The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[Dekes For Days]

This was not a playoff team when Lou took over in case you’ve already forgotten.

No, and yet he took over a better situation, which highlights the problems with determining the situation that somebody walked into by your arbitrary criteria.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I agree that the overpayments aren't that big a problem. They seem worse than they are because of our top heavy salary structure and right now, Marner is the poster boy for everything wrong with this team. His is the biggest overpayment, he's the guy who's team was yapping about offersheets and so on so he's perceived as being greedy (could be that he is). he's the guy who hasn't produced for 3 playoffs, he's the guy who took perhaps the worst penalty in franchise history and he's the guy who shrugged it all off saying there's no reason to change anything. But I digress ... the overpayments aren't the problem IMO, the problem is that since the cap is staying flat, the master plan has gone down the tubes as we are not getting the additional cap space that we were expecting. Because of this unexpected turn of events, the idea of trading one big contract has a lot more going for it that it would had the cap gone up as expected. It's not Dubas fault that this happened, but it is his fault if he should change course, but fails to do so.

So, should he change the course? Well, I would if I were him and I've explained why. He's not doing so, I hope it works out. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

Campbell was phenomenal for us and I think if he plays at the same level this season, he'll be in for a substantial raise. You don't see any reason to worry about that, what can I say, I hope you're right but I don't agree.

Ya I mean, this is likely the last crack it it with this group. Who knows what will come of it. I really could see it go either way. I think running it back has the biggest potential hurt factor, but likely is the right thing to do. We won't be in any different position next year to shift gears, and we also give Mitch and Auston 1 more year to grow in the capacity that Willy did last year. Not saying I love the idea, just think it is the best of all the shitty options.

I donno, I guess there is an element of risk for taking Campbell into the year. I am as big of a fan of his as anyone on here. I just think his mindset is so where it needs to be to play in TOR. His teammates clearly love him, and we love him as a fanbase. It's really hard to cheer against him TBH. Which is massive in the TOR market. But you cannot deny that last year was statistically the best he's ever been. His workload will not increase much with Mrazek being there, if anything very minimally. I just don't know if he can top what he did last year just based on opportunity alone. If the numbers made sense to do it now, where we can solidify our tandem for the next 3 years, then ya absolutely. But you'd have to imagine his value is about as high as it has ever been. Unless Mrazek gets hurt and Soupy has to step up again like he did last year, I just don't see him getting some massive UFA deal to drive the price up.

His value as it stands to me is similar to Driedger.
3 x 3.5AAV. If he were to sign that deal I think I'd be fine with it. I am not sure that there is a ton of risk on that deal. I think he has proven he can handle the pressure of this market. But who knows what his demands are. This is likely going to be his biggest contract he will ever get.

 

[ACC1224]

Are you for real?

His situation was one of the BEST a starting GM could hope for. Take a look at the list below:

NHL Teams with Most GM Firings Since 2010 • Sports Teller

How many of those GMs hired took over playoff teams with franchise ELC talent making up the core? And had a ton of cap space, picks/prospects and carte Blanche when it comes to front office hirings?

I mean, there is no defense for that. Really couldn't ask for the table to be set better than that.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I would agree mostly with this. Personally though I did not like the Tavares signing and felt it wasn't the right time or cost and feel it set in motion a lot of the issues this team has. That is on Dubas.

Ya there definitely was some apprehension from this fanbase surrounding that AAV when JT signed. I think it was a valid concern then, and has yet to be proven otherwise. At the end of the day, we really don't know what a team with brown, kappy, johnnson, and hyman would have become. I often think about it myself. Who knows if the results would be different. But I do know we have a phenomenal player in JT. It's really a toss up. Easy to say it would be better because the current has done nothing lol. But who knows

 

[BrannigansLaw]

No, and yet he took over a better situation, which highlights the problems with determining the situation that somebody walked into by your arbitrary criteria.

