The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[hotpaws]

I think you're missing the point I am trying to make. I am not suggesting there hasn't been failures along the way. I have been quite open and honest where I think Kyle has failed, and where Shanny has as well. But when assessing their body of work when they came into MLSE, they have completely changed the trajectory of this franchise. The results unfortunately don't align with that change.

To me what that illustrates is that they know how to right a ship. They took a franchise that had zero prospects despite drafting in the top 10 annually, to having a very deep pool and extremely talented core. And they also made this team a perennial playoff team after missing the playoffs 10 of the 11 seasons prior. They know how to assess talent, they know who to hire to get that talent. Seems a bit foolish to me to basically have Brendan and Kyle go to school on what works in TOR, and the NHL for that matter over the last 8 years only to relieve them for another team to capitalize on that knowledge. This board may operate on hindsight, but in reality the only logic you get is earned through experience. They've demonstrated they can put a talented group together, they now have the experience to know what might not work in a media intensive market like TOR. If I were MLSE, I would give the vote of confidence to Shanny right now. Saying he is going absolutely no where, and should this organization shift in a new direction, He will be the guy to do it. And if he decides Kyle is his guy, let them right the ship. They've helped do it before in this market, why should we think they can't do it again

so now your giving Dubas credit for the work of others ?

have your fun now while you can since this is Dubie's last season , not that i actually believe you give a damn about him anyway . lol

 

[hotpaws]

If they are being paid they obviously aren't being reviewed since they're doing a terrible job of it.

in their defense , Dubie isn't giving them much to work with , lol

 

[Twine Tickler]

I don't agree but it's not an unreasonable opinion, I can see why people would hold this POV.



This seems about right to me as well.



JT isn't overpaid at all IMO. You sign a UFA, it's gonna cost and that's fine. As far as these underpayments, I don't agree with much of this but whatever. More interesting to me is WTF is going on with Campbell? I'd like to extend him now for maybe 3-4 years and if he plays well like I think he will, we won't be able to afford him next season unless we trade Marner.

Ya I don't think JT is overpaid as a UFA personally. But again, that's kind of the suggested figure people suggest on here when talking about this core being overpaid. All n all. I'd say at most those 3 players combine for 6Million overpayment, and the players I listed as underpaid were there to demonstrate the value for dollar spent. It's completely interpretive on both ends, but the argument I am trying to make remains constant. The amount overpaid is roughly equal to underpaid. We have value down the lineup.

As for Soupy, I love the guy. But I really don't think it's a huge risk taking him into his final year TBH. He love TOR. And he will likely only play 35-45 games. So I just cant see him getting some dollar figure from us that is any greater than what he'd get right now. I think for them, they probably see that last year + playoffs as close to the best version of Jack they will ever see. No sense giving him the bag coming off of a high. Our hope is that he returns to the exact form as he did last year, and we pay him appropriately thereafter. But there is a potential regression that we need to make sure we don't overpay for now.

 

[ULF_55]

in their defense , Dubie isn't giving them much to work with , lol

Perhaps the players, happy they took out the coach (Babcock) have set their sites higher up the food chain?

Starting on vacation while the playoffs are only 3 games in is a little worse than sleeping in.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I don't know if Shanny would trust Dubas to retool/rebuild, bc it would mean trading one or two of AM, JT, MM and Willie. Keep changing the bottom 6 and spare parts wont do anything if the core 4 don't show up in the playoffs.

I mean, lets not kid ourselves. KD and Shanny work harmoniously. If Shanny wants to move a core piece, KD likely does as well. At this point, they have both vouched for this group because they both feel it is the right call.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don’t need to substantiate that.

Kind of do. I've laid out quite a few unfavourable situations that he "inherited". There's very clearly more to it than the previous season's raw point total.

It’s pretty much common sense that GMs get hired when the last one was fired, and that happens when a franchise isn’t doing great.

