The Jets D

[TS Quint]

I'm talking about players being integrated in a way that plays to their strengths. Please show me where I said a player shouldn't be able to defend. As for roles its straight from Maurices mouth. He has stated numerous times that they had no room for an offensive dmen and that JoMo made the team because he blew them away with his ability to fulfill the role as a defensive dmen. That isn't the player JoMo was drafted to be but it was the player he needed to change his game to be to make the shoe. I'm also not talking about either taking Buffs spot on PP1, I'm talking about them being played behind Myers on PP2 despite both showing superior results in the spot PP minutes they got.

My point is you don't see the same thing upfront. When have Scheifele, Conner, Perfetti etc ever been asked to make the team as a defensive checking forward and work their way up? But that is exactly what we ask of our high end dmen. My point is that I think the org has a problem with regards to defensive development when it comes to dmen who bring offense first.

With regards to Ville he simply replaces Schmidt on PP 2 not Pionk. The team has run 2 dmen on PP2 going back years now.

Youre just wrong. Trouba played ahead of Myers as a rookie. Maurice said he expected Morrissey to be able to do the offensive stuff but was amazed how good he was battling for pucks. Heinola has yet to show he can play without the puck, he has zero battle, sorry there's no room for a designated PP specialist on A NHL team even if he were better than Morrissey, Pionk or Schmidt which he has not shown to be either. Heinola needs to be better. He deserves nothing handed to him over better players.

Please quote Maurice where he said he Has no room for an offensive defensemen because there needs to be some context there especially if you are relating that to Morrissey.

When you start comparing Heinola to Connor, Scheifele and Perfetti you have completely lost the plot.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I feel Stanley doesn't sign. I feel Dillon is traded and its possible Nate might be also. Demelo Is a pending ufa so not convinced he's a guarantee to be here much longer either

Stanley doesn't really have any alternative. He has no bargaining power. He can hold out, but that won't do anything for him.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm not sure what you aren't clear on. You seem to have just doubled down. You still ignore the examples of other players like Samberg and Stanley who did get their chances, the same way Heinola has. I don't think I ever heard Maurice say the words "tie goes to the vet" even if he did I know I've heard Chevy say Vets won't block young players. I also said better than, not as good. Not only that but Bowness is the coach now who has shown here and in Dallas that he is perfectly capable of having young players take over for the vets.

I don't think there is much reality in this conspiracy. The only person holding Heinola down is Heinola.

It isn't a conspiracy. It might be bias.
Heinola has not had a chance like others have had. He has had a chance where he is benched or press boxed for every mistake. That is no way to develop a prospect.

Maurice may or may not have said those words, IDK. But he has behaved that way - and beyond. Chevy says that vets won't block young players, but it keeps happening on his watch.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

There's the possibility ppl are seriously over rating ville like they have done since he was drafted

 

[DRW204]

He already had Dillon. We know from various reports that Chevy had tried to acquire Schmidt before. I have no issue with the deal apart from the term, which was always a risk.

And it was Chevy who brought those plugs in, and PoMo who played them. Were the absolute best D available to the Jets at the time, or was there some other plan in play that didn't work out? Could Stan or even Kovacevic have been promoted in place of one of the above? The Jets rolled out some apalling D for years -- was that the best they could do, given the cap and the market? Was it part of the "Let Helle get shelled for an hour and try to outscore 'em" system they seemed to adopt?

Definitely an interesting if frustrating period of Jets hockey.

Schmidt and Dillon were acquired within a day of each other. the point was outside of demelo, morrissey and pionk they didn't have much talent. so they got better players in. that's 2 solid dmen he got and have performed better than what heinola or stanley have provided since the 2021 season.

i dont disagree the signings are on chevy or perhaps heinola and co. could have gotten some looks earlier, however, we likely are not better off and his game now doesn't provide any confidence that it would've been much better back then. also perhaps they were not ready for nhl minutes early on. stanley's game peaked in the CDN Division as well. so minus schmdit and dillon we have heinola and stanley as regulars, Yikes.

 

[ps241]

Youre just wrong. Trouba played ahead of Myers as a rookie. Maurice said he expected Morrissey to be able to do the offensive stuff but was amazed how good he was battling for pucks. Heinola has yet to show he can play without the puck, he has zero battle, sorry there's no room for a designated PP specialist on A NHL team even if he were better than Morrissey, Pionk or Schmidt which he has not shown to be either. Heinola needs to be better. He deserves nothing handed to him over better players.

