The Truth about Phil Kessel

[FerrisRox]

While we're here Pacioretty spent 47.5% of his minutes with Plekanec and Ghallager lmao. Parenteau had 5.7% of his minutes with pacioretty. Any other "facts" you want to blatantly make up?

You are deep into fantasy land.

Plekanec is not the center for Max. They were often paired in the post-season, but I assure you, much to the chagrin of many Montreal fans, David Desharnais is Max's center for all but a short stretch of the season, and it's been that way for years and even in the American League.

You can pretend it's not true but that doesn't change anything.

It (should) go without saying that P.A. Parenteau, when injured or a healthy scratch, didn't play on the first line. But sadly, when he was in the lineup, he was often slotted in there. So was Dale Weise. So was Brendan Gallagher.

So you think those guys are better offensive options than JVR? You think they're better than Bozak? You think they are "comparable?"

 

[Purity*]

Be honest. How many GM'S do you think would take Phil Kessel on their team over Patrick Kane?

That's an unclever way to dodge my argument. Ever heard of a red herring?

Maybe. I think it depends on the team but I think if Kane went to a team without a disastrous powe play that would help. And most teams don't have the luxury of splitting him up from the #1 Center because of a guy like Hossa. I don't really think "2nd Pairs!" is as big a deal in the regular season as people make it out.

So you don't think the difference between facing Doughty or Voynov or Weber/Josi vs Ekholm/Jones or not being on the ice against centers like Bergeron/Kopitar is worth making an argument with? What about 60-70% offensive zone starts?

I have zero doubt whatsoever that Kessel's point totals would go up sizeably if he was on the Blackhawks. Your kidding yourself if you think they wouldn't.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

You are deep into fantasy land.

Plekanec is not the center for Max. They were often paired in the post-season, but I assure you, much to the chagrin of many Montreal fans, David Desharnais is Max's center for all but a short stretch of the season, and it's been that way for years and even in the American League.

You can pretend it's not true but that doesn't change anything.

It (should) go without saying that P.A. Parenteau, when injured or a healthy scratch, didn't play on the first line. But sadly, when he was in the lineup, he was often slotted in there. So was Dale Weise. So was Brendan Gallagher.

So you think those guys are better offensive options than JVR? You think they're better than Bozak? You think they are "comparable?"

20% of his regular season minutes are with Plekanec with another 7% on the PK. Plekanec > Bozak, Desharnais is slightly worse than Bozak, Galchenyuk is surely better than Bozak, Gallagher is comparable to JVR. Really its only Weiss and Parenteau that stick out, and Kessel had his share of shifts with Winnik/Santorelli/Komarov types too.

Even if there is a gap between the forward units, Montreal's D blows Toronto's out of the water, especially offensively.

 

[WarriorofTime]

That's an unclever way to dodge my argument. Ever heard of a red herring?

I don't remember your question.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

Be honest. How many GM'S do you think would take Phil Kessel on their team over Patrick Kane?

Zero and everyone in this forum knows it.

You just have a few Leaf fans arguing for the sake of argument. Fact is, even with the meaningless 80 point seasons. What exactly did Kessel do to make the season a success.

Nothing and that's a fact, team has never won a round during the Kessel era

 

[kudymen]

I don't remember your question.

Why do you hate Kessel.

You are just jealous. Right?

 

[Nithoniniel]

Zero and everyone in this forum knows it.

You just have a few Leaf fans arguing for the sake of argument. Fact is, even with the meaningless 80 point seasons. What exactly did Kessel do to make the season a success.

Nothing and that's a fact, team has never won a round during the Kessel era

Zero in a world with no cap, for sure. That's pretty much the only thing I agree with here.

The rest of your post is basically saying that despite whatever Kessel does, if the team at large doesn't have success, then he personally didn't do good.

I really hope you can see how that lacks any kind of logic.

20% of his regular season minutes are with Plekanec with another 7% on the PK. Plekanec > Bozak, Desharnais is slightly worse than Bozak, Galchenyuk is surely better than Bozak, Gallagher is comparable to JVR. Really its only Weiss and Parenteau that stick out, and Kessel had his share of shifts with Winnik/Santorelli/Komarov types too.

Even if there is a gap between the forward units, Montreal's D blows Toronto's out of the water, especially offensively.

Either way, Pacioretty is an awesome player who's also coming off a high-PDO season. Not really the best example to hold against Kessel.

 

[Blender]

I have zero doubt whatsoever that Kessel's point totals would go up sizeably if he was on the Blackhawks. Your kidding yourself if you think they wouldn't.

I doubt it, that is rarely what happens when a good player on a bad team moves to a good team. In fact the opposite usually happens, that player's points go down because they get less time with the puck and less ice time because the team is better and deeper.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I doubt it, that is rarely what happens when a good player on a bad team moves to a good team. In fact the opposite usually happens, that player's points go down because they get less time with the puck and less ice time because the team is better and deeper.

But if the scenario is that Kessel takes Kane's place and usage, he would actually get played more at even strength with much easier minutes, and play the same as he does now at the PP.

That's not the norm because players on bad teams that move are very rarely actually all that good, they just get played a ton since there are no other options. That's not really the case with Kessel.

 

[Blender]

But if the scenario is that Kessel takes Kane's place and usage, he would actually get played more at even strength with much easier minutes, and play the same as he does now at the PP.

That's not the norm because players on bad teams that move are very rarely actually all that good, they just get played a ton since there are no other options. That's not really the case with Kessel.

If he replaced Kane right now I think he'd get around the same amount of points he does for the Leafs. He's not a better player than Kane is.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

I actually think playing on a different team would hurt Kane's point totals. The Hawks were able to shelter him from the hard competition. On most other teams, that just wouldn't be the case and he would have to sacrifice a good chunk of offence facing the tough matchups.

Not necessarily. If properly utilized, I think he would do fantastic in Montreal. We have the defense and goaltending to allow a more risk-oriented style, at least from our first line. The issue being would Therrien actually do that, or try to force Kessel to grind?

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Kessel

There is some frighteningly good potential there.

 

[mustardnight*]

Not necessarily. If properly utilized, I think he would do fantastic in Montreal. We have the defense and goaltending to allow a more risk-oriented style, at least from our first line. The issue being would Therrien actually do that, or try to force Kessel to grind?

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Kessel

There is some frighteningly good potential there.

Habs can't afford Kessel and would never trade for him, nor trade with the leafs.

It's like this weird fixation on galchenyuk being a centre. He needs to play well before getting put anywhere near a top line.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Habs can't afford Kessel and would never trade for him, nor trade with the leafs.

It's like this weird fixation on galchenyuk being a centre. He needs to play well before getting put anywhere near a top line.

Yes we could, and would. We have a slew of good prospects comparable to most that has been tossed around. History would also prove you wrong as Toronto had a deal in place to send Sundin to Montreal - it falling through only due to Sundin refusing to waive. Need I remind you we tried to trade Gorges to Toronto as well? Believed to be for Franson.

He has played good; certainly better than Desharnais. It's idiotic we may be entering a third season with him on the wing despite wanting to develop him into a center. Give him an actual chance - 20-30 games at the start of the season - playing at center, then make a decision based on the results.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He might have his warts but he's among the most underrated players in the game today.

Not necessarily. If properly utilized, I think he would do fantastic in Montreal. We have the defense and goaltending to allow a more risk-oriented style, at least from our first line. The issue being would Therrien actually do that, or try to force Kessel to grind?

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Kessel

There is some frighteningly good potential there.

Would love to see it. I'd give up two firsts, a prospect and a salary dump going the other way. Should be interesting to see if the Leafs hang onto him. I was sure they were going to deal him but now that they have Babcock, maybe not.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

If he replaced Kane right now I think he'd get around the same amount of points he does for the Leafs. He's not a better player than Kane is.

Kessel is actually pretty adaptable in terms of his offensive skill-set. People view him as a natural goal-scorer but he has elite vision as well. He's more than just a streaking winger with a gifted shot, he can thread the needle with zone time and make a play that you can't even see from the bird's eye view.

 

[Blender]

Kessel is actually pretty adaptable in terms of his offensive skill-set. People view him as a natural goal-scorer but he has elite vision as well. He's more than just a streaking winger with a gifted shot, he can thread the needle with zone time and make a play that you can't even see from the bird's eye view.

I know what Kessel's strengths and weaknesses are, he isn't a better player than Kane. He wouldn't be **** on as much in Chicago for his terrible defense and lack of physical play because he'd be more sheltered, but I doubt his offense would go up any more than what he does now. It rarely ever works that way.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I know what Kessel's strengths and weaknesses are, he isn't a better player than Kane. He wouldn't be **** on as much in Chicago for his terrible defense and lack of physical play because he'd be more sheltered, but I doubt his offense would go up any more than what he does now. It rarely ever works that way.

I agree that it rarely works that way. Kovalchuk's numbers went down but his defensive effort improved as an example.

But I was merely presenting my reasons why I don't think Kessel would be consistent with that outcome. He's a terrific playmaker and I think he could hit 50 assists on a better, deeper team.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I agree that it rarely works that way. Kovalchuk's numbers went down but his defensive effort improved as an example.

But I was merely presenting my reasons why I don't think Kessel would be consistent with that outcome. He's a terrific playmaker and I think he could hit 50 assists on a better, deeper team.

Passing to guys like Brad Richards and Kris Versteeg? Ehh. I

 

[hamzarocks]

Passing to guys like Brad Richards and Kris Versteeg? Ehh. I

he was passing to guys like bozak, komorov, santa, winnik, jvr this year and was ppg for the fist half of the year before the whole team collapsed. Also are you forgetting he plays first pp minutes with towes, and one of hossa,saad,sharp, along with keith and seabrook on the backend, they allow him to play more of an offensive game and not worry about defense, in toronto bozak and jvr are not good defensive players they make it worse for kessel.

 

[WarriorofTime]

he was passing to guys like bozak, komorov, santa, winnik, jvr this year and was ppg for the fist half of the year before the whole team collapsed. Also are you forgetting he plays first pp minutes with towes, and one of hossa,saad,sharp, along with keith and seabrook on the backend, they allow him to play more of an offensive game and not worry about defense, in toronto bozak and jvr are not good defensive players they make it worse for kessel.

If kessel would fix the hawks powerplay woes then I'm all in favor lol

 

[Nithoniniel]

If he replaced Kane right now I think he'd get around the same amount of points he does for the Leafs. He's not a better player than Kane is.

I don't think he is either. But I also have a hard time seeing how playing more minutes with much more offensive zone starts and higher possession in general on a much stronger team wouldn't result in a boost in his totals.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't think he is either. But I also have a hard time seeing how playing more minutes with much more offensive zone starts and higher possession in general on a much stronger team wouldn't result in a boost in his totals.

And more defensive responsibility. It's rarely that simple.

 

[Purity*]

Passing to guys like Brad Richards and Kris Versteeg? Ehh. I

JVR's career high before coming to play with Kessel was 21 goals and 40 points. He scored 30 goals and 61 points when he was put on a line with Kessel. Lupul was never anything more than a 20-goal 50 poinit winger in Anaheim. He comes to Toronto and plays with Kessel, and puts up 85 points in 82 games playing beside Kessel over 2 seasons (he was injured in 12-13).

Kessel has shown that he can elevate players production to another level when they join him on a line.

And more defensive responsibility. It's rarely that simple.

Seriously??? 60-70% offensive zone starts vs 3rd/4th lines is MORE defensive responsibility? Please play again.

 

[Ocoee]

I don't understand why so many people are obsessed with his weight. Kessel is clearly one of the elite wingers in the league. I'm not a Leaf fan in the least but it's obsurd how much hate and criticism he gets. Just because a player doesn't "fit the mold" of what HF thinks a player should doesn't mean he is bad.

 

[WarriorofTime]

JVR's career high before coming to play with Kessel was 21 goals and 40 points. He scored 30 goals and 61 points when he was put on a line with Kessel. Lupul was never anything more than a 20-goal 50 poinit winger in Anaheim. He comes to Toronto and plays with Kessel, and puts up 85 points in 82 games playing beside Kessel over 2 seasons (he was injured in 12-13).

Kessel has shown that he can elevate players production to another level when they join him on a line.



Seriously??? 60-70% offensive zone starts vs 3rd/4th lines is MORE defensive responsibility? Please play again.

Watch a hawks game before you comment. Kessel wouldn't be able to float around.

Offensive zone starts and SECOND PAIRS!!! have to be the most overblown thing ever. Kessel is a 60 point player when he plays with poor linemates. And that's with being the biggest floater in the league.