And yet you're arguing that Dubas was hired into some amazing situation? And he should be fired while putting out a great team? Doesn't really add up.

 

[hotpaws]

Perhaps the players, happy they took out the coach (Babcock) have set their sites higher up the food chain?

Starting on vacation while the playoffs are only 3 games in is a little worse than sleeping in.

so lets trade them all except Johnny of course since Johnny like Dubie is above having his work critiqued

 

[Twine Tickler]

so now your giving Dubas credit for the work of others ?

have your fun now while you can since this is Dubie's last season , not that i actually believe you give a damn about him anyway . lol

When I said "let them right the ship. They've helped do it before in this market" I am implying they were not alone.

Lou, Babs, Hunter and all the ones that have come and gone have helped right this ship. KD and Kyle are the ones that remain. Shanny being the skipper at the top through the entirety of it all. So ya, he deserves credit. And so does Kyle as well, who as been essentially a swiss army knife for him the entire way as well. As far as I am concerned, Shanny may not feel like Kyle is the guy he wants going forward, but I do trust he will make the right decision on that if he is given that opportunity. My hope is that MLSE doesn't get in the way. If they want KD out after another failed year, and Shanny still believes he is his guy, my hope is that they step down together and we can get 2 guys in place who work harmoniously. Last thing we need is another KD + Babs like relationship. We need a level of cohesion top to bottom.

 

[Twine Tickler]

so lets trade them all except Johnny of course since Johnny like Dubie he's above having his work critiqued

Johnny has a NTC

 

[sparxx87]

yup, that's certainly an example of where a trade made sense for them. Now, there was also an article on the score yesterday that said Burke was preparing to offer sheet for Kessel had Boston not traded him to the Leafs. So it really was a decision that was made for them really. But yes, you are correct, that did work out for Boston.

I wasn't saying trading Mitch at that junction couldn't have given us better results. I was saying that the vast majority of GM's in his position would have resigned Mitch. Prices aside. The fact that the Kessel deal happened in 2009 and there are not many other examples of this nature that I can recall since kind of demonstrates my point. So it just seems foolish to critique KD for signing Mitch over trading him when that's the likeliest of outcomes for anybody who would have been in that position.

Boston made the decision that they didn’t value the player on the contract he was seeking and chose to take compensation. They could have called Burke’s bluff and matched the OS if they wanted to keep him.

They decided on two firsts and a second from a bad team.

I agree that under most circumstances a team wants to keep their young RFA’s, but every situation presents a unique set of circumstances and I think this is one of the rare examples where they’d love to keep the player, but not for that money… and if the player won’t come down, the team needs to make a tough but sensible decision for the long term good of the franchise.

And I say this as someone who likes Mitch Marner as a hockey player, but wouldn’t even consider paying him more than Kucherov and Kane.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ya I don't think JT is overpaid as a UFA personally. But again, that's kind of the suggested figure people suggest on here when talking about this core being overpaid. All n all. I'd say at most those 3 players combine for 6Million overpayment, and the players I listed as underpaid were there to demonstrate the value for dollar spent. It's completely interpretive on both ends, but the argument I am trying to make remains constant. The amount overpaid is roughly equal to underpaid. We have value down the lineup.

As for Soupy, I love the guy. But I really don't think it's a huge risk taking him into his final year TBH. He love TOR. And he will likely only play 35-45 games. So I just cant see him getting some dollar figure from us that is any greater than what he'd get right now. I think for them, they probably see that last year + playoffs as close to the best version of Jack they will ever see. No sense giving him the bag coming off of a high. Our hope is that he returns to the exact form as he did last year, and we pay him appropriately thereafter. But there is a potential regression that we need to make sure we don't overpay for now.

