The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[zeke]

That’s not real evidence. That’s just you speculating.

You made the claim. You can’t ask others to show evidence he was really injured now lol.

What was his injury again?

 

[zeke]

Andersen: Playing through injury with Leafs 'wasn't the best idea'

Maple Leafs' Keefe: 'No concern' Frederik Andersen is done for season

Andersen to start for Maple Leafs vs. Senators in return from knee injury


Lower body/knee injury. Your beyond reasoning with how delusional you are against andersen and towards dubas.

I no certainly you'll be switching your opinion on mrazek if he stinks with the team next year.

You run away when your wrong, easy to do but classless to see. After the playoffs where you hype the leafs up and talk smack about other teams when leafs get humbled you walk out to save face. You've hated andersen pretty much since when we traded for him, and despite him proving you wrong with years of excellent goaltending your piling on him after he's left and making up fake stories about how he was never injured despite himself, the coach and management expressing he was

Ah a knee injury, was it?

 

[NinjaKick]

its do or die this up and coming season and everyone is on thin ice. the pressure is on and its immense.
good news. no one can say that we're not contenders for the playoffs... and after that, anything can happen. (fingers crossed)
just my 2 cents.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Twine i'm with you buddy , once Dubie gets fired at the end of this season we'll run around these boards pimping the shit out of Dubie in an effort to get him another job .

hell , i'm sure egd27/Brannigans/Bomber/Sparxx/All Mod Cons and a few others will help us get him hired in our division .

Do you have any logical replacement's for Kyle yet? or are you just in the coulda shoulda woulda Lou Lam crowd?

If you think Kyle will need any of my help finding a new job I think you are mistaken TBH. He will be scooped up in short order. Same with Shanny.

We can bitch and moan about the results all we want, but the fact of the matter is Shanny was hired in 2014, he immediately hired Kyle to the organization, and together they have taken this joke of a franchise from the bottom of a yurnal cake to a perennial playoff team. I won't say contender because it's likely a trigger for some on here. This core group has failed to break through in the playoffs. But their ability to assemble a team is very good. Were they supposed to not draft Willy, Mitch, Auston? I recognize Kyle had no major influence on those decisions, but surely Shanny did. Would a Ehlers, Hanifin, Laine core been the better choice?

We took the best players in those positions, and we haven't moved off of them yet. Largely because the oldest one of them is 25. Their talent assessment is on point. Unfortunately it may not end up being the right formula of core. But when you look at the alternatives, I'd say we did ok. And despite the utter chaos going on in this thread, the league see's that too. Together they have helped build a very good organization. Top to bottom. Something that hadn't been the case in a very long time. They'll be more than ok if we decide to move on from them.

Although I honestly don't think that's the right call despite the results this upcoming season. I know I am very much a part of the small minority on this, so I will not try and convince anyone of this. But I'd have no problem letting KD and Shanny take on a retool/rebuild.

 

[IPS]

Ah a knee injury, was it?

Both groin and knee issues throughout the season?

 

[zeke]

What possible situation would be better than the one he was given??

A situation like Lou had would have been much better, obviously, with all these ELCS handed to him:

Hyman - Matthews - Marner
Brown - Nylander - Kapanen
Johnsson - Verhaeghe - Leivo
Engvall

Rielly
Dermott - Holl

 

[hamzarocks]

Ah a knee injury, was it?

Can you read? Or is that too much to ask? Clearly you can't use Google to check the links posted

Living in your own delusional world. Only Zekes can do so

 

[zeke]

Can you read? Or is that too much to ask? Clearly you can't use Google to check the links posted

Maybe you can read the part where it says what the injury was?

 

[Mess]

Yeah, maybe if those 100 point teams can win in the playoffs, and it isn't a mirage team.

How does one with an untrained eye distinguish the difference between a mirage team and a real team when it has the same core players like the 3 Amigo's only making much more money now and at the end of the day the mirage and supposed real team produces the exact same disappointing 1st round losses?

Logic would suggest a real team with bad results reflects more poorly on that GM, then a mirage team on its GM when expectations for success are much less but end results still the same.

Maybe because the results are the same that both teams are in fact Stanley Cup contender mirages.