How is it arbitrary when that’s the exact situation Dubas walked into? Lol

You think it’s arbitrary because of hindsight. I’m only stating facts known at the time Dubas became GM. You’re pretending that we all knew what this team was when Lou took over. Very disingenuous of you.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

and I guess that’s also not on Dubie even though he hired him

Playing the corpse that was Thornton and Foligno post injury was unacceptable. Giving Thornton PP time is borderline a fireable ffense lol

 

[Twine Tickler]

reread your post , you didn't say they helped , you gave them all the credit

but like i said , this is just a hockey message board so entertain yourself all you want

I donno, I feel like I worded it appropriately, it just ight have been muddied as I am speaking in defense of KD and Shanny. That said, I can assure you that every person involved in the last 8 years deserves some credit for where this club is at today. Good and bad. I still feel like Shanny being the head of the snake throughout deserves the most credit. But ultimately the results haven't been there. The process in my mind has been spot on. So for that, I really hope they see it my way and let Shanny fix whatever potential mess is left after this season. Including relieving Kyle if he see's fit. I am not sure he would, and I would be in 100% support of that. Barring a deal that compromises our future drastically in the next 12 months, I really don't see my support for them changing TBH.

so did Kaberle and many others who have been traded

so too did Sundin. He wouldn't go anywhere...

All we are saying is the only feasible pieces from the core that can be moved are those that don't have NTC. JT would be the first one gone if that were not the case.

 

[hotpaws]

Playing the corpse that was Thornton and Foligno post injury was unacceptable. Giving Thornton PP time is borderline a fireable ffense lol

what bothered me the most is how he didn't change up the top line either by replacing Hyman who did nothing or by separating M and M , it's like him and Dubie get together after every game while going over the "underlying stats" and believe the puck would eventual start to go in because their the shooting % would revert to the norm so there was no reason to fix what wasn't broken

 

[Dekes For Days]

How is it arbitrary when that’s the exact situation Dubas walked into?

Because there's countless different things that factor into a situation being good or bad, and you cherry picked two specific things that applied to Dubas, and arbitrarily decided that those things equal inheriting the bestest situation ever. While ignoring the countless unfavourable situations Dubas was handed and had to deal with.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

That’s what the Dubas lovers do. They try to overcomplicate the obvious by framing their arguments in truly strange contexts that honestly don’t really matter.

It’s not that complicated.

Three years on the job; hasn’t accomplished jackshit we haven’t seen before his arrival. Fell below all expectations every year, crippled our cap situation with his stupidity and the team on paper looks worse than when he took over.

Bottom line: no results and things look bleaker now than when he took over. Everything else is just spin

I wouldn't say this part is accurate at all.
Our center depth is better.
Matthews-Tavares-Kerfoot-Kampf is easily better than Matthews-Kadri-Bozak- Gauthier

Winger depth has definitely gotten worse.

Defense is miles better.
Rielly Brodie Rielly Hainsey
Muzzin Holl Gardiner Zaitsev
Dermott Liljegren? Carrick Polak

I would say on paper the goaltending looks worse but in reality we won't know yet. Its all going to depend on if Campbell can repeat what he did last year. Mrazek is a wild card as well.

We lost depth scoring on the wing but overall I would say we are better on paper. Your other points about the cap and not accomplishing anything are both valid though.

 

[Havoc]

Shanny is in year 8 of his rebuild. He will not be in charge of rebuild #2 if there is one. He and his boy wonder are going to die on their hill if the Leafs cough up another fur ball in the playoffs. The fans will have seen enough and so will senior Leaf management.

Next year is year 6. They counted matthews/marner rookie season as year 1. Got approval in 2015. Hired Lou. Used 15/16 to see what they had. Phaneuf trade 2016. 16/17 year 1.

Going by the unwritten 5 year rule, next year is zero excuse year. Lots of changes if another first round exit.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Because there's countless different things that factor into a situation being good or bad, and you cherry picked two specific things that applied to Dubas, and arbitrarily decided that those things equal inheriting the bestest situation ever. While ignoring the countless unfavourable situations Dubas was handed and had to deal with.

