The Jets D

[ps241]

Middling at best. No offensive upside, just as mistake prone as Stanley, zero physical element to his game.

I think he’s a product of a paradigm created by his supporters two years before he cracked the lineup. He was being drooled over as this future star, to the point that his faults are all but ignored. Kind of like the opposite of Stanley, who was highly criticized five seconds after he was drafted, and his detractors exaggerate his flaws.

Bottom line is that I think we have one or two defenders on the farm who may serve us better than one or two of our current roster d/men.

I don’t disagree that when it comes to HFJets Stanley has been more maligned than Samberg but I know that has zero impact on the NHL club deciding Samberg beat him out for that last D spot last season. Stanley has had prolonged looks especially in 2021-22 when he got 58 NHL games but he isn’t as good defensively as Samberg who passed him last season in the coaching staffs opinion and the GM seems to support that view based on Dylan’s new 2 x $1.4 contract.

For Logan’s sake I hope he gets a fresh start with a new organization that has more room on their D roster. Seems like a good kid and good teammate but he is caught in the numbers game here now.

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

I just hope we don’t do the same thing as last year and lose a promising D man to keep BIG C as an 8 th D man and play him a dozen or do games…

Losing Kovecevic to Montreal of all teams last year …. And losing Chisholm this year in a similar manner….. would piss me off.

Gawanke on the other hand…. I never had much use for and was pleased when he cried his way out of town.

Watching and rating our prospects ( top 20) / following the draft and the players development is enjoyable…. Kovecevic in rouge and bleu pissed me off!!!!

Only thing that makes it better is watching PLD pissing on their fan base while angling his way out of town to LaLa Land!

 

[Flair Hay]

Middling at best. No offensive upside, just as mistake prone as Stanley, zero physical element to his game.

I think he’s a product of a paradigm created by his supporters two years before he cracked the lineup. He was being drooled over as this future star, to the point that his faults are all but ignored. Kind of like the opposite of Stanley, who was highly criticized five seconds after he was drafted, and his detractors exaggerate his flaws.

Bottom line is that I think we have one or two defenders on the farm who may serve us better than one or two of our current roster d/men.

The stats show the guy is good already at the NHL level defensively, improving as the year went on, and support this fan "paradigm"

I agree on Stanley being way more criticized

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

This has been discussed to death--and I think you agree-- but Ville simply has not been given a long enough opportunity in the past 4 seasons to overcome that tentativeness and strut his stuff. He's never played more than 12 games in a single season and many of us have been saying a longer sample size is necessary.

Samberg was older when he came here from the NCAA and didn't break out till this past season, when was 23, and given a prolonged stretch to overcome his mistakes.

I am assuming that real opportunity will finally be offered Ville this year. It had better, if they are serious about D&D.

Even if those 12 games had been consecutive it would have helped. Every mistake has seemed to get him another stretch in the PB. That is not an approach that builds confidence.

I don't think it is about 'man strength' or 'HIQ', though more of each would help. He has enough of those to excel in the AHL against pro men. He does need to adapt to the higher level, higher speed of the NHL. He won't do that if he is afraid to make a mistake.

I think the real problem for Heinola is a lack of opportunity. Out of Morrisey, DeMelo, Dillon, Pionk, Samberg and Schmidt, who does he displace? Heinola is waiver exempt so IMO it’s a virtual certainty he’s going down to the Moose again, no matter how well he does in training camp.

Barring some movement on the Jets roster, yes.

 

[WpgSteve]

I just hope we don’t do the same thing as last year and lose a promising D man to keep BIG C as an 8 th D man and play him a dozen or do games…

Losing Kovecevic to Montreal of all teams last year …. And losing Chisholm this year in a similar manner….. would piss me off.

Gawanke on the other hand…. I never had much use for and was pleased when he cried his way out of town.

Watching and rating our prospects ( top 20) / following the draft and the players development is enjoyable…. Kovecevic in rouge and bleu pissed me off!!!!

Only thing that makes it better is watching PLD pissing on their fan base while angling his way out of town to LaLa Land!

I'll be pissed if Kovacevic turns into anything better than a replacement level D, but that's unlikely. He wasn't going to play over any of Demelo, Pionk or Schmidt. I'd rather see him get a chance to play somewhere else than sit in our press box.

 

[raideralex99]

The problem with the Jets D is size and toughness.
How many goals has the opposition scored on the Jets standing in front of the net ... screening, deflecting or getting a second/third chance on a rebound?
Now look at the VGK where very few opposing players are able to do that with the big tough defence they have. Basically any average goalie will have good stats with that VGK defence.
Anyone notice have fast the big tough D were snapped up when FA opened up.
Imo Jets have to fix center and goalie position this year and then next year work on making the D bigger and tougher to be a contender again.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'll be pissed if Kovacevic turns into anything better than a replacement level D, but that's unlikely. He wasn't going to play over any of Demelo, Pionk or Schmidt. I'd rather see him get a chance to play somewhere else than sit in our press box.