 

[hamzarocks]

Maybe you can read the part where it says what the injury was?

Read the links, search it for yourself if you don't trust them, or don't try and post false information about a player faking his own injury

Crazy how someone can be so delusional that they have to make up stories to make themselves being happy about a player they didn't like whose now gone struggling in his final year here

 

[hotpaws]

Do you have any logical replacement's for Kyle yet? or are you just in the coulda shoulda woulda Lou Lam crowd?

If you think Kyle will need any of my help finding a new job I think you are mistaken TBH. He will be scooped up in short order. Same with Shanny.

We can bitch and moan about the results all we want, but the fact of the matter is Shanny was hired in 2014, he immediately hired Kyle to the organization, and together they have taken this joke of a franchise from the bottom of a yurnal cake to a perennial playoff team. I won't say contender because it's likely a trigger for some on here. This core group has failed to break through in the playoffs. But their ability to assemble a team is very good. Were they supposed to not draft Willy, Mitch, Auston? I recognize Kyle had no major influence on those decisions, but surely Shanny did. Would a Ehlers, Hanifin, Laine core been the better choice?

We took the best players in those positions, and we haven't moved off of them yet. Largely because the oldest one of them is 25. Their talent assessment is on point. Unfortunately it may not end up being the right formula of core. But when you look at the alternatives, I'd say we did ok. And despite the utter chaos going on in this thread, the league see's that too. Together they have helped build a very good organization. Top to bottom. Something that hadn't been the case in a very long time. They'll be more than ok if we decide to move on from them.

Although I honestly don't think that's the right call despite the results this year. I know I am very much a part of the small minority on this, so I will But I'd have no problem letting KD and Shanny take on a retool/rebuild. not try and convince anyone of this.

sure lets give KD a job for life since he's the only GM in the history of any sport that's irreplaceable

so who's cares if he failed in building around AM and the boys since hopefully he won't fail in the retool and if he fails at that we'll just let him do another full rebuild and if fails at that he can try another since as you said he's irreplaceable

and your probably right that teams would be fighting over him if he's let go because people who fail and have no track record of success are usually at the top of every teams list of must hire

 

[hamzarocks]

The defense is very good, so no worries there.

But have they actually lost offensive depth?

Lou's last leafs paces ----> this year's team with 2yr paces

EV pts (PP pts)

Matthews 66 (17) -----> Matthews 73 (26)
Marner 42 (27) --------> Marner 67 (27)
Nylander 49 (12) -----> Nylander 50 (19)

Kadri 37 (20) -------> Tavares 53 (23)
Marleau 38 (9) ----> Bunting 39 (12)
Hyman 38 (0) ------> Mikheyev 34 (0)

Bozak 30 (13) -------> Kerfoot 31 (3)
VanRyk 34 (20) ------> Spezza 32 (9)
Brown 25 (2) ---------> Ritchie 28 (10)

Moore 18 (0) ---------> Kampf 18 (0)
Martin 20 (0) --------> Engvall 23 (0)
Komarov 17 (3) ----> Simmonds 17 (9)

Plekanec 9 (0) ------> Amadio 13 (4)
Leivo 21 (0) ----------> Kase 30 (0)
Johnsson 18 (9) ----> Anderson 26 (0)
Kapanen 18 (0) -----> Robertson 14 (0)

Things do look good when you ignore that Lou didn't get to enjoy Kapanen, Moore, AJ in a major offensive role like Dubas did in 2019 and 2020. We are relying on unproven or question marked guys for bounce back seasons offensively/good health to have similar offensive depth

Kase big concern though if healthy should be good

Milheyev hoping for a bounce back to his rookie season form

Ritchie are hoping can take the next step to match hymans 55-60 point level production

Hoping Bunting is the real deal and can give us 30-40 points

You posts these comparisons constantly yet still go ducking for the woods once the leafs are out come first round. Nothing you post is ever unbiased and fair. You post with the most homeristic lenses possible

 

[sparxx87]

Andersen: Playing through injury with Leafs 'wasn't the best idea'

Maple Leafs' Keefe: 'No concern' Frederik Andersen is done for season

Andersen to start for Maple Leafs vs. Senators in return from knee injury


Lower body/knee injury. Your beyond reasoning with how delusional you are against andersen and towards dubas.