What did I cherry pick? And what was so bad other than the Zaitsev and Marleau contacts? Neither of which were crippling. Matthews, Marner and Nylander were ELC players no? Leafs just set a franchise points record the year before in a tough division right? They had a year left but he botched their contracts but keep pretending his hand was forced when he’s just incompetent at his job.

I also never said best. I said one of the best and to this moment, despite you begging me for examples, you have yet to distinguish GMs from the list I took the time to find that had it better than Dubas.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

what bothered me the most is how he didn't change up the top line either by replacing Hyman who did nothing or by separating M and M , it's like him and Dubie get together after every game while going over the "underlying stats" and believe the puck would eventual start to go because their the shooting % would revert to the norm so there was no reason to fix what wasn't broken

I honestly just don't think Keefe is good coach yet. He is new to the job at an NHL level and seems to go a little deer in the headlights when things start to go bad. I honestly think Dubas probably wanted M and M split because he knows his ass is on the line and it was plain to see with JT down you needed to split them to stop it being so easy to shutdown both of them

 

[Smif]

Take in that Friedman reported we could have had MacKenzie Weegar from FLA for Dermott and Johnsson but Dubass the fraud said no because he didn't want to give up Dermott, a guy who came off major shoulder surgery and was routinely getting scratched and playing as a 7th dman. Where the absolute f*** was Dubass on that one? How does not making that trade have any sense of logic? A top 4 right handed defenseman (THAT WE DESPERATELY NEED STILL, AND PLAYS THE EXACT STYLE OF GAME WE NEED), for a third liner that we would have gotten rid of anyway (which we did) and a 7th dman on most nights. That is absolutely PATHETIC in every sense of the word. Any GM would have made that trade but nope, we have the GM who's married to his players, even if they're fringe defensemen but have decent advanced stats. Just look at how well Weegar is doing in Florida. Can this absolute pathetic excuse fraud of a GM ASAP.

Sounds almost too good of a trade to be true, doesn't it?

Hmmmm...I wonder...Does that make you think before you post or no?

 

[myleafs]

If they are being paid they obviously aren't being reviewed since they're doing a terrible job of it.

Yep, I don't want to be this cynical but Im starting to think this person and a couple others posters are purposely koo koo. All to keep people engaged on the site to provoke a response and keep us all clicking away. Whether they are paid, planted or already are part of the site, every single post of said poster is just an argument for the sake of an argument.

Something hasn't smelled right for a while with these posts but this latest one of faking an injury crossed the line of believability and into the "why the f*** am I reading this trash". I think we have been played and I don't approve.

 

[myleafs]

Dude, this post is absolutely laughable. The only thing more laughable is the fact that you think Dubass is some god GM when he's close to the worst in the league. He's taken a young team and ruining it in front of our very eyes except for yours. My goodness that avatar of yours makes me want to throw up. I bet you didn't even know Dubass wears non prescription lenses

link?

 

[egd27]

Read the links, search it for yourself if you don't trust them, or don't try and post false information about a player faking his own injury

Crazy how someone can be so delusional that they have to make up stories to make themselves being happy about a player they didn't like whose now gone struggling in his final year here

One could make the argument that accusing a player of faking an injury may be considered defamatory, which I believe is a no-no.

 

[Leaf Fans]

so lets trade them all except Johnny of course since Johnny like Dubie is above having his work critiqued

Maybe by you. I disagree. I think every part of the team should and can be critiqued.

 

[Leaf Fans]

One could make the argument that accusing a player of faking an injury may be considered defamatory, which I believe is a no-no.

It ought to be. I can't imagine a player would fake an injury.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What did I cherry pick?

The two specific positive situations that applied to Dubas, and then you arbitrarily decided that those things equal inheriting the best situation, while ignoring the countless unfavourable situations that came with it. I discussed some of them in my earlier post.