I think Chevy should have stopped after acquiring Dillon. Kovacevic was ready for the NHL that year. He would have been just as good at 3RD as Schmidt for a fraction of the cost - and saved a 3rd rd pick. Yes he would have made rookie mistakes. Does Schmidt not make mistakes?

 

[WpgSteve]

I think Chevy should have stopped after acquiring Dillon. Kovacevic was ready for the NHL that year. He would have been just as good at 3RD as Schmidt for a fraction of the cost - and saved a 3rd rd pick. Yes he would have made rookie mistakes. Does Schmidt not make mistakes?

Are you saying that Kovacevic is as good as Nate Schmidt outside of Kovacevic being more likely to make a few rookie mistakes? That strikes me as unfair to Schmidt. Maybe someone who understands those player charts could post a comparison and we can take a look.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Are you saying that Kovacevic is as good as Nate Schmidt outside of Kovacevic being more likely to make a few rookie mistakes? That strikes me as unfair to Schmidt. Maybe someone who understands those player charts could post a comparison and we can take a look.

I'm saying he is better defensively. Schmidt is better offensively.

Schmidt actually played pretty well defensively last year but his offense suffered. Schmidt's experience gives him an edge but how big an edge? How long will it last as Kovacevic gains experience? Nowhere close to being worth the difference in their contracts.

 

[DRW204]

Middling at best. No offensive upside, just as mistake prone as Stanley, zero physical element to his game.

I think he’s a product of a paradigm created by his supporters two years before he cracked the lineup. He was being drooled over as this future star, to the point that his faults are all but ignored. Kind of like the opposite of Stanley, who was highly criticized five seconds after he was drafted, and his detractors exaggerate his flaws.

Bottom line is that I think we have one or two defenders on the farm who may serve us better than one or two of our current roster d/men.

hm not sure about middling at best. he's done v well in a 3rd pair role, but hasn't been played higher in the depth chart beyond that. i don't anticipate it happening this year either given it's morrissey and dillon on the left side.

as for offensive upside, i don't think he has stand-out nhl offensive skills, but it may not be absolutely necessary depending on who he is paired with or Fwd mix. Look at Demelo for instance primarily in a 3rd pair role he scored 13 pts in 76 gp, 9 in 52 gp and this last year scored 27 pts in 75 gp w/ great defense when elevated. perhaps Samberg can see the same.... Scoring for most dmen (not all) is highly dependent on their Fwd mix imo.

samberg did start out this past year a little shakey but improved as the year went along imo and rated real well in a 3rd pair role

stanley had a great 1st year in the CDN Division in the same role and samberg. the following year he was bad. this year i thought he started out pretty well prior to getting hurt but didn't really regain that game when he came back. stanley has played more so there's been more bad games comparatively to samberg so maybe that's why it seems like there's more detraction on him?

you brought up heinola.... he was great in the AHL probably better than samberg there. but what has he shown above samberg in the NHL exactly? if anyone is being drooled over on being a future anything it's him. and i liked him alot as a prospect. his faults gets glossed over the most imo and the most basic or routine nhl plays of his get praised as if they're something noteworthy. samberg at this point has shown way more consistency than heinola. heinola has had good games here and there, but his bad games he is basically unplayable and instills 0 confidence in the coaching staff. there's little to no chance heinola plays over samberg at this point or this line up is better w/ heinola over samberg imo.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I don't think I could disagree more.

As a youngster, a defenseman being unnoticed is a good thing, because he's not doing what the f*** things.

Maybe not flashy but really solid for a guy with little nhl experience.

I can't wait to see what he layers into his game in the coming years

There is a group with Samberg- coloured glasses, that’s for sure.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The stats show the guy is good already at the NHL level defensively, improving as the year went on, and support this fan "paradigm"

I agree on Stanley being way more criticized

The stats have also suggested that Brendan Dillon has been among our best defensemen, yet I’m consistently shocked at how often his name comes up in these forums as a weak link.

I remember when Stanley had a sparkling plus/minus, but that’s because he was being “sheltered “.

Hey, I get that Samberg may be a viable option at the sixth spot on a team that squeaks into the playoffs and subsequently gets crushed in the first round. However, unless we all agree with Chevy’s notoriously low bar for success, something needs to be done with our defense if we are going to raise that bar to something above the mushy middle.

 

[DannyGallivan]

hm not sure about middling at best. he's done v well in a 3rd pair role, but hasn't been played higher in the depth chart beyond that. i don't anticipate it happening this year either given it's morrissey and dillon on the left side.

as for offensive upside, i don't think he has stand-out nhl offensive skills, but it may not be absolutely necessary depending on who he is paired with or Fwd mix. Look at Demelo for instance primarily in a 3rd pair role he scored 13 pts in 76 gp, 9 in 52 gp and this last year scored 27 pts in 75 gp w/ great defense when elevated. perhaps Samberg can see the same.... Scoring for most dmen (not all) is highly dependent on their Fwd mix imo.

samberg did start out this past year a little shakey but improved as the year went along imo and rated real well in a 3rd pair role

stanley had a great 1st year in the CDN Division in the same role and samberg. the following year he was bad. this year i thought he started out pretty well prior to getting hurt but didn't really regain that game when he came back. stanley has played more so there's been more bad games comparatively to samberg so maybe that's why it seems like there's more detraction on him?

you brought up heinola.... he was great in the AHL probably better than samberg there. but what has he shown above samberg in the NHL exactly? if anyone is being drooled over on being a future anything it's him. and i liked him alot as a prospect. his faults gets glossed over the most imo and the most basic or routine nhl plays of his get praised as if they're something noteworthy. samberg at this point has shown way more consistency than heinola. heinola has had good games here and there, but his bad games he is basically unplayable and instills 0 confidence in the coaching staff. there's little to no chance heinola plays over samberg at this point or this line up is better w/ heinola over samberg imo.

I agree with your assessment of Heinola. I’m just thinking that it’s time to poop or get off the pot where he’s concerned. Give him a longer leash in the bigs or send him packing.

Forget Samberg or Heinola, the guy who intrigues me the most is Chisholm. He played well in junior and he has decent numbers with the Moose. I would like to see him on an extended stay with the Jets. He may be the biggest pleasant surprise on the roster.

 

[Atoyot]

Middling at best. No offensive upside, just as mistake prone as Stanley, zero physical element to his game.

I think he’s a product of a paradigm created by his supporters two years before he cracked the lineup. He was being drooled over as this future star, to the point that his faults are all but ignored. Kind of like the opposite of Stanley, who was highly criticized five seconds after he was drafted, and his detractors exaggerate his flaws.

Bottom line is that I think we have one or two defenders on the farm who may serve us better than one or two of our current roster d/men.

I don't think anybody at any point considered Samberg a future star.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I don't think anybody at any point considered Samberg a future star.

… I don’t know. I recall a whole lotta hyperbole before he was even on the moose.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I don't think anybody at any point considered Samberg a future star.

… I don’t know. I recall a whole lotta hyperbole before he was even on the moose

 

[Flair Hay]

The stats have also suggested that Brendan Dillon has been among our best defensemen, yet I’m consistently shocked at how often his name comes up in these forums as a weak link.

I remember when Stanley had a sparkling plus/minus, but that’s because he was being “sheltered “.

Hey, I get that Samberg may be a viable option at the sixth spot on a team that squeaks into the playoffs and subsequently gets crushed in the first round. However, unless we all agree with Chevy’s notoriously low bar for success, something needs to be done with our defense if we are going to raise that bar to something above the mushy middle.

I agree completely about Dillon. I'd call him our 3rd best dman. He is very solid. Samberg our 5th best/6th best with a trajectory to be a good 2nd pair guy on a contender.

I think the key to getting this defense above mushy middle level is finding a number 1 RD. Unfortunately Samberg nor anyone else on our D or prospect pool fits this criteria...

Stanley I have not given up on totally for what it's worth. I don't hate him as much as most.

 

[Atoyot]

… I don’t know. I recall a whole lotta hyperbole before he was even on the moose.

There was a lot of talk about how he plays a style that should translate well to the NHL. He's never put up the points to be considered a potential star. More of a high floor low ceiling type player. Brett Pesce as an "if everything goes right" comparable.

 

[DannyGallivan]

There was a lot of talk about how he plays a style that should translate well to the NHL. He's never put up the points to be considered a potential star. More of a high floor low ceiling type player. Brett Pesce as an "if everything goes right" comparable.

That is a well balanced, sensible response to my points. For the record, everybody who responded to me made very smart comments. I like discussing hockey with smart people.

 

[surixon]

There was a lot of talk about how he plays a style that should translate well to the NHL. He's never put up the points to be considered a potential star. More of a high floor low ceiling type player. Brett Pesce as an "if everything goes right" comparable.

He's not as mean as Pesce but I think he is trending towards being a bigger DeMelo type which is a valuable support piece.