Please quote Maurice where he said he Has no room for an offensive defensemen because there needs to be some context there especially if you are relating that to Morrissey.

When you start comparing Heinola to Connor, Scheifele and Perfetti you have completely lost the plot.

What are you basing your opinion on of Trouba playing ahead of Myers as a rookie?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

There's the possibility ppl are seriously over rating ville like they have done since he was drafted

Definitely, though we haven't seen him for a long enough stretch at any time to be able to make that assessment. Can't rule out coaches having seen enough though.

 

[TS Quint]

It isn't a conspiracy. It might be bias.
Heinola has not had a chance like others have had. He has had a chance where he is benched or press boxed for every mistake. That is no way to develop a prospect.

Maurice may or may not have said those words, IDK. But he has behaved that way - and beyond. Chevy says that vets won't block young players, but it keeps happening on his watch.

Yet Samberg and Stanley got their chances over the same period. If you are going to remove the idea of proper evaluation it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Why are they picking on Heinola while everyone else seems to get chances?

Putting prospects in to positions to fail att the expense of the team is no way to develop prospects.

 

[DRW204]

I'm talking about players being integrated in a way that plays to their strengths. Please show me where I said a player shouldn't be able to defend. As for roles its straight from Maurices mouth. He has stated numerous times that they had no room for an offensive dmen and that JoMo made the team because he blew them away with his ability to fulfill the role as a defensive dmen. That isn't the player JoMo was drafted to be but it was the player he needed to change his game to be to make the shoe. I'm also not talking about either taking Buffs spot on PP1, I'm talking about them being played behind Myers on PP2 despite both showing superior results in the spot PP minutes they got.

My point is you don't see the same thing upfront. When have Scheifele, Conner, Perfetti etc ever been asked to make the team as a defensive checking forward and work their way up? But that is exactly what we ask of our high end dmen. My point is that I think the org has a problem with regards to defensive development when it comes to dmen who bring offense first.

With regards to Ville he simply replaces Schmidt on PP 2 not Pionk. The team has run 2 dmen on PP2 going back years now.

of course you do not see the same upfront. like what are we doing here. comparing fwds notably wingers to responsibilities of defenseman? forgive a coach for asking DEFENSEman to show some level of competency defensively. maybe if heinola's offense netted out positive vs his defensive abilities they would give him a bit more rope, however that's not been the case.

 

[DRW204]

There's the possibility ppl are seriously over rating ville like they have done since he was drafted

pre-draft and his AHL numbers are both good but he has not been good in the NHL. he just might be a v good AHL dman and that's it .

 

[TS Quint]

What are you basing your opinion on of Trouba playing ahead of Myers as a rookie?

Read that wrong, Myers wasn't there. But to the point of the poster saying the Jets dont ever intergrate young players into offensive spots Trouba walked on to the Jets at the #3 option on the PP as a rookie.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yet Samberg and Stanley got their chances over the same period. If you are going to remove the idea of proper evaluation it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Why are they picking on Heinola while everyone else seems to get chances?

Putting prospects in to positions to fail att the expense of the team is no way to develop prospects.

They are not picking on Heinola. But they are biased toward big, D first Dmen. Sam and Stan are that. Ville is not. Both Stan and Sam were allowed to make mistakes and continue playing. Ville was not.

Ville indicated after last season that he knew what he needed to work on and was going to dedicate himself to improving in those areas this off-season. Lets hope he comes in to TC and blows the doors off. Then this all becomes water under the bridge.

 

[TS Quint]

They are not picking on Heinola. But they are biased toward big, D first Dmen. Sam and Stan are that. Ville is not. Both Stan and Sam were allowed to make mistakes and continue playing. Ville was not.

Ville indicated after last season that he knew what he needed to work on and was going to dedicate himself to improving in those areas this off-season. Lets hope he comes in to TC and blows the doors off. Then this all becomes water under the bridge.

We can agree on the second paragraph. The first one sounds like a conspiracy.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

We can agree on the second paragraph. The first one sounds like a conspiracy.

