn't be able to float around.

Offensive zone starts and SECOND PAIRS!!! have to be the most overblown thing ever. Kessel is a 60 point player when he plays with poor linemates. And that's with being the biggest floater in the league.

I'd like to know what you base this on. Quality of competition is for sure overblown by some, but zone starts is really not. There is a ton of data that support it being a big factor, so I'd like to know what you base a differing opinion on?

I'd advice anyone not to base their opinion on individual players on the Leafs on this season. Not because of this discussion, not trying to win a point here. I just really believe that the circumstances turned so extreme that the whole team just dragged the individual pieces down.

There's also no reason for hyperbole. He's a floater, but not the worst in the league.

 

[SenatorArmy*]

As talented as kessel has been offensively it's hard to take it seriously because his team cheated on offense so much in the Carlyle years. Well see If he bounces back next year or two and if he gets a bit better on the defensive side of the puck

 

[The Thin White Duke]

As talented as kessel has been offensively it's hard to take it seriously because his team cheated on offense so much in the Carlyle years. Well see If he bounces back next year or two and if he gets a bit better on the defensive side of the puck

His goal totals have been roughly the same under 4 coaches, 5 if you count the Olympics. I don't know how cheating offensively would raise your assist totals dramatically unless our linemates are cheating with you. If a whole line is cheating, would it not make sense to assume that's just the system they're told to play?

If you watch a highlight reel of his goals in any of the past 4 seasons, maybe 5-6 per year are off the rush (I assume that's what we're talking about as cheating). The vast majority are from slipping into soft spots on the ice or a give and go set play.

 

[DJB]

I'd much rather have Kessel on my team than Bobby Ryan. Kessel is a dynamic offensive forward. A top winger in the NHL. Unfortunately for TO, my guess is he gets dealt at a discount.

 

[Haj]

The truth is that he is a one dimensional hockey player with warts. He is extremely good at that dimension and he needs to play with the right players that make up for his weaknesses.

He is not Anze Kopitar or Toews, where you can just have them play against literally anybody because of how complete their games are.

If I was Toronto, I would not trade him. They won't get a huge return because of his contract. They should just build a better overall team that Kessel can fit into.

 

[X66]

Comparing Kane's situation to Kessel's. This is not to say who is better etc, but rather appreciating what Kessel has to work with.

Kessel has had the harder quality of competition the last few years, and it's actually been a significant difference. To add to that, Kane starts just about 70% of all of his shifts in the offensive zone the last two seasons, and well above 50% the other seasons. Kessel has under 50% combined in his last 3 seasons. No obviously that has a lot to do with the Leafs and Carlyle, but it's a big difference.

Kane has it great in Chicago, and that is full credit to the brass in Chicago. In saying that, I also feel that Kessel in a similar environment would be terrific, and any team that can provide Kessel what the Leafs can't will be thrilled.

I don't buy the Kessel can't buy in thing all that much either.

Kessel was an above 50% possession player in 2 of the 3 years under Wilson. He was an above 50% corsi player under Julien for multiple-years.

It's just under Carlyle that he was really horrible in the possession department, like all Carlyle teams for the last half decade.

Even Getzlaf and Perry had 46% possession stats under Carlyle in his final two years there(same as Kessel).

Carlyle is the worst coach in the NHL, which is why I think people don't have a proper gauge of the players as individuals , which is why I truly believe Kessel will strive on any elite team with a smart coach.

 

[Thebolt*]

I'd much rather have Kessel on my team than Bobby Ryan. Kessel is a dynamic offensive forward. A top winger in the NHL. Unfortunately for TO, my guess is he gets dealt at a discount.

Toronto will aim for the moon but his no trade list will hand cuff them I think.

 

[Mantis]

HFboards pro tip:

Use paragraphs dude. It just makes for an easier read.

This. Im guessing English isn't your first language or you are very young.

 

[UlaTek]

Kessel is a talented player on a bad team. I'd like to see him moved for numerous reasons both for his sake and Toronto's. They both need a change.

 

[ARZ*]

I think hes going to prove everybody wrong this year.