We need Ville to take that next step because our pool in terms of defense is shallow.
Most of the teams dcore have contracts expiring within two seasons so we are going to need some replacements. We also need more dmen like JoMo that play a balanced game that can drive a pairing. Heinola has done so at the AHL level so I am hoping he can drive a second pairing at the NHL level at some point in the next two to three years.

 

[DRW204]

I agree with your assessment of Heinola. I’m just thinking that it’s time to poop or get off the pot where he’s concerned. Give him a longer leash in the bigs or send him packing.

Forget Samberg or Heinola, the guy who intrigues me the most is Chisholm. He played well in junior and he has decent numbers with the Moose. I would like to see him on an extended stay with the Jets. He may be the biggest pleasant surprise on the roster.

don't entirely disagree. however, the Jets bleed GAs when he's on the ice at v high rates. yes small sample, but if a player is giving up 3.3-4 GA/60 over the past couple years and you're trying to win games, what do you do? esp. when you clearly got superior alternative options.

i dont have a qualified opinion about chisholm to comment. however the current 6 dmen are likely the ones we go into the year with. samberg was great in his minutes/role. i don't see them having a reason to replace him.

 

[mazmin]

Jets need to stop any idea of re-tooling. The re-build has barely started, and two superstars still need to be traded. Once the're gone, it's time to revamp the Jets D.

But since all the buying teams are against the cap, the Jets will need to play their vets, pump up their value and sell to highest bidder at TDL.

I hope we see solid top 4 minutes from Schmidt and Dillon before the new year. The top 4 needs to be JoMo, DeMelo, Pionk and Samberg over the next few seasons, with Heinola and hopefully Elias competing for that top 4 ice.

 

[WolfHouse]

Jets need to stop any idea of re-tooling. The re-build has barely started, and two superstars still need to be traded. Once the're gone, it's time to revamp the Jets D.

But since all the buying teams are against the cap, the Jets will need to play their vets, pump up their value and sell to highest bidder at TDL.

I hope we see solid top 4 minutes from Schmidt and Dillon before the new year. The top 4 needs to be JoMo, DeMelo, Pionk and Samberg over the next few seasons, with Heinola and hopefully Elias competing for that top 4 ice.

Looking at the xGF for Ramberg-Schmidt, I'm not sure I wouldn't keep that pairing together as our 2 second or perhaps 1st pairing... I really underestimated Samberg's impact - I'm still in favour of moving Samberg to the right side with Morrissey but...

Its still hard to see a scenario where the Jets can insert Heinola (even if he is Morrissey 2.0 into the lineup) - I don't see a Heinola/Pionk pairing working or even with Schmidt... its a real shame to get rid of Dillon instead of Pionk

2024-25
Samberg-Schmidt
Morrissey-DeMelo
Chisholm-Pionk (sheltered)
Salomondsson first callup

 

[surixon]

Looking at the xGF for Ramberg-Schmidt, I'm not sure I wouldn't keep that pairing together as our 2 second or perhaps 1st pairing... I really underestimated Samberg's impact - I'm still in favour of moving Samberg to the right side with Morrissey but...

Its still hard to see a scenario where the Jets can insert Heinola (even if he is Morrissey 2.0 into the lineup) - I don't see a Heinola/Pionk pairing working or even with Schmidt... its a real shame to get rid of Dillon instead of Pionk

2024-25
Samberg-Schmidt
Morrissey-DeMelo
Chisholm-Pionk (sheltered)
Salomondsson first callup

It's much harder to post good numbers against top comp. They feasted on other teams third and fourth lines for the most part. Not much different the DeMelo and Stanley back in the Canadian division.

 

[mazmin]

Looking at the xGF for Ramberg-Schmidt, I'm not sure I wouldn't keep that pairing together as our 2 second or perhaps 1st pairing... I really underestimated Samberg's impact - I'm still in favour of moving Samberg to the right side with Morrissey but...

Its still hard to see a scenario where the Jets can insert Heinola (even if he is Morrissey 2.0 into the lineup) - I don't see a Heinola/Pionk pairing working or even with Schmidt... its a real shame to get rid of Dillon instead of Pionk

2024-25
Samberg-Schmidt
Morrissey-DeMelo
Chisholm-Pionk (sheltered)
Salomondsson first callup

I appreciate the underlying metrics that suggest a Samberg-Schmidt pairing an effective option, but the Jets need to re-build, not play moneyball with their remaining vets.

Heinola prefers to play the right side of the ice and would pair well with Samberg. If his defensive game struggles, Samberg has proven himself on the right side. For two lefties they make a solid pair on paper.