Conspiracy is overt, deliberate. Bias is subtle, unintentional. Really no similarity at all, except possibly in the result. It would be like, I have nothing against the kid. I just like the big guy better.

 

[Weezeric]

They are not picking on Heinola. But they are biased toward big, D first Dmen. Sam and Stan are that. Ville is not. Both Stan and Sam were allowed to make mistakes and continue playing. Ville was not.

Ville indicated after last season that he knew what he needed to work on and was going to dedicate himself to improving in those areas this off-season. Lets hope he comes in to TC and blows the doors off. Then this all becomes water under the bridge.

The Jets are biased toward big defencemen…. *looks at the roster and sees Morrissey, Demelo, Pionk, Schmidt all at 6ft or smaller*….

 

[DRW204]

samberg and stanley have both been better than heinola in the nhl, and the Jets do not bleed goals-against when they're on the ice comparatively. that's why they have play over him. it's not complicated.

They are not picking on Heinola. But they are biased toward big, D first Dmen. Sam and Stan are that. Ville is not. Both Stan and Sam were allowed to make mistakes and continue playing. Ville was not.

Ville indicated after last season that he knew what he needed to work on and was going to dedicate himself to improving in those areas this off-season. Lets hope he comes in to TC and blows the doors off. Then this all becomes water under the bridge.

 

[TS Quint]

Conspiracy is overt, deliberate. Bias is subtle, unintentional. Really no similarity at all, except possibly in the result. It would be like, I have nothing against the kid. I just like the big guy better.

Its a conspiracy when you ignore the more likely answer of Samberg and Stanley earned their opportunities when Heinola hasn't. Really I'm not hearing much in terms of how Heinola has earned anything. For the most part people are just wanting to give him the old Vesalienen unearned run of games before he heads back home.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The Jets are biased toward big defencemen…. *looks at the roster and sees Morrissey, Demelo, Pionk, Schmidt all at 6ft or smaller*….

Good point. Sometimes it seems like they have that bias. Other times, not so much. Could be Chevy leaning one way, coach leaning the other. Or that they like like big shutdown Dmen and smaller offensive Dmen. Or maybe they don't have that bias at all.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

samberg and stanley have both been better than heinola in the nhl, and the Jets do not bleed goals-against when they're on the ice comparatively. that's why they have play over him. it's not complicated.

I think it is more complicated than that. Both Samberg and Stanley started off badly but improved. Heinola has never been given the chance to play through that initial phase. Whether he would have if given the chance, or not, is unknown.

I don't disagree that he has failed to grab the opportunity, what little opportunity he has been given. He has been weak defensively and not very assertive offensively either. He needs to be better - and he needs to be allowed to make mistakes, like everybody else.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Its a conspiracy when you ignore the more likely answer of Samberg and Stanley earned their opportunities when Heinola hasn't. Really I'm not hearing much in terms of how Heinola has earned anything. For the most part people are just wanting to give him the old Vesalienen unearned run of games before he heads back home.

He has earned a run of games by excelling in the AHL. He has earned that run more so than either Samberg or Stanley did. No one earns that first run of games until they get that first run of games except the same way Heinola has, by excelling lower down.

You are saying he needs to be a plus player right from the first game of the run. Who else does that? It is the same thing that young people run into looking for a job. You can't have the job because you don't have experience. You can't get experience until you get the job. Heinola has done the training. Now he needs to be allowed to gain experience doing the job.

 

[DRW204]

I think it is more complicated than that. Both Samberg and Stanley started off badly but improved. Heinola has never been given the chance to play through that initial phase. Whether he would have if given the chance, or not, is unknown.

I don't disagree that he has failed to grab the opportunity, what little opportunity he has been given. He has been weak defensively and not very assertive offensively either. He needs to be better - and he needs to be allowed to make mistakes, like everybody else.

it really is not that complicated

 

[KingBogo]

They are not picking on Heinola. But they are biased toward big, D first Dmen. Sam and Stan are that. Ville is not. Both Stan and Sam were allowed to make mistakes and continue playing. Ville was not.

Ville indicated after last season that he knew what he needed to work on and was going to dedicate himself to improving in those areas this off-season. Lets hope he comes in to TC and blows the doors off. Then this all becomes water under the bridge.