I no certainly you'll be switching your opinion on mrazek if he stinks with the team next year.

You run away when your wrong, easy to do but classless to see. After the playoffs where you hype the leafs up and talk smack about other teams when leafs get humbled you walk out to save face. You've hated andersen pretty much since when we traded for him, and despite him proving you wrong with years of excellent goaltending your piling on him after he's left and making up fake stories about how he was never injured despite himself, the coach and management expressing he was

I remember the play vividly. He slid to his left to make a save then immediately flopped onto his stomach as if to relieve tension from something in his lower half. Felt like there was probably a collective gasp from many watching but he stayed in the game. If I recall, it was late in the game and he saw little to no action after so it was easy to forget... but then he came out and struggled in the next few after, as you mentioned, he had a very good few weeks prior after yet another slow start.

I also think this overlapped with one of Campbell's injuries so the choice was Hutchinson or an injured Freddy. It seems they chose injured Freddy and injured Freddy got even more injured and ended up missing the rest of the season.

We don't really know what went into this decision although much of the speculation seems very sensible, I do know for certain that most teams will give their starting goalie all the time he needs to recover from knee, hip, groin and sometimes ankle injuries... any of those parts at less than 100% make it really tough to play goalie in the NHL.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Do you have anything to substantiate that? I didn't actually get a response from you when we explored some of the situations Dubas "inherited". There's obviously a lot more that goes into the situation a GM walks into than the team's raw point total the year before.

I don’t need to substantiate that. It’s pretty much common sense that GMs get hired when the last one was fired, and that happens when a franchise isn’t doing great. Not when they just set franchise points records and have some of the best young stars on ELCs in the league. We can play this game you’re trying to play but you’re wasting both our times and you know it.

 

[egd27]

Are you saying that you think that with a 5.5 year average tenure, the majority of GMs get fired in 4 years or less?

No, I'm saying that an average of 5.5 doesn't necessarily mean the majority of the sample is greater than 5.5.......but again, you already know that so I'm unclear why you are keeping the topic alive with questions other than to try and start some type of bizarre argument.

 

[ULF_55]

How does one with and untrained eye distinguish the difference between a mirage team and a real team when it has the same core players like the 3 Amigo's only making much more money now and at the end of the day the mirage and supposed real team produces the exact same disappointing 1st round losses?

Logic would suggest a real team with bad results reflects more poorly on that GM, then a mirage team on its GM when expectations for success are much less but end results still the same.

Count victories in the current century?

Maybe the Leafs aren't really that talented?
Maybe their top 5 picks just don't have it.

 

[sparxx87]

OK great point.

So what you're telling me is that someone in KD's shoes could have moved on from Mitch Marner at the expiry of his entry level deal. I am assuming you think a lot of GM's would have done this? and that Kyle kind of took a poor approach to resigning his superstar player?

here is a list of star RFA players who have yet to be signed this offseason, and almost all will likely not get moved to another team:

Brady Tkachuk, Rasmus Dahlin, Quinn Hughes, and Elias Petterson, and Kirill Kaprisov.

Each GM is in a very similar spot as KD was with Mitch in 2019. Lets see how many of them make that franchise altering decision to move on from their star players. Because remember we are not talking about the deal Mitch eventually signed, we are talking about moving on from Mitch entirely as a 22 year old budding star. It just doesn't happen. No GM does that. So why be critical of Kyle for doing something the vast majority of NHL GM's would have done? We can talk about his overpayments on Mitch, Auston and JT's deals. They realistically total 5.5 to 6.5 million in overpayments with an unforeseen flat cap immediately thereafter. It has been mitigated in other ways, and we have still been able to improve our defense to a level not seen for 20 years.

But again, lets see how these GM's handle their current situations. Lets see how many of them want to move on from their stars via trade, not offersheet.

Phil Kessel wasn't as recent, but he was a star offensive winger who hit RFA and was asking for more than his club was comfortable paying. They were trying to win a championship and were very careful as to how they were allocating dollars so they chose to wait it out, prepared for a potential offer sheet before eventually accepting two firsts and a second from a team they projected to be bad.

They won the cup a year later.