In some ways, he inherited a great situation. In other ways, he inherited a horrible situation. He's done well with his situations, all things considered.

Star ELC players... who earned significant contracts and were about to leave their ELCs (who many here consider broken players)
Cap space... opened up by departing depth, that was about to go to those star ELC players.
Draft picks (every team gets these FYI)... but a prospect pool that had been sucked dry and unreplenished by his predecessor.
Big front office budget... but all of the corresponding disadvantages of being in Toronto.

A horrible defense. A starting goalie that would implode on the team. A toxic coach. Multiple cap anchors. Etc., etc., etc.
Plus it's not like it's been a collection of the easiest situations since... A pandemic. A flat cap. His team repeatedly experiencing key injuries during the playoffs, and facing the best goaltending. Etc, etc., etc.

Context is great, but when you actually look at what's happened and all of the context, there's little justification or precedence for Dubas being fired after just 4 years on the job.

Matthews, Marner and Nylander were ELC players no?

Actually, Nylander was not under Dubas. Matthews and Marner had just one year left, and they were set to earn big contracts.

Leafs just set a franchise points record the year before

As a result of unsustainable factors/advantages/players that Dubas did not benefit from, and yet the Leafs have still put up better results under Dubas.

he botched their contracts

He didn't "botch their contracts" at all.

you have yet to distinguish GMs from the list

I gave you one in my very first response, which you dismissed - Lou.

 

[Leaf Fans]

link?

Brandon Prust once made that unsubstantiated claim when he thought Mark Hunter was a better GM choice than Dubas. He thought that Dubas believed he wore them to make himself appear older and more intelligent. ( which glasses don't do) That is of course if the poster didn't misspell Dubas's name as the poster wrote Dubass.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

The two specific positive situations that applied to Dubas, and then you arbitrarily decided that those things equal inheriting the best situation, while ignoring the countless unfavourable situations that came with it. I discussed some of them in my earlier post.


Actually, Nylander was not under Dubas. Matthews and Marner had just one year left, and they were set to earn big contracts.

As a result of unsustainable factors/advantages/players that Dubas did not benefit from, and yet the Leafs have still put up better results under Dubas.

He didn't "botch their contracts" at all.

I gave you one in my very first response, which you dismissed - Lou.

You again waste my time by not answering direct questions I presented to you. Let me ask again, what situation did he inherit that was so catastrophic?


Again, I never said best. Stop putting words in my mouth. Furthermore, I never dismissed Lou. I said you viewed him in hindsight and that nobody knew they’d be as good as they were when Matthews, Marner and Nylander entered the league.

Yes, they were set for big contacts but Dubas didn’t have to be the dumbass he is and completely cave to them. Why is Brayden Point making 9.5 for 8 years when our losers are making much more for less
term? I guess that’s part of the woe is Dumbass things he had to deal with.

What else you got? Anymore distortions and lies you’d like to spread?

Honestly you haven’t even addressed my question about which GMs had it better than Dubas so I have no respect for your opinion as you continue to dance around everything. I’m done conversing with you.

 

[Stonehands1990]

So should I assume I'm not going to get the requested example or the source of your claims then?

I honestly didn’t think I needed to provide it. Teams shuffle around GMs all the time

https://www.waveintel.org/single-post/2020/03/27/nhl-gms-by-the-numbers

 

[Stonehands1990]

average tenure of nhl gm - Google Search

2nd result
The average tenure of an NHL GM is 5.5 years, less than both the MLB (5.6) and the NBA (6.6). David Poile, with 23 years of service as the GM of the Nashville Predators, has the longest active tenure of all GMs across The NHL, MLB and The NBA.

Now 2 of us have blessed him with this logic. Get the popcorn out and watch the mental gymnastics of a Dubasite in its natural habitat

 

[Leaf Fans]

Now 2 of us have blessed him with this logic. Get the popcorn out and watch the mental gymnastics of a Dubasite in its natural habitat

Here are GMs and their terms from Cap Friendly
General Managers - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps