The Jets D

WolfHouse

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Oct 4, 2020
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Yea we got spoiled from 2011 to 2016 on bigs wins with our 1st round picks but after the Laine pick our 1st rounds picks

2016 We missed on Stanley so far
2017 K Ves total miss
2018 traded away 1st for rental
2019 Heinola so far is a miss (From Trouba)
2019 traded away a 1st for Hayes


This block of missed opportunity with 1st round capital has created a hole. You don’t win ‘em all but this was our dark era. I am cheering for Heinola but he’s going into his draft +5 season now and not many players have an impact when it takes them this long to break in.


Now the good news is the Perfetti pick was a hit which stopped the almost half decade skid of 1st round misses. On top of that we have 4 more 1sts that have reasonable odds based on my opinion although it’s a bit early still.
The concern remains that 2016 was the start of the Hillier era and I believe the departure of Max Geise - could be wrong...

Since then the Jets have become a very mediocre drafting team

The Perfetti pick could be a hit... but right now Lundell and Jarvis have more games and more production...

Also the Rasmus Kupari signing at $1 million a year is great value @macmaroon
 
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GaryPoppins

A broken clock is right twice in a day
Sep 10, 2016
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The time to have trade him was prior to FA.

Think now its gonna be really difficult.

I didn't think there was a high % chance of Pionk being moved anyway. He seems to be a big locker-room guy that teammates like and that seems to be a highlighted trait among the team right now.
Yeah but his teammates will also see the absolute chaos he causes in his own end.
 

GaryPoppins

A broken clock is right twice in a day
Sep 10, 2016
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Even if Heinola plays on theMoose this season, there will be a spot opening up after Dillon's departure after or during or before this season.
The frustration is the Jets not having a defined plan. They seem to want to stay competitive which candidly isn’t realistic if they still are hoping to move on from 55 and 37. If indeed 55 & 37 move on, this team isn’t a playoff team. Why waste a year of Heinola again in the AHL. We know he was a top guy down there. He’s done his time and the results he’s put up has earned himself an NHL roster spot this year.
 

TS Quint

Stop writing “I mean” in your posts.
Sep 8, 2012
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But the Jets made their call years ago on these guys, IMO. I didn't understand the decisions to bring in a series of time-limited plugs over giving first Stan and then Heinola a decent run, and I don't get why Chevy took on a pricy player with so much term in Schmidt, who he must have known he'd not be able to move easily -- but so it goes.
This Is some pretty wild projection. When Stanley got his chance in a sheltered role he took advantage and got more. When Samberg got his chance in a sheltered role he took advantage and got more. As these two got more opportunities they continued to be reevaluated getting more or less responsibilities. They didn’t get blocked by any plugs. They got what they deserved.

Heinola has gotten his chances and hasn’t shown he could handle much. It’s the same process for all of them. It’s exactly the opposite of what you are saying. The Jets give opportunity and evaluate. If anything you seem like you made your call years ago with Heinola. He needs to show he deserves more. Just handing him a long run because he’s a first round draft pick or his minor league offensive production isn’t good for the Jets or even Heinola. No one is blocking Heinola but Heinola. If he is better than Schmitt he will play over Schmitt.
 

WolfHouse

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Oct 4, 2020
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This Is some pretty wild projection. When Stanley got his chance in a sheltered role he took advantage and got more. When Samberg got his chance in a sheltered role he took advantage and got more. As these two got more opportunities they continued to be reevaluated getting more or less responsibilities. They didn’t get blocked by any plugs. They got what they deserved.

Heinola has gotten his chances and hasn’t shown he could handle much. It’s the same process for all of them. It’s exactly the opposite of what you are saying. The Jets give opportunity and evaluate. If anything you seem like you made your call years ago with Heinola. He needs to show he deserves more. Just handing him a long run because he’s a first round draft pick or his minor league offensive production isn’t good for the Jets or even Heinola. No one is blocking Heinola but Heinola. If he is better than Schmitt he will play over Schmitt.
Only year guys were wrongly blocked was the Sbisa, Bitetto gong show... yes Heinola, Kova, Stanley would have been in over their head but one of them would have grabbed the bull by the horns...

I'm a big Heinola supporter but I wouldn't slate him in over anyone in our top 6 D right now - no coach in the NHL would imo
 

DRW204

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Dec 26, 2010
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Yeah but his teammates will also see the absolute chaos he causes in his own end.
OK and it doesn't seem to deter him from being likable off the ice among teammates. There's quite a few prominent players on this team that do not rate well either defensively.
 

TS Quint

Stop writing “I mean” in your posts.
Sep 8, 2012
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Only year guys were wrongly blocked was the Sbisa, Bitetto gong show... yes Heinola, Kova, Stanley would have been in over their head but one of them would have grabbed the bull by the horns...

I'm a big Heinola supporter but I wouldn't slate him in over anyone in our top 6 D right now - no coach in the NHL would imo
I don't think there is any evidence Heinola Or Kovacevic would have grabbed anything. Heinola is better now than he was then. Kovacevic is up to his potential as waiver wire fodder who can hold a space on one of the worst teams in the league.

This year, is the #6D a high bar on the Jets? I don't think so. Is beating out Stanley, Chisholm, Capobianco a high bar for a chance when there is an injury? I don't think so. He has a great chance this year to show he belongs. I hope he finally comes through.
The frustration is the Jets not having a defined plan. They seem to want to stay competitive which candidly isn’t realistic if they still are hoping to move on from 55 and 37. If indeed 55 & 37 move on, this team isn’t a playoff team. Why waste a year of Heinola again in the AHL. We know he was a top guy down there. He’s done his time and the results he’s put up has earned himself an NHL roster spot this year.
Come on. Being a good AHL player doesn't make him a NHL player. The question is if he has developed the necessary skills to be a NHL player. You can be a top end AHL player and not be good enough for the NHL.

You can evaluate players in the AHL. Heinola has had chances in the NHL and has been evaluated. If he's not passing the tests then you can't just give him a passing grade. It's not about "doing his time". This isn't high school.
 
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WolfHouse

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Oct 4, 2020
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I don't think there is any evidence Heinola Or Kovacevic would have grabbed anything. Heinola is better now than he was then. Kovacevic is up to his potential as waiver wire fodder who can hold a space on one of the worst teams in the league.

This year, is the #6D a high bar on the Jets? I don't think so. Is beating out Stanley, Chisholm, Capobianco a high bar for a chance when there is an injury? I don't think so. He has a great chance this year to show he belongs. I hope he finally comes through.
Jomo-Demelo
Dillon-Pionk
Samberg-Schmidt
Capo, Chisholm, Stan - not waiver exempt
Heinola - waiver exempt

Its a high bar... from a pure business perspective, Heinola will get his 7 games or whatever it is and be sent down - the ONLY way he sticks is if he's playing at a point a game and Jets are prepared to lose a player to keep him up
 

TS Quint

Stop writing “I mean” in your posts.
Sep 8, 2012
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Jomo-Demelo
Dillon-Pionk
Samberg-Schmidt
Capo, Chisholm, Stan - not waiver exempt
Heinola - waiver exempt

Its a high bar... from a pure business perspective, Heinola will get his 7 games or whatever it is and be sent down - the ONLY way he sticks is if he's playing at a point a game and Jets are prepared to lose a player to keep him up
I just don't agree at all with any of that.

If Heinola is better than Capo, Stan, Chisholm he will get what he deserves and not only if he reaches your overly hyperbolic bar. If hes putting up a PPG Pionk can get traded. Stan or Capobianco are expendables in any case.

This whole Heinola should get his NHL time regardless of what he has earned is over the top. I hope he comes in to camp and shows he has earned his spot. Not just being a good AHL player against AHL players in the preseason but actual good NHL level play that he has yet to show.
 
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Howard Chuck

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Jan 24, 2012
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Winnipeg
Ya those hits early on were part player part opportunity. They also played key roles with our roster turnover.

We drafted:

2011 - #1C, #3C
2012 - top pair RHD, vezina calibre goalie
2013 - top pair LHD
2014 - top 6 winger
2015 - top line winger
2016 - top 6 winger

I really like our current prospects, and though there is plenty of development needed, I believe we have drafted:

- a top line C/W in Perfetti
- two top 6 wingers in McGroarty and Barlow.
- top 9 winger in Chibrikov
- Not sure if we have two more top 9 C’s or W’s in Lucius and Lambert but they too are likely NHL’ers.
- potentially a top 4 RHD in Salmonsson
- potentially a starting goalie in DiVincentis

With young players like Perfetti, Vilardi, and Samberg, already making their mark in NHL somewhat and perhaps filling key roles on a contender I’m encouraged for the future.

One glaring hole as a current roster player or prospect is a legit top pairing RHD. Losing Trouba (who is borderline that player) and not replacing him with that calibre a player was problematic. I hope they are able to draft a ‘Trouba’ this coming draft, or a legit top pairing LHD that replaces Josh as a top pairing dman down the road.
I hate to sound like a cheerleader, but I still hold out hope that given the right chances, Heinola might just fill that hole.
 

nobody imp0rtant

Registered pessimist
May 23, 2018
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I hate to sound like a cheerleader, but I still hold out hope that given the right chances, Heinola might just fill that hole.
There are opportunities here to do that. :nod:

pothole-gif-1510542809.gif
 

Heldig

Registered User
Apr 12, 2002
17,653
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BC
Yea we got spoiled from 2011 to 2016 on bigs wins with our 1st round picks but after the Laine pick our 1st rounds picks

2016 We missed on Stanley so far
2017 K Ves total miss
2018 traded away 1st for rental
2019 Heinola so far is a miss (From Trouba)
2019 traded away a 1st for Hayes



This block of missed opportunity with 1st round capital has created a hole. You don’t win ‘em all but this was our dark era. I am cheering for Heinola but he’s going into his draft +5 season now and not many players have an impact when it takes them this long to break in.


Now the good news is the Perfetti pick was a hit which stopped the almost half decade skid of 1st round misses. On top of that we have 4 more 1sts that have reasonable odds based on my opinion although it’s a bit early still.
:eek3:

And there is reason enough the contender window closed in less than 2 years.
 
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BoneDocUK

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Oct 1, 2015
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This Is some pretty wild projection. When Stanley got his chance in a sheltered role he took advantage and got more. When Samberg got his chance in a sheltered role he took advantage and got more. As these two got more opportunities they continued to be reevaluated getting more or less responsibilities. They didn’t get blocked by any plugs. They got what they deserved.

Heinola has gotten his chances and hasn’t shown he could handle much. It’s the same process for all of them. It’s exactly the opposite of what you are saying. The Jets give opportunity and evaluate. If anything you seem like you made your call years ago with Heinola. He needs to show he deserves more. Just handing him a long run because he’s a first round draft pick or his minor league offensive production isn’t good for the Jets or even Heinola. No one is blocking Heinola but Heinola. If he is better than Schmitt he will play over Schmitt.

Not sure how you got this from my post. I made 2 points:

1) Bringing in the likes of Sbisa, Bitetto, Benn, etc. to provide below-replacement results while giving prospects minimal opportunity and a very short leash during those opportunities impacts development. So does "seasoning" prospects in the AH: who have nothing left to learn in the AHL. Not sure there's anything controversial there. I'd have said the same about Connor, JMo, Roslo, Stan, Samberg, Kocacevic, Perfetti etc.

2) In signing Schmidt with substantial salary and term Chevy took on cap risk and an additional risk in prospect development. You argue that the Jets will automatically play a capable prospect over a highly-paid vet player -- in your example, should that prospect show better than Schmidt. I am not at all sure they would, partly because of inbuilt bias in favour of the vet; as PoMo used to say, 'the vet wins the tie," and also because of the optics of paying a guy you worked hard to acquire 5.9 million to warm the bench. I don't think Bowness is that coach or the Jets that org, or we would have seen Schmidt benched for more games over his early tenure here and Pionk benched in favour of literally anyone on the basis of the utter crapness of most of his past 2 seasons. But he wasn't benched. Not once.

I like Samberg, and he finally got a good run of games despite his mistakes and the odd benching / pull and was able to grow into the role. That's how a young D should be developed. It's a far smarter management of assets than we've sometimes seen here.

This board and the world seem to agree that the Jets are a team that's going to succeed on the basis of their drafting and development plus the odd savvy trade or moneypuck FA acquisition. If that's the case, then they need to hit on as many prospects as possible and make as few mistakes as possible in their signings. Through the lens of asset management, it's way more efficient to have a Johnny Kovacevic playing sheltered 3rd line minutes for league minimum than to pay Schmidt to do the same for 5.9 mill, even if Schmidt can do some things JK can't. Schmidt on the Nino contract was a smart signing. Schmidt longterm at his salary and caphit wasn't, IMO, although he has played well with several younger players including Samberg of late.

I don't ultimately care if Heinola makes the Jets or doesn't, except insofar as the Jets benefit. But I get a bit tired of the "If prospect X were actually good he'd be playing" argument. There are all kinds of reasons players make it or don't make it. Some of it has to do with skill, effort and coachability but some has to do with team and coach needs and biases, levels of opportunity, luck and so forth. If development can help make a player, it can also screw one up.
 

Gabe Kupari

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Jul 11, 2013
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I feel Stanley doesn't sign. I feel Dillon is traded and its possible Nate might be also. Demelo Is a pending ufa so not convinced he's a guarantee to be here much longer either
 

BoneDocUK

Recovering hockey fandoc
Oct 1, 2015
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when he brought in schmidt and dillon he was thinking we can't play with 3/6 of our d-group being the likes of forbort, beaulieu and poolman (or sbisa, bitetto, beaulieu, poolman the year prior). and luckily he did b/c heinola has basically shown zilch since that season, along w/ Stanley not improving substantially.

He already had Dillon. We know from various reports that Chevy had tried to acquire Schmidt before. I have no issue with the deal apart from the term, which was always a risk.

And it was Chevy who brought those plugs in, and PoMo who played them. Were the absolute best D available to the Jets at the time, or was there some other plan in play that didn't work out? Could Stan or even Kovacevic have been promoted in place of one of the above? The Jets rolled out some apalling D for years -- was that the best they could do, given the cap and the market? Was it part of the "Let Helle get shelled for an hour and try to outscore 'em" system they seemed to adopt?

Definitely an interesting if frustrating period of Jets hockey.
 

Gabe Kupari

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Jul 11, 2013
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Stanley and Chisholm are last 2 RFAs I believe. No arb for Stanley likely means he's gonna sit out until he's traded, he won't accept a Jets offer. So I'm gonna assume he's not an option this season. Gone either way,trade or sit out

So.. Josh Samberg pionk demelo Dillon ville Chisholm Capo right now in my opinion

I think they move Dillon. Run ville and Chisholm on the 3rd pair. Waive Capo

Lhd are Josh Sammy and Ville/Chisholm
RHD are Demelo Pionk Schmidt

Rhd needs some work

Hello helle and or scheif trades

I'll predict 55 and Stan to nyr for b Schneider and a 1st maybe plus cap
Trouba 55 Wheeler reunion
 
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TS Quint

Stop writing “I mean” in your posts.
Sep 8, 2012
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6,105
Not sure how you got this from my post. I made 2 points:

1) Bringing in the likes of Sbisa, Bitetto, Benn, etc. to provide below-replacement results while giving prospects minimal opportunity and a very short leash during those opportunities impacts development. So does "seasoning" prospects in the AH: who have nothing left to learn in the AHL. Not sure there's anything controversial there. I'd have said the same about Connor, JMo, Roslo, Stan, Samberg, Kocacevic, Perfetti etc.

2) In signing Schmidt with substantial salary and term Chevy took on cap risk and an additional risk in prospect development. You argue that the Jets will automatically play a capable prospect over a highly-paid vet player -- in your example, should that prospect show better than Schmidt. I am not at all sure they would, partly because of inbuilt bias in favour of the vet; as PoMo used to say, 'the vet wins the tie," and also because of the optics of paying a guy you worked hard to acquire 5.9 million to warm the bench. I don't think Bowness is that coach or the Jets that org, or we would have seen Schmidt benched for more games over his early tenure here and Pionk benched in favour of literally anyone on the basis of the utter crapness of most of his past 2 seasons. But he wasn't benched. Not once.

I like Samberg, and he finally got a good run of games despite his mistakes and the odd benching / pull and was able to grow into the role. That's how a young D should be developed. It's a far smarter management of assets than we've sometimes seen here.

This board and the world seem to agree that the Jets are a team that's going to succeed on the basis of their drafting and development plus the odd savvy trade or moneypuck FA acquisition. If that's the case, then they need to hit on as many prospects as possible and make as few mistakes as possible in their signings. Through the lens of asset management, it's way more efficient to have a Johnny Kovacevic playing sheltered 3rd line minutes for league minimum than to pay Schmidt to do the same for 5.9 mill, even if Schmidt can do some things JK can't. Schmidt on the Nino contract was a smart signing. Schmidt longterm at his salary and caphit wasn't, IMO, although he has played well with several younger players including Samberg of late.

I don't ultimately care if Heinola makes the Jets or doesn't, except insofar as the Jets benefit. But I get a bit tired of the "If prospect X were actually good he'd be playing" argument. There are all kinds of reasons players make it or don't make it. Some of it has to do with skill, effort and coachability but some has to do with team and coach needs and biases, levels of opportunity, luck and so forth. If development can help make a player, it can also screw one up.
I'm not sure what you aren't clear on. You seem to have just doubled down. You still ignore the examples of other players like Samberg and Stanley who did get their chances, the same way Heinola has. I don't think I ever heard Maurice say the words "tie goes to the vet" even if he did I know I've heard Chevy say Vets won't block young players. I also said better than, not as good. Not only that but Bowness is the coach now who has shown here and in Dallas that he is perfectly capable of having young players take over for the vets.

I don't think there is much reality in this conspiracy. The only person holding Heinola down is Heinola.
 

surixon

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I'm not sure what you aren't clear on. You seem to have just doubled down. You still ignore the examples of other players like Samberg and Stanley who did get their chances, the same way Heinola has. I don't think I ever heard Maurice say the words "tie goes to the vet" even if he did I know I've heard Chevy say Vets won't block young players. I also said better than, not as good. Not only that but Bowness is the coach now who has shown here and in Dallas that he is perfectly capable of having young players take over for the vets.

I don't think there is much reality in this conspiracy. The only person holding Heinola down is Heinola.

The Jets have yet to integrate an offensive minded dmen right into an offensive minded role. Every dmen they have integrated had to start as a defensive minded player and wait years for an opportunity on the PP. Trouba and JoMo definitely moved into PP roles and offensive roles after some seasons but they had to start as suppression dmen while vets got the offensive and PP opportunities.

We are seeing the exact same thing now. The Jets are back to integrating big and physical defensive dmen due to perceived better d play. None of Logan/Snerg have gotten PP or offensive opportunities which follows past patterns.

Ville finds himself in unenviable spot where he likely has to morph his game completely to make the team ala JoMo and then wait a couple of seasons for a pp opportunity.

After enough time you can spot patterns in how this org operates. On the defensive development front they have continually shown a preference for size, physicality and defensive ability. Offensive ability has been something they have preferred to go out and acquire on the trade market, not develop in house.
 

blueandgoldguy

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Oct 8, 2010
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I have to think the value of Ville Heinola on the trade market is no more than a mid 2nd round draft pick...maybe with a small throw-in like a 5th rounder or later. He is entering his draft + five season and it looks like he has little to no chance of breaking into the top-6. He might have be the #7 d-man spending most of the season in the pressbox getting into the lineup when the inevitable injuries happen.

Hopefully he makes the best of it.
 

DannyGallivan

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Aug 25, 2017
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Stanley and Chisholm are last 2 RFAs I believe. No arb for Stanley likely means he's gonna sit out until he's traded, he won't accept a Jets offer. So I'm gonna assume he's not an option this season. Gone either way,trade or sit out

So.. Josh Samberg pionk demelo Dillon ville Chisholm Capo right now in my opinion

I think they move Dillon. Run ville and Chisholm on the 3rd pair. Waive Capo

Lhd are Josh Sammy and Ville/Chisholm
RHD are Demelo Pionk Schmidt

Rhd needs some work

Hello helle and or scheif trades

I'll predict 55 and Stan to nyr for b Schneider and a 1st maybe plus cap
Trouba 55 Wheeler reunion
That is not a playoff team’s defense. Ugh. Gotta keep Dillon.
 

TS Quint

Stop writing “I mean” in your posts.
Sep 8, 2012
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The Jets have yet to integrate an offensive minded dmen right into an offensive minded role. Every dmen they have integrated had to start as a defensive minded player and wait years for an opportunity on the PP. Trouba and JoMo definitely moved into PP roles and offensive roles after some seasons but they had to start as suppression dmen while vets got the offensive and PP opportunities.

We are seeing the exact same thing now. The Jets are back to integrating big and physical defensive dmen due to perceived better d play. None of Logan/Snerg have gotten PP or offensive opportunities which follows past patterns.