I agree that the overpayments aren't that big a problem. They seem worse than they are because of our top heavy salary structure and right now, Marner is the poster boy for everything wrong with this team. His is the biggest overpayment, he's the guy who's team was yapping about offersheets and so on so he's perceived as being greedy (could be that he is). he's the guy who hasn't produced for 3 playoffs, he's the guy who took perhaps the worst penalty in franchise history and he's the guy who shrugged it all off saying there's no reason to change anything. But I digress ... the overpayments aren't the problem IMO, the problem is that since the cap is staying flat, the master plan has gone down the tubes as we are not getting the additional cap space that we were expecting. Because of this unexpected turn of events, the idea of trading one big contract has a lot more going for it that it would had the cap gone up as expected. It's not Dubas fault that this happened, but it is his fault if he should change course, but fails to do so.

So, should he change the course? Well, I would if I were him and I've explained why. He's not doing so, I hope it works out. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

Campbell was phenomenal for us and I think if he plays at the same level this season, he'll be in for a substantial raise. You don't see any reason to worry about that, what can I say, I hope you're right but I don't agree.

 

[SnizzNasty88]

So trading picks is good now.



Interesting claim - though it's true that Lou did a horrible job improving our defense.



Absolutely terrible contracts to terrible players, both in contention for worst in hockey.



So Lou made the Leafs "tougher to play against" by adding exactly one 4th line goon, who Babcock benched and waived in his 2nd season before Dubas even took over. And then Dubas flushed it by adding goons like Clifford and Simmons instead.

All that definitely makes sense.



More interesting to me is what will happen to all you guys when the Leafs elite regular season success inevitably turns into playoffs success, as it almost always does.

Dude, this post is absolutely laughable. The only thing more laughable is the fact that you think Dubass is some god GM when he's close to the worst in the league. He's taken a young team and ruining it in front of our very eyes except for yours. My goodness that avatar of yours makes me want to throw up. I bet you didn't even know Dubass wears non prescription lenses

 

[myleafs]

If all 4 of our guys can play good at once in a series we might actually win one

I can't recall seeing all of our top guys firing on all cylinders at the same time in any game let alone series.

 

[hotpaws]

When I said "let them right the ship. They've helped do it before in this market" I am implying they were not alone.

Lou, Babs, Hunter and all the ones that have come and gone have helped right this ship. KD and Kyle are the ones that remain. Shanny being the skipper at the top through the entirety of it all. So ya, he deserves credit. And so does Kyle as well, who as been essentially a swiss army knife for him the entire way as well. As far as I am concerned, Shanny may not feel like Kyle is the guy he wants going forward, but I do trust he will make the right decision on that if he is given that opportunity. My hope is that MLSE doesn't get in the way. If they want KD out after another failed year, and Shanny still believes he is his guy, my hope is that they step down together and we can get 2 guys in place who work harmoniously. Last thing we need is another KD + Babs like relationship. We need a level of cohesion top to bottom.

reread your post , you didn't say they helped , you gave them all the credit

but like i said , this is just a hockey message board so entertain yourself all you want

 

[hotpaws]

Johnny has a NTC

so did Kaberle and many others who have been traded

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I can't recall seeing all of our top guys firing on all cylinders at the same time in any game let alone series.

All of them? Not a single one them fires on any cylinders in elimination games. What are we? 0-8? Truly staggering.

I’d take a misfire at this point

 

[myleafs]

All I am saying is, if we want to throw stones at his "blind loyalty" to this core, let that criticism begin now. Not from the previous years. Because no GM in his spot would have moved Mitch, Auston, or JT and if anything they would have moved Willy. Who has been our only effective player in the playoffs from that core.

I would agree mostly with this. Personally though I did not like the Tavares signing and felt it wasn't the right time or cost and feel it set in motion a lot of the issues this team has. That is on Dubas.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

so did Kaberleh and many others who have been traded

As much as I’d like to see it, trading him seems more like a wet dream at this point. Lead foot has a contract I’m not sure most teams in the NHL would stomach at this point. At least Kaberle was signed reasonably.

 

[hotpaws]

As much as I’d like to see it, trading him seems more like a wet dream at this point. Lead foot has a contract I’m not sure most teams in the NHL would stomach at this point. At least Kaberle was signed reasonably.

i agree the bigger issue is that no one wants him at that cap hit but that's the only way out , breaking Marner up into pieces might make people feel better but it won't improve the team imo

 

[BrannigansLaw]

i agree the bigger issue is that no one wants him at that cap hit but that's the only way out , breaking Marner up into pieces might make people feel better but it won't improve the team imo

I agree. I’d rather trade the guy with 0 chance of potential improvement and room for growth than Marner. He’s still young and I think he’ll eventually show up in the playoffs.

 

[SnizzNasty88]

Take in that Friedman reported we could have had MacKenzie Weegar from FLA for Dermott and Johnsson but Dubass the fraud said no because he didn't want to give up Dermott, a guy who came off major shoulder surgery and was routinely getting scratched and playing as a 7th dman. Where the absolute f*** was Dubass on that one? How does not making that trade have any sense of logic? A top 4 right handed defenseman (THAT WE DESPERATELY NEED STILL, AND PLAYS THE EXACT STYLE OF GAME WE NEED), for a third liner that we would have gotten rid of anyway (which we did) and a 7th dman on most nights. That is absolutely PATHETIC in every sense of the word. Any GM would have made that trade but nope, we have the GM who's married to his players, even if they're fringe defensemen but have decent advanced stats. Just look at how well Weegar is doing in Florida. Can this absolute pathetic excuse fraud of a GM ASAP.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Take a look at the list below:

I see quite a few that took over better situations. One of them being Dubas' predecessor. As we've already discussed, there's a lot that factors into the situation a GM walks into, beyond the one or two things you're choosing to mention.

And had a ton of cap space, picks/prospects

These ones aren't even true.

 

[ULF_55]

I agree. I’d rather trade the guy with 0 chance of potential improvement and room for growth than Marner. He’s still young and I think he’ll eventually show up in the playoffs.

He might be going in the wrong direction to eventually show up in the playoffs. Mitch Marner Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

I don't think many want to change anything of substance.
I've read people write they would want an equal player in return, but with a lower cap hit.
That's really indicating they won't be happy with any return ... that way they can get back on the box and encourage everyone to pickup stones and pitchforks...

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I see quite a few that took over better situations. One of them being Dubas' predecessor. As we've already discussed, there's a lot that factors into the situation a GM walks into, beyond the one or two things you're choosing to mention.

These ones aren't even true.

Quite a few? Which ones are those? Playoff team
with franchise ELC core driving their team being the main criteria remember.

This was not a playoff team when Lou took over in case you’ve already forgotten.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

You said yourself the only core piece we could have moved on from was Nylanxer which the only time frame that works is during his contract holdout.

No one was taking 7M player coming off a terrible year in his first season after signing the deal. After that he played great and there was no/little noise of trading him

Trading marner was only possible during his holdout or this offseason. The best time was when he was threatening to sign an offersheet. We'd have control and more bidders than we will next year if we move him.

Tkachuk's name has been on the block with him being disgruntled with the Sens, EP has said he wants to play on a winning team. We will see how many of these teams end up retaining these players and becoming a better playoff team for it. Making a move as substantial as dealing a core piece like the names mentioned is tough, but if the team results following signing a big contract to those players are as disappointing as ours it becomes questionable why a team is invested so heavily in faulty core assets

The leafs team defense quality will be determined next year when playing in an actual hockey league as opposed to a covid league. We will see how good the defense is when they play under normal circumstances that the teams of the past 20 years had to go through rather than only facing the same 6 teams for 56 games.

The defense will need to be good as the offense has lot considerable depth over the past few years

Yes but after that poor season he followed up with being MVP leading the world Championship with 18 pts in 8 games. He was also only 23 at the time coming off back to back 61 pts seasons. Not like he had no value.