 

[Gary Nylund]

of course, it is no where near the benchmark to say this was the best team ever. Nor was I even suggesting it. But the product on the ice, along with the results, which can be partly illustrated with their pts%, was more than enough to think that this team should go for it at the TDL. Overpayment and all.

This team was very dangerous, and should have faired better in the playoffs. All of the prior indicators were there.

This year truly was a case of it walking like a duck, talking like a duck, and it actually being a pigeon

I don't agree but it's not an unreasonable opinion, I can see why people would hold this POV.

Excellent post and I agree with everything said with the lone exception being the math.

JT isn’t exactly overpaid. He is paid below what the market offered and as a UFA the only way to acquire the player is to ante up, so I don’t know you can really fault Dubas for the AAV there.

Beyond that, Auston is probably about $1m overpaid at most, based on the shorter term.

And Mitch is the probably about $2m

So, I’d say around $3m total which is still not great at all but yeah

This seems about right to me as well.

Dubas has overpaid on the following contracts:

JT: 3 million overpaid
Mitch: 1.5 million overpaid
Auston: 1.5 million overpaid
Kampf: 500k overpaid

Mitch and Auston's deals are overpayments likely only because of the flat cap, whereas JT's was just an overpayment. Which just happens in UFA.

He's also got:

Spezza: 2 million underpaid
Holl: 1.5 million underpaid
Bunting: 250k underpaid
Campbell: 2 million underpaid

He didn't sign Campbell, but was wise enough to acquire a good value contract with term.

its relatively a wash at this point. Not to mention the rumored discount Mo is willing to take. it will likely put us in a higher value for dollar spent, all while managing a flat cap. I am confused how people don't see this.

JT isn't overpaid at all IMO. You sign a UFA, it's gonna cost and that's fine. As far as these underpayments, I don't agree with much of this but whatever. More interesting to me is WTF is going on with Campbell? I'd like to extend him now for maybe 3-4 years and if he plays well like I think he will, we won't be able to afford him next season unless we trade Marner.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

No, I'm saying that an average of 5.5 doesn't necessarily mean the majority of the sample is greater than 5.5.......but again, you already know that so I'm unclear why you are keeping the topic alive with questions other than to try and start some type of bizarre argument.

That’s what the Dubas lovers do. They try to overcomplicate the obvious by framing their arguments in truly strange contexts that honestly don’t really matter.

It’s not that complicated.

Three years on the job; hasn’t accomplished jackshit we haven’t seen before his arrival. Fell below all expectations every year, crippled our cap situation with his stupidity and the team on paper looks worse than when he took over.

Bottom line: no results and things look bleaker now than when he took over. Everything else is just spin

 

[Gabriel426]

Do you have any logical replacement's for Kyle yet? or are you just in the coulda shoulda woulda Lou Lam crowd?

If you think Kyle will need any of my help finding a new job I think you are mistaken TBH. He will be scooped up in short order. Same with Shanny.

We can bitch and moan about the results all we want, but the fact of the matter is Shanny was hired in 2014, he immediately hired Kyle to the organization, and together they have taken this joke of a franchise from the bottom of a yurnal cake to a perennial playoff team. I won't say contender because it's likely a trigger for some on here. This core group has failed to break through in the playoffs. But their ability to assemble a team is very good. Were they supposed to not draft Willy, Mitch, Auston? I recognize Kyle had no major influence on those decisions, but surely Shanny did. Would a Ehlers, Hanifin, Laine core been the better choice?

We took the best players in those positions, and we haven't moved off of them yet. Largely because the oldest one of them is 25. Their talent assessment is on point. Unfortunately it may not end up being the right formula of core. But when you look at the alternatives, I'd say we did ok. And despite the utter chaos going on in this thread, the league see's that too. Together they have helped build a very good organization. Top to bottom. Something that hadn't been the case in a very long time. They'll be more than ok if we decide to move on from them.

Although I honestly don't think that's the right call despite the results this upcoming season. I know I am very much a part of the small minority on this, so I will not try and convince anyone of this. But I'd have no problem letting KD and Shanny take on a retool/rebuild.

I don't know if Shanny would trust Dubas to retool/rebuild, bc it would mean trading one or two of AM, JT, MM and Willie. Keep changing the bottom 6 and spare parts wont do anything if the core 4 don't show up in the playoffs.

 

[egd27]

Our starting goalie Fred, who started more games and then faked an injury to save his pride, was a disaster that dragged his elite team down to a 95pt bubble pace when he was in net. Dubas made a big move this summer to fix that biggest hole.

And you have the audacity to accuse others on this board of lying? Any shred of credibility that you had left is now gone.

 

[ULF_55]

That’s what the Dubas lovers do. They try to overcomplicate the obvious by framing their arguments in truly strange contexts that honestly don’t really matter.

It’s not that complicated.

Three years on the job; hasn’t accomplished jackshit we haven’t seen before his arrival. Fell below all expectations every year, crippled our cap situation with his stupidity and the team on paper looks worse than when he took over.

Bottom line: no results and things look bleaker now than when he took over. Everything else is just spin

It isn't complicated at all.

Dubas thought the players were better than they are.

1 goal in the playoffs between Matthews and marner ... definitely not complicated.

 

[ToneDog]

I don't know if Shanny would trust Dubas to retool/rebuild, bc it would mean trading one or two of AM, JT, MM and Willie. Keep changing the bottom 6 and spare parts wont do anything if the core 4 don't show up in the playoffs.

Shanny is in year 8 of his rebuild. He will not be in charge of rebuild #2 if there is one. He and his boy wonder are going to die on their hill if the Leafs cough up another fur ball in the playoffs. The fans will have seen enough and so will senior Leaf management.

 

[Twine Tickler]

sure lets give KD a job for life since he's the only GM in the history of any sport that's irreplaceable

so who's cares if he failed in building around AM and the boys since hopefully he won't fail in the retool and if he fails at that we'll just let him do another full rebuild and if fails at that he can try another since as you said he's irreplaceable

and your probably right that teams would be fighting over him if he's let go because people who fail and have no track record of success are usually at the top of every teams list of must hire

I think you're missing the point I am trying to make. I am not suggesting there hasn't been failures along the way. I have been quite open and honest where I think Kyle has failed, and where Shanny has as well. But when assessing their body of work when they came into MLSE, they have completely changed the trajectory of this franchise. The results unfortunately don't align with that change.

To me what that illustrates is that they know how to right a ship. They took a franchise that had zero prospects despite drafting in the top 10 annually, to having a very deep pool and extremely talented core. And they also made this team a perennial playoff team after missing the playoffs 10 of the 11 seasons prior. They know how to assess talent, they know who to hire to get that talent. Seems a bit foolish to me to basically have Brendan and Kyle go to school on what works in TOR, and the NHL for that matter over the last 8 years only to relieve them for another team to capitalize on that knowledge. This board may operate on hindsight, but in reality the only logic you get is earned through experience. They've demonstrated they can put a talented group together, they now have the experience to know what might not work in a media intensive market like TOR. If I were MLSE, I would give the vote of confidence to Shanny right now. Saying he is going absolutely no where, and should this organization shift in a new direction, He will be the guy to do it. And if he decides Kyle is his guy, let them right the ship. They've helped do it before in this market, why should we think they can't do it again

 

[Twine Tickler]

Phil Kessel wasn't as recent, but he was a star offensive winger who hit RFA and was asking for more than his club was comfortable paying. They were trying to win a championship and were very careful as to how they were allocating dollars so they chose to wait it out, prepared for a potential offer sheet before eventually accepting two firsts and a second from a team they projected to be bad.

They won the cup a year later.

yup, that's certainly an example of where a trade made sense for them. Now, there was also an article on the score yesterday that said Burke was preparing to offer sheet for Kessel had Boston not traded him to the Leafs. So it really was a decision that was made for them really. But yes, you are correct, that did work out for Boston.

I wasn't saying trading Mitch at that junction couldn't have given us better results. I was saying that the vast majority of GM's in his position would have resigned Mitch. Prices aside. The fact that the Kessel deal happened in 2009 and there are not many other examples of this nature that I can recall since kind of demonstrates my point. So it just seems foolish to critique KD for signing Mitch over trading him when that's the likeliest of outcomes for anybody who would have been in that position.