Ville finds himself in unenviable spot where he likely has to morph his game completely to make the team ala JoMo and then wait a couple of seasons for a pp opportunity.

After enough time you can spot patterns in how this org operates. On the defensive development front they have continually shown a preference for size, physicality and defensive ability. Offensive ability has been something they have preferred to go out and acquire on the trade market, not develop in house.
Well damn, that's a pretty steep hill to climb if you are expecting kids to knock Buff out of PP1. Don't know why you would be in such a hurry to think you can just replace him.....but they did integrate Trouba, Morrissey and Pionk, even Heinola got a little time on PP2. I'm not sure you any point here. It's not like Heinola is better than Morrissey or Pionk at this point.

I'm not understanding what you are wanting here. Are you upset that defensemen need to play some reasonable defense? Weren't Morrissey and Trouba pretty decent defensively at a fairly young age? I don't think they were forced into some.sort of role they weren't capable of. As young players they were used as a shutdown pair and excell which is much more of a compliment from the coach especially one who seems to have an old school rep like Maurice.

I haven't seen many scouting reports touting Stanley or Samberg as offensive defensemen or power play players. It would be strange if they were force out of their comfort zone and put into a PP spot. Who are you thinking they would replace on the PP?

Heinola, Stanley and Samberg were all in pretty similar positions over the past 3/4 years. Some have just proven better than others. There is no conspiracy. As they have been tested they have each gotten the appropriate next steps. Some have stepped up, some have had mixed results and some haven't passed the tests. I don't see any pattern other than each player has gotten what they have deserved.

I don't see any reason Heinola has deserved PP time over Pionk or Morrissey. The guy hasn't been able to play at NHL level 5 on 5 but they should just start cutting Morrissey's PP time for him?

Edit: counter to what you belive Trouba was 3rd in defense for PP in his 1st year.
 
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surixon

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Well damn, that's a pretty steep hill to climb if you are expecting kids to knock Buff out of PP1. Don't know why you would be in such a hurry to think you can just replace him.....but they did integrate Trouba, Morrissey and Pionk, even Heinola got a little time on PP2. I'm not sure you any point here. It's not like Heinola is better than Morrissey or Pionk at this point.

I'm not understanding what you are wanting here. Are you upset that defensemen need to play some reasonable defense? Weren't Morrissey and Trouba pretty decent defensively at a fairly young age? I don't think they were forced into some.sort of role they weren't capable of. As young players they were used as a shutdown pair and excell which is much more of a compliment from the coach especially one who seems to have an old school rep like Maurice.

I haven't seen many scouting reports touting Stanley or Samberg as offensive defensemen or power play players. It would be strange if they were force out of their comfort zone and put into a PP spot. Who are you thinking they would replace on the PP?

Heinola, Stanley and Samberg were all in pretty similar positions over the past 3/4 years. Some have just proven better than others. There is no conspiracy. As they have been tested they have each gotten the appropriate next steps. Some have stepped up, some have had mixed results and some haven't passed the tests. I don't see any pattern other than each player has gotten what they have deserved.

I don't see any reason Heinola has deserved PP time over Pionk or Morrissey. The guy hasn't been able to play at NHL level 5 on 5 but they should just start cutting Morrissey's PP time for him?

Edit: counter to what you belive Trouba was 3rd in defense for PP in his 1st year.

I'm talking about players being integrated in a way that plays to their strengths. Please show me where I said a player shouldn't be able to defend. As for roles its straight from Maurices mouth. He has stated numerous times that they had no room for an offensive dmen and that JoMo made the team because he blew them away with his ability to fulfill the role as a defensive dmen. That isn't the player JoMo was drafted to be but it was the player he needed to change his game to be to make the shoe. I'm also not talking about either taking Buffs spot on PP1, I'm talking about them being played behind Myers on PP2 despite both showing superior results in the spot PP minutes they got.

My point is you don't see the same thing upfront. When have Scheifele, Conner, Perfetti etc ever been asked to make the team as a defensive checking forward and work their way up? But that is exactly what we ask of our high end dmen. My point is that I think the org has a problem with regards to defensive development when it comes to dmen who bring offense first.

With regards to Ville he simply replaces Schmidt on PP 2 not Pionk. The team has run 2 dmen on PP2 going back years now.
 

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