Not sure if it is accurate to say the Jets are biased towards big defensive first D Men as there hasn’t been enough of a sample size as we have drafted so few defenders that have panned out. I can think of only 4 defensemen in 12 years that we drafted that have played regularly. Trouba, Morrissey, Stanley and Samberg. Niku was given a shot and flamed out. So it is pretty much a split in styles. The Jets have also been spit on the D Men acquired in other ways.

 

[surixon]

Youre just wrong. Trouba played ahead of Myers as a rookie. Maurice said he expected Morrissey to be able to do the offensive stuff but was amazed how good he was battling for pucks. Heinola has yet to show he can play without the puck, he has zero battle, sorry there's no room for a designated PP specialist on A NHL team even if he were better than Morrissey, Pionk or Schmidt which he has not shown to be either. Heinola needs to be better. He deserves nothing handed to him over better players.

Please quote Maurice where he said he Has no room for an offensive defensemen because there needs to be some context there especially if you are relating that to Morrissey.

When you start comparing Heinola to Connor, Scheifele and Perfetti you have completely lost the plot.

Myers wasn't on the team Trouba's rookie year. He joined partway through his second year. The year Trouba was shackled to Stuart on the bottom pairing.

Once Myers got here mid February he garnered the second most pp ice time per game at 2:55 minutes per game the rest of the way in. Trouba was 4th on dmen with 1:44 minutes per game that stretch.

2015-16: Myers 2nd with 2:16 minutes per game, Trouba 4th with 1:17 minutes per game.

16-17: Myers 2nd 1:44 per game, Trouba 3rd 1:42 per game. Morrissey 5th at 0:37 per game.

17-18: Myers (2nd) 2:04, Trouba (3rd) 1:28, and JoMo 4th at 0:20

18-19 Trouba (2nd) 2:04, JoMo 3rd 1:45


So yes the vets played over the kids on the pp. It took until Trouba's 6th year to steal away Myers role. It took JoMo until his third year to actually get a regular PP shift. He got nothing on the pp the two years prior.

As for Maurices comments im not going back 6 years to find them. I'm sure numerous posters on here can substantiate them.

Conner was drafted 17th overall and Heinola 20th overall. There isn't much difference in eithers draft pedigree. Heinola has excelled at every level below the NHL. His pre NHL pedigree isn't much different then Morrissey's (not saying he comes close to JoMo).

Are Pionk and Schmidt better players? Pionk has been absolute crap the last few years and drags down every partner he plays with. Could Ville do much worse? Sure Ville needs to be better but he hasn't been given the same runway that players like Stan and Snerg were given to make mistakes and grow into NHL players (well Snerg grew into one, tree hasn't).

 

[surixon]

Its a conspiracy when you ignore the more likely answer of Samberg and Stanley earned their opportunities when Heinola hasn't. Really I'm not hearing much in terms of how Heinola has earned anything. For the most part people are just wanting to give him the old Vesalienen unearned run of games before he heads back home.

Stanley earned his opportunity? How do you figure other then being big. He was mediocre in both junior and the AHL and yet gets a spot due to the fact he's big. It's laughable to actually believe he earned anything based on play.

You don't think there is a size bias in terms of dmen integration?

Trouba 6"3 203 lbs
Chariot 6"3 232 lbs
JoMo 6" 195 lbs
Poolman 6"2 199lbs
Stanley 6"7 228 lbs
Samberg 6"3 190 lbs

So just a coincidence that every dmen sans JoMo integrated to an NHL dmen is 6"2 and up?

Pionk doesn't count from a development angle. He was not drafted, developed or integrated into the NHL by the Jets. He was traded for after being signed and integrated by the Rangers.

 

[TS Quint]

He has earned a run of games by excelling in the AHL. He has earned that run more so than either Samberg or Stanley did. No one earns that first run of games until they get that first run of games except the same way Heinola has, by excelling lower down.

You are saying he needs to be a plus player right from the first game of the run. Who else does that? It is the same thing that young people run into looking for a job. You can't have the job because you don't have experience. You can't get experience until you get the job. Heinola has done the training. Now he needs to be allowed to gain experience doing the job.

You’re just being disingenuous now.

you want me to start listing players who excel in the AHL but aren’t NHL players? It’